15326 Thursday, 9 June 2011
[The accused entered court]
--- Upon commencing at 9.09 a.m.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] The Court is in session. Good morning everyone in and around the courtroom. I'd like to greet the Defence, General Tolimir, Mr. Gajic, the OTP, Mr. Vanderpuye, and his associate, and all the people assisting us in and around this courtroom. As you may have noticed, the Presiding Judge is not here today. He is away for medical reasons.
MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Apologies, Your Honour. Mr. Tolimir is having some technical problems with his headphones. He is not receiving any sound.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well. The usher will check what the matter is.
MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] It's been solved, Mr. President. We apologise for this interruption.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you. I said that, pursuant to Rule 15 bis of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, the Trial Chamber is satisfied that it can sit as is fit, pursuant to the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, and in light of the seniority of the Judges here, I have the honour to be the Presiding Judge today. We shall continue with the examination-in-chief of the Prosecutor this morning, Mr. Vanderpuye, but prior to that, we shall bring the 15327 witness in the courtroom, and we need to move into closed session. Registrar, please, closed session.
(10 lines redacted)
THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session, Your Honours. Thank you.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. We are in open session once again.
Good morning, Witness. Witness, Zoran Malinic, let me remind you that the statement you gave yesterday to tell the truth and nothing but the truth, the solemn declaration that you gave today, still applies today.
WITNESS: ZORAN MALINIC [Resumed]
[Witness answered through interpreter]
JUDGE MINDUA: I shall give to the floor to the Prosecutor, 15328 Mr. Vanderpuye, for the rest of his examination-in-chief. Mr. Vanderpuye, you have the floor.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President. Good morning to you, Your Honours. Good morning, everyone. Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye: [Continued]
Q. And good morning to you, Mr. Malinic. We had yesterday P663B, I believe, which was the intercept in e-court.
MR. VANDERPUYE: If I could continue with that, please. And if we could please go to the next page in the English, and I think we stay on the same page in the B/C/S. It's a bit difficult to see here. Okay.
Q. I had begun asking you, sir, about the conversation that continues with Beara and Zoka, and you will notice in the middle of the page in the English, and I think just about the middle also in the B/C/S, you'll see a reference to, "About 500." It says:
"What's new?" Beara says:
"What's new?" And the answer is:
"Well easy, there are about 500." After that, you'll see that Beara says:
"Excellent, man." Zoka says:
"At least it looks like 20. One group got through during the night up there, behind our backs."
The reference to the group that got through during that night, is 15329 that a reference to the night of the 12th, into the 13th of July?
A. If this conversation took place at quarter past 10.00, as it says here, I suppose it happened the previous night, between the 12th and 13th of July, 1995.
Q. All right. So from this intercept, it's clear that there were groups moving through that area on the night of the 12th, at least into the 13th.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] General Tolimir.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'd like to greet all those present and may peace be in this house and these proceedings completed in keeping with God's will and not my own. I'd like to greet Mr. Malinic and wish him a pleasant stay. When this document was shown to him yesterday, he said that he couldn't see people in Kasaba because it was 8 kilometres away. Now we have another reference here. There's a mention of a night and some people who went behind someone's back. Is it a group from Kasaba or some other group? It seems that things got mixed up here during this electronic intercept. It seems now he's -- it's not clear whether he is talking about Kasaba or Konjevic Polje.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Vanderpuye.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I think that the answer that the witness has given is clear, given the context in which this intercept arises. We have before us the transcript from yesterday. The conversation began with Mr. Lucic, 15330 Captain Lucic, the witness's deputy. The conversation specifically concerned 400, as Beara put it, balijas, in the area of Konjevic Polje, and this is simply the continuation of that same conversation. So I think the context is clear from the intercept itself. And certainly if General Tolimir wants to know more about the intercept, he's welcome to do that when he cross-examines the witness.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] General Tolimir.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I apologise to Mr. Vanderpuye. I don't want to ask the witness anything at all about this intercept. I just asked the Prosecutor, given the fact that he is tendering documents about two locations, one of which was 8 kilometres away, and the other was Kasaba. Did he do this on purpose, or does one conversation stem from another? This is what I wanted to ask the Prosecutor, not the Prosecution witness.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, perhaps we could have more information on the part of the witness, because I believe that he took part in this conversation.
MR. VANDERPUYE: That's correct, Mr. President. And that's exactly where I'm going with this document. But it takes a little time to get there. I can't do it instantly in one question. And that's the reason why I've asked the questions in the order and in the sequence that I have. If I can proceed, maybe we can clarify this as we go.
Q. Sir, you see here a reference to 500. This is immediately after Beara gets you on the line. He says: 15331 "Hi, Zoka."
And then it says: "What's new?"
And you say: "Well easy, there are about 500."
You see that in the intercept? Should be about midway through.
A. I can see it.
Q. And then I asked you about this reference here to one group got through during the night. First let me ask you, at about 10.00 in the morning, what was the estimate that you got from the people that you sent out earlier that day as to how many people were in the vicinity in the hills that were coming down to surrender? You said you sent three people out and they brought back prisoners, and they told you that they were a large group of soldiers, I believe you said, in the hills. How many did they tell you were there, around that time?
A. I'd like to correct something you said. You said I sent out three soldiers, and yesterday I said I had sent a group of five soldiers, if I remember correctly, who came back with three prisoners. It was around 6.30 or 7.00, although I can't recall exactly when I sent the group out and at what time the prisoners were brought in; that is to say, the first three prisoners brought to the barracks. The assessment of the first group I sent to reconnoitre was that there were many, as many as several hundred along that route. They saw them crossing the road between Konjevic Polje and Nova Kasaba.
Q. So what you see here are 500, is that inconsistent with what you 15332 were told by the five -- or one of the five soldiers that you sent out earlier that morning?
A. It is not inconsistent with it. They said there were several hundred. If this conversation took place at 10.15, as recorded here, this entails a different situation. It's a different time in relation to the time I received this original piece of information. If that group at 6.30 or 7.00 in the morning on the 13th said that there were several hundred, then the time we are discussing, at 10.15, is already a different time and the number of people may well have changed in that area.
Those were all assessments. It was impossible, due to the terrain they were in, to see how many exactly there were. It was also because of the direction from which the forces of the 28th Division came. It was for that reason that we -- we could not assess how many forces they had at their disposal during their breakthrough to Cerska.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] One moment, Mr. Prosecutor. Registrar, I believe that the document we have on the screen should not be broadcast. Is that right?
THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that correct. This document is confidential and should not be broadcast. Aside from that, it can be discussed in the courtroom. Thank you.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well. So this document may be displayed on the screen inside the courtroom but not broadcast. Thank you.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. 15333 Let's go to the next page in the English, please. And I think we will have to go to the next page in the B/C/S also.
Q. You see at the top of the page in the English: "They're close to 200."
And that immediately follows a remark about Konjevic Polje. Beara says:
"Yes." And then he says:
"About 200, right, got through?" And you say:
"Yes, yes. And it's like, like they're in groups of five to six or four."
And he says: "Uh-huh, okay."
Do you see that, first of all, in the intercept?
Q. And does it comport with your memory, your recollection of the events?
A. Could I be allowed to read the part before and immediately after this so as to have the entire context and to be able to provide a more precise answer?
Q. Let's do that then. We'll go to the previous page in the English. And I think we'll probably be on the same page in the B/C/S. But you can see this conversation unfolds after there's a reference to the group that goes through during the night. 15334 Beara says:
"Uh-huh." And then it says -- there's an unclear part where you say: "Forces to come, so we could resolve this problem ..." He says:
"Yes, yes." And then there's some colloquy that's unheard.
And you say: "... they're killing ..."
And he says: "Well excellent. Just let them continue ..."
You say: "That's it. That's the situation ..."
And then it says: "Bye ..."
He says: "Hey."
And you say: "Konjevic Polje."
And then it continues, as I've just mentioned, about the 200 getting through in groups of five, six, and four, that we see on the next page.
Does that help put things in context for you?
A. Perhaps we should continue. It says: 15335 "Well, I am going to tell those in Zvornik."
I suppose it meant that, to my left, I had set up a blockade line with the forces I had available, but it did not close the gap. And there was still an area that was not covered to my left, if I faced the enemy; that is to say, between Nova Kasaba and Konjevic Polje. That area was not cut off. And it was because of that that such groups could freely get through. That is how I understand this part of the conversation. I apologise. When you were reading a moment ago, when you mentioned what I said, not killing but killing themselves, and there are many wounded. And then Beara asked me, What? They're killing each other? And I didn't receive that part of the intercept, at least not in my language.
Q. Okay. Let me show you another intercept.
MR. VANDERPUYE: That's P2205.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] General Tolimir.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I apologise. While we still have this intercept on the screen, Mr. Vanderpuye should clear something up. Now we have a third situation in one conversation. First, it was Konjevic Polje, then Nova Kasaba, and now it seems we have a third person participating. So is this a compilation of three conversations or are these the same collocutors all the way through?
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Prosecutor, I believe this is an important clarification.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President. 15336 At the beginning of the intercept we can see clearly that the collocutors are Beara and Captain Lucic. They're denoted and L and B, respectively.
In the middle of the conversation, Beara asked to speak to Zoka. Zoka is the nickname for Zoran Malinic, the commander of the military police battalion of the 65th Protection Regiment. And what I've just gotten through asking the witness about is the conversation, and you'll see that that is denoted as Z -- this part of the conversation, the collocutors are denoted as Z and B, respectively, Zoka and Beara, and you'll see that from the end of the intercept. So I think the collocutors are quite clearly denoted in the intercept. The transition point is very clear because Beara says:
"Let me talk to him." And then it says:
"Yes." And it's on the second page in the -- in the English, and then Zoka gets on the line. And he says:
"Hi, Zoka." So it is very clear that the collocutors have changed at that point and then we have this whole conversation about 500, 200 that have gotten through, some that have gotten through that night and the fact that some of them are killing each other and that Beara says: "Excellent, let them continue."
So I think it's very clear and the intercept speaks for itself. I should add also that the intercept is in evidence and that the 15337 person who took the intercept offered evidence before this -- before this Tribunal, before this Court. And if there was any question about the sequence, the collocutors, the context of the intercept, I'm certain that General Tolimir would have addressed those issues in the cross-examination of that witness.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I believe you are satisfied with the Prosecutor's answer, General Tolimir?
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. It does not satisfied me, because I did not receive an explanation who the participants in this part of the conversation are, when they say that they were killing each other. Is this the same conversation also recorded at 10.00, or subsequently? In any case, I don't want to affect the further course of the Prosecutor's examination.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] That's precisely what I was about to say. If you so wish, you can address this again during your cross-examination.
Mr. Prosecutor, I have a question for you. Regarding page 8 of the transcript. I noticed that the witness said, on line 11 through 14, on page 8 of the transcript that in his language, the intercept states that Colonel Beara purportedly said, Let them kill each other and kill themselves.
There is a difference between the text in B/C/S and the text in English. Can we ask the witness to read this out so that we have a translation of it. 15338
MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President. Let me see if I can find the exact point in the B/C/S.
It should be on page 2 of the B/C/S, and it's just above where it says Konjevic Polje, which is about, looks to me about 12 or 13 lines down. And we can start probably around line -- line 2 where it says, "Yes, yes" in the intercept.
Q. If can you read that out, Mr. Malinic, perhaps that will --
A. Yes, certainly. Beara:
"Yes, yes." Then Zoka or Zoran:
"Because I can't." Then Beara:
"Well, yes. It's a clear thing." When we have three dots, these are probably parts that were inaudible or that were not recorded, so not the entire context is in the conversation.
Then Zoka: "Because here and then ... they are killing themselves. There are many wounded."
And then Beara: "What? They're killing each other?
Then no answer by Zoka, or, rather, there are three dots, probably not recorded.
And then Beara says: 15339 "Uh-huh," which means I must have explained something. And then Zoka says:
"Killing," with three dots before and after. Then Beara:
"Excellent. Let them continue like that. Fuck it." Zoran:
"That's it. That's how it is. That's what the situation is. I am, then three dots."
Beara: "Bye then."
That's the part of the conversation. Should I continue?
Zoran: No answer.
MR. VANDERPUYE: I don't -- is that satisfactory, Mr. President, or ...
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, that's fine, unless one of the parties would like to add something to this.
Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. What I'd like to show the witness is P2205.
And just for the Court's information, the previous exhibit that I showed, P663, what I showed was P663B, there is also a P663A which is a handwritten or notebook version of this intercept. And the passages that the witness has just referred to are, in fact, reflected in the transcript of the handwritten intercept. So we have two different 15340 translations of two different documents reflecting exactly the same thing but the translations are somewhat different.
Q. Here we have an intercept, sir, that's recorded at 10.15 at the bottom of this page in English. And can you see here that it refers to Major Malinic, the commander of the 65th Protection Motorised Regiment Armoured Battalion, and it says that he and Colonel Pero Salapura, VRS security service, are at the football field in Kasaba village. It says: "18 kilometres to the north-west of Srebrenica where they are receiving the arrested Muslims. There are around 500 prisoners there at the moment. As for the weapons, around 30 machine-guns were confiscated. General Mladic is currently in Bratunac."
Were you with -- first of all, do you know who Colonel Salapura is, or was, back in July 1995?
A. I apologise. Before I answer your question, you said around ten machine-guns but the B/C/S version says around 30 machine-guns.
Q. Thank you. I believe I said 30 and maybe the transcript doesn't reflect that.
In any event, do you know who Colonel Salapura is or was back in July 1995?
A. Colonel Salapura was at the command, or, rather, the Main Staff of the VRS. And according to my knowledge, he was discharging the duty of the security officer. He was the chief of security service, to be more precise.
Q. Were you with him on 13 July 1995, as indicated here in the intercept? 15341
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Gajic.
MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, on page 13, line 6, it says, "He was the chief of security service." I think that the witness said "intelligence service."
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] That's what I heard in French also.
Let's ask the witness to clarify. Witness, please, who was Colonel Salapura in July 1995?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to the information I had, Colonel Salapura was the chief of intelligence service at the VRS Main Staff.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] There we have it. Thank you. The Prosecutor.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
Q. Let me ask you again, Mr. Malinic. Were you with Colonel Salapura, as is indicated here, on the football field at around 10.00 on 13 July 1995?
A. It's highly probable that Colonel Salapura was in the Nova Kasaba sector. Whether he was at the barracks or at the football field, this is something I cannot confirm with certainty. But I would pay -- point your attention to this. I cannot talk with Colonel Beara at 10.15 from my office, because I only had a telephone at my office at the school, and be, at the same time, when I'm talking with Colonel Beara at the football field, at 10.15 hours. It can be either one or the other. I could not 15342 have been in two different places at one and the same time.
Q. Did you see Colonel Salapura in and around that area? You said that the school was 300 metres away from the football field. That's not a very large distance. Did you see Colonel Salapura around 10.00 on the 13th of July 1995? And when I say "around 10.00," I don't mean 10.02 or 10.05. I mean 10.00.
A. I'm sorry. It says here the 13th of July, 1995, at 1015, 924. And on the basis of this document, I'm answering to your questions. I apologise if I did something wrong. I said that there is high probability that Colonel Salapura was at Kasaba. Whether he was at the barracks or on the football field, that is something I cannot confirm with 100 per cent certainty and say, Yes, he was for sure at 10.00 in Kasaba or on the football field and that I met him and talked to him. It is highly probable that in the course of the 13th of July, he was in the Nova Kasaba sector. But at what time, I'm not sure I could say that with 100 per cent certainty, what the time was.
Q. Okay. I'd like to show you P105.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Gajic.
MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would just ask the Prosecutor for an explanation. As Exhibit P2205 in the Serbian version only contains one paragraph but in the English version, I have just checked in e-court, it has much more text.
Could we just have an explanation for the record what this is about.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Vanderpuye. 15343
MR. VANDERPUYE: I don't know if Mr. Gajic is referring to the -- I think you're referring to the translation of the document that's in evidence? I believe the reason for it is because this translation applies to more than one intercept, and so you see the translation of other intercepts in addition to the intercept that's in the B/C/S. And the one that I'm drawing the witness's attention to, specifically, is the one at 10.15, as he pointed out, which corresponds to the B/C/S translation -- I mean the B/C/S transcript on the left side of the -- of the screen.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Gajic, that -- we are all able to see this on the screen.
In the English, we see an intercept at five minutes past 9.00 and another one at 10.15.
In B/C/S, on the left-hand side of the screen, we can also see the conversation that took place at 10.15 and that is what we have been focussing on.
What do you think of this?
MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. I just wanted to have this clarified for the record so that later on there wouldn't be any problems during the use of this exhibit and when presenting final arguments or for any other purpose.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Fine, thank you. That's been settled.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. 15344 I'd like to show the witness P105. Yeah, okay. And if I could focus just in the middle of this map. We have to go down, please. That's right where the circle is, and the arrow. Yes, please. If you can blow that area up. And it will have to be a little bit bigger, right there. And let's move the screen -- let's centre the arrow part of it a little bit more. That's it. And we'll blow up that point where you are right now, blow that up a little bit. Yeah. Okay. And if we could just see the top part of the screen a little bit better. That's -- a little bit more. Thank you.
Q. Do you recognise what you see in front of you now, Mr. Malinic? And if you don't, that's okay. I have another map I can use.
A. No. I see that this shows the combat operations and the breakthrough from encirclement. I can judge that by the position of the blue arrow and the blue and red lines. It's an attempt of units to break through but who this is, that's something I cannot clearly read what area this is from the map because the place names are not legible.
Q. I will show you another map in just a moment. We have evidence in this case, as you -- as you probably can guess, that this was the direction that the column took out of Srebrenica.
What I'd like to do is show you 65 ter 1463 so that we can focus on the left side of this screen where that arrow is a -- in a little more detail, which I think would be helpful to orient us all to this -- to the context of your testimony.
MR. VANDERPUYE: So if I could show the witness, please, 65 ter 1463, we'll find that same area. 15345 If we could just focus now on the bottom right-hand corner where the arrow is once again. A little bit bigger. All right.
Q. Let us know if we need to blow that up a little bit more. But, Mr. Malinic, can you now orient yourself to the area that's depicted here?
A. This is sufficient. Excellent.
Q. At the top of the screen, you can see an area that's marked Konjevic Polje. There's an intersection there.
Q. And can you tell us what roads intersect there, to your knowledge.
A. To the right, or to the east, the road leading from Konjevic Polje leads in the direction of Bratunac. And the road which is leading to the south from the intersection is the road which leads from Konjevic Polje in the direction of Nova Kasaba and Milici. And the road leading to the north from Konjevic Polje leads in the direction of Zvornik.
Q. I may have you mark this -- in fact, I'd like you to mark this map. But can you indicate on here, if you can see first, where the football pitch is, and where the school is. Are you able to see those locations on this map? Or approximately, those locations.
A. I think so, yes.
Q. Then I'd like you to mark them, please. With the help of the usher, we'll arrange for that to be done.
A. I would say that the football field is this. 15346
Q. If you could mark that with number 1 for the football field next to the circle you've drawn.
Q. And if you could mark the school with the number 2.
A. Perhaps a bit more to the south. Can we erase this or ... I went a bit to the north from the school. Because I cannot really figure how this pen works and whether I can erase it. Erase this one, too, please, because we'll then see ... fine.
Q. All right. Let's try again.
A. This is the football field. And number 2 is the school.
Q. Can you indicate with the number 3 where you dispatched these five soldiers that came back with the three prisoners early in the morning on the 13th, as you've previously described.
A. Before the stream, the direction of the breakthrough, and then, later on, the biggest number of prisoners who were arrested, it was here, on this axis and in this direction. From the woods, the stream is to the right. This is the area where the first prisoners were captured and where, during the day, the biggest number of soldiers of the 38th Division surrendered themselves.
Q. We have in the record "the 38th Division." Do you mean the 28th Division? That's number one.
A. Yes, the 28th, I apologise.
Q. The second is, could you indicate or mark the line that you've drawn here showing the axis of where those soldiers were sent with number 15347 3, so that we have it in the record.
A. The red line which I last drew shows the direction in which the Muslim forces from the 28th Division were moving. There was a path that was several metres wide because they probably went in a column, several of them moving abreast, and this is the direction that they were moving in, towards Radanj and further on in the direction of Cerska. And the line of blockade, because you asked me where the group was sent, and to show where the first three, or, rather, the first five were went, was that you in mind?
Q. Yes. I just want you to mark the map with a number 3 where they were sent.
A. They were sent to this line, which I just marked. They left the barracks. Whether they went along the road, that's something I cannot tell you. Or perhaps they went along the Jadar river which flows below the school. From this point in time, I cannot say any more which road they took to reach the place, where the units of the 28th Division were crossing the road.
Q. Are you saying you're not able to mark it, or -- all I want you to do is put number 3 on the map where it was that you told them to go. That's all.
A. No, it was a misunderstanding, I'm sorry. I thought you wanted me to mark the path along which they moved. This is why I said I'm not sure whether they took the Jadar river valley or whether they took the road.
Q. Thank you for that. That's no problem. 15348
MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I would like to tender this marked exhibit.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] The map as annotated by the witness is admitted, Registrar.
THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the map marked by the witness under 65 ter document 1463 shall be assigned Exhibit P2275. Thank you.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Mr. Vanderpuye.
Q. Yesterday, you were asked a question by Presiding Judge earlier in your testimony about the direction or what road it was that these -- that the column took. You said that they crossed a road. And the Presiding Judge asked you what road they had crossed. Can you tell us on this map which road you were referring to?
A. It was the road from Konjevic Polje to Nova Kasaba, which is marked with a red line. Should I mark it in any way or ...
Q. Yes. That would be helpful, actually.
A. Now it's blown up.
Q. It will be helpful if you mark the area on the road that they crossed. That would be, I think, more useful. So you don't have to mark the whole road but just mark the spot or the area on the road that they crossed.
Q. If you could place a number 1 next to that, that would be helpful as well. 15349
Q. Thank you very much.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I'd like to tender this marked exhibit as well.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] This document is admitted. Mr. Registrar.
THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 65 ter 1463 marked by the witness in court for the second time shall be assigned Exhibit P2276. Thank you.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Mr. Vanderpuye.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I'd like to show the witness P857 -- I'm sorry, P858.
Q. Do you recognise what we have on the screen in front of you now, Mr. Malinic?
A. Yes. This is a shot of the stadium or, rather, the football in Nova Kasaba.
Q. And in the middle of the field, can you tell us what that is?
A. In the middle of the field are the prisoners from the 28th Division.
Q. And what -- and that's a square shape, is it, that we can see in the picture? Or a rectangle?
A. Yes, yes, it looks more like a rectangle than a square.
Q. And then we can see a long rectangle, almost a line, to the left of that square, or those prisoners, in the photograph. Can you tell us what that is? 15350
A. As far as I can remember, these were the people from Milici and the surrounding area who had come to see the soldiers who were now POWs.
Q. And is it your recollection that these people that came to see the soldiers were lined up? Because they appear to be lined up in this photograph.
A. No, no one lined them up. They probably sat down like that themselves so that they could see and possibly recognise some of the persons who were among the prisoners. That is my assumption. I know that there were quite a few of them. I'm not sure what the number was, but there were many who had come to see who were the imprisoned soldiers. Because many of them knew people from the area. Perhaps they worked in the same places before the war, because the majority of them worked at the mine in Milici.
Q. Do you exclude the possibility that the people that are lined up in a long rectangle on the left that you believe are civilians or bystanders from Milici? Is it possible that those are also prisoners? Do you exclude that possibility?
A. I believe I would exclude that possibility. The prisoners were brought to the pitch from the eastern side, looking at the map. I don't see any logic in why they would be in -- lined up in this western part. This is an possibility that these were people who were still supposed to be registered and identified, since the location where they were registered was -- I'm sorry, I touched the screen again. The place where they were registered was among the trees. We can't see it here. That's why I say that there is a possibility that this line of people may 15351 also be prisoners.
Q. All right. Let me show you P857. And here we have a slightly larger perspective of this area. And what I want to focus you on, if I can, and perhaps have you mark it, is the following: Were the prisoners, first of all, secured by your unit at the football field?
A. Yes. My unit was in the area between the hill, just behind the school, and down to the stream I marked on the first map, where the main point of breakthrough of the division forces was. That was the area secured by my soldiers.
Q. And in securing the football field, approximately where were your men positioned, inside the pitch and along its perimeter? Can you give us an indication of where they would have been, or, were, rather.
A. Since I had very few soldiers at my disposal, I used a minimum number of them, which could still provide efficient security for the unit. That security detail was on the side. Perhaps we can zoom in on the left upper corner. Perhaps we could see where a white vehicle was.
Q. Are you able to see the vehicle that you were talking about on this -- in this frame?
Q. All right.
A. I see the vehicle. But I can't tell whether it's a BVP, that is to say, a combat vehicle of the military police with a mounted machine-gun. In any case, it was supposed to cover this area of the field. It could engage any part of the field without putting any of my 15352 soldiers in danger.
On the other hand, if we look at the road next to the woods, there were also a few soldiers there who provided security. That is how I used a minimum of forces to cover the entire field area.
Q. Let's mark this photo then.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Maybe we can zoom out a little bit so that we can mark both areas.
Q. First, can you find the area where you had the BVP vehicle and mark that with a number 1.
A. I am not sure that this is the combat vehicle, but, in any case, it was located in this corner.
And the few soldiers I mentioned were in this area, just in front of the prisoners.
Do you want me to mark that location with 2?
Q. That's correct. And those indicate these three dots. How many soldiers did you have there, by the way?
A. It's deleted now?
Q. All right. We'll try it again, I think. Okay. Thank you. How many soldiers did you have in the area that you've marked number 2, if you could just tell us for the record?
A. At location number 2, I can't tell you precisely how many, but three to five, at the most.
And next to the APC, there was a member of the crew who manned the machine-gun, and probably the driver.
Q. Were there -- oh, there's one other thing I'd like you to do. 15353 Could you mark the direction of Konjevic Polje with an arrow; the direction of Milici with the other arrow. Of the road.
Q. And could you put the letter M for Milici; and K/P for Konjevic Polje, please.
Q. Okay. Other than the men that you had in position number 2 and position number 1, did you have any other men in the area securing the football stadium, or the prisoners, from the other sides; that is, the side where the stream is, or the river, to the north, or to the south.
A. I had those soldiers who were part of the blockade line, who were facing the members of the division arriving from the hills. They were deployed along the line that was there to prevent the breakthrough of the 28th Division forces.
Q. All right. Well, what I'm referring to specifically is the stadium itself, or the pitch. You've indicated position 1 and 2, and I want to know if there's any -- if there were any other soldiers in that immediate vicinity securing the field itself and the prisoners inside it.
A. They were not part of the security, but in this corner, facing Konjevic Polje, which is closer to the arrow marked with K/P, this is where the medical station was set up to administer first aid, if needed. It was manned by medical personnel, and, as such, they were not part of the security detail that was there to guard the prisoners. As for the part where I placed the number 2, marking the group of soldiers, there was a table with one officer and one soldier who were 15354 registering the prisoners. Every prisoner had to come up to the table with his or her ID, and then they were included in the list of those captured by the officer.
Now, whether there were any other soldiers next to the table keeping order, that is something I can't say with any precision. I can't say whether there was one or two or no one, primarily because we were able to control the prisoners from the outside.
Q. If you could just mark the exhibit with the number 3 where you've indicated the medical personnel were.
Q. Thank you.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I'd like to tender this marked exhibit.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Just a moment, please, Mr. Vanderpuye.
Just before that, I would like to ask a clarification, a question.
Witness, on page 26 of the transcript, line 9, you said that prisoners had IDs on them and they were showing them to an officer and a soldier. Were you able to see that ID, or at least a few of these IDs?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I was. I wasn't there throughout the period at the stadium, but when I was, I could see the following: Anyone who had any identity document or something that could identify them, handed those over so that their particulars could be entered in the list that was drawn up by the officer. Those who did not 15355 have any documents on them simply stated their first and last name and basic information, and a remark was made that they did not have any ID and were thus not identified by documents.
In other words, not all those who were captured had such documents which could confirm their identity.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Now, based on those ID documents, was it possible to see if they were civilians or soldiers?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was impossible to see whether someone was a civilian or a soldier based on an ID alone.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Mr. Registrar, the Prosecutor requested to tender document -- the document as marked by the witness. So it will be tendered.
[Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Actually, very well, to be very clear, Mr. Registrar, the document will be admitted.
THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter document -- apologies, Your Honours. Exhibit P857, marked in court by the witness, shall be assigned Exhibit P2277. Thank you.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you. I think we still have it up on the screen.
Q. And just before we go to the break, I wanted to ask you, Mr. Malinic, to the bottom of the right of the screen, or the right corner of the screen, I should say, we can see some vehicles down there which appear to be buses. If we zoom out a little bit, we can see some 15356 more on the road.
Does that comport with your recollection of the events on 13 July at around that time, around 2.00, 1400 hours?
A. I suppose those were the buses transporting civilians from Srebrenica to Kladanj. I don't know if it happened at 2.00 exactly because they were transporting them throughout the day. I don't know what time of day it was exactly. We didn't pay much attention to it, as we did not believe it was an important piece of information to have, to know exactly at what time a bus passed by.
In any case, it is clear that there were civilians on board those buses who were being transported from Srebrenica to Kladanj. They were escorted by the officers and soldiers of UNPROFOR.
Q. All right.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Now is a good time to break, Mr. President. I think it's the break time.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye. Indeed, we shall take a break until 11.00. The session is adjourned.
--- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
--- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] The Court is back in session. Mr. Vanderpuye, you have the floor.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
Q. Mr. Malinic, just before we broke, you mentioned that there were civilians on board the buses that we could see in the photograph. I 15357 think that is P857. And that these buses were being escorted by officers and soldiers of UNPROFOR.
You are aware, of course, that that wasn't continuous, those escorts weren't continuous, throughout the 13th of July; right?
A. No, I wasn't aware of the fact that those escorts did not continue throughout the 13th of July.
On the buses, passing by the stadium, I believe there were also UNPROFOR officers and soldiers in each and every bus.
Q. All right. You remember being approached by a DutchBat officer by the name of Egbers that day who reported to you that he and his colleagues had been stopped along the road and divested of their equipment, don't you?
A. Lieutenant Egbers arrived with three or four vehicles in the battalion barracks, asking to see an officer to discusses some problems he had encountered during that day.
Q. Mm-hm. And those problems related to equipment being taken from UNPROFOR officers and their inability to escort the buses; right?
A. The equipment that was taken from them -- well, I can't recall exactly what equipment it was. But he asked that we draw up a list of all that equipment. We did that, and the copy of the list was given to Lieutenant Egbers. The other copy remained in the MP battalion. I promised to inform my superiors with -- or about the incident and that we will do our utmost to have the equipment returned to them. That is why Lieutenant Egbers was a given a copy of the list of equipment. I can't recall what equipment specifically it was. I do 15358 remember, though, that they arrived in three or four Mercedes vehicles in the barracks, that they had their weapons with them, and that they bore the insignia, the white insignia of the UN. He said that the equipment that was taken away --
THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whether the equipment that was taken was taken from his group or the group that was at the observation point.
In any case, if that document is still in existence, we could see what equipment it was and if it in any way affected their ability to escort the convoys with civilians.
Q. How long did they stay at the barracks, Mr. Malinic?
A. Lieutenant Egbers stayed in the barracks with his soldiers two or three days. During their stay, in addition to the list of equipment he provided, he asked that I secure escort for him to Potocari, where the UNPROFOR command was, or the command of his unit. During their stay in the barracks, the weapons were kept by the UNPROFOR soldiers. They also had communication means, probably by satellite. I know that because during that period of time, Lieutenant Egbers was able to communicate with his base in Split, according to the information he provided to me. When he received an approval from his command, although I don't know if it was the command in Split or the one in Potocari, that he may leave, he did.
Q. How did he leave, and his men, Mr. Malinic? 15359
A. He and the group he headed went on board a military police APC. They were taken as far as Potocari.
Q. And what happened to the Mercedes vehicles that they arrived in, Mr. Malinic?
A. The Mercedes vehicles remained in the barracks. Lieutenant Egbers received a certificate stating that the vehicles were to stay in the barracks. The reason for that was their security. It was his request that I should escort him with my soldiers to Potocari. However, due to the fact that there was still combat, I was unable to secure an escort for him who could guarantee safety to him and his people, so as to prevent any harm coming to them en route to Potocari. In the part where we were and further afield to Konjevic Polje, which is to my left, there was combat. Under such circumstances, I could not guarantee their safety. I could not guarantee that fire would not be opened --
Q. I asked you what happened to the Mercedes. And I think you've answered that. I'm running out of time so I'm going to try to be as specific as I can with my questions, and it would be helpful if you could be specific with your answers, too.
Were you aware that Egbers was stopped at gun point before he came to your barracks?
Q. Did you contact your superior, in relation to the complaints that Egbers gave you?
A. Yes. 15360
Q. Who did you contact?
A. I informed my superior at the command of the Protection Regiment, and that was Lieutenant-Colonel Jovo Jazic. He probably relayed this information to the Main Staff command and informed them that at the barracks in Nova Kasaba there was a group of UNPROFOR members.
Q. Did Colonel Beara come in response to this?
A. As for issues relating the presence of Colonel Beara, there are various views and opinions. According to what I remember, I'm not 100 per cent sure that Colonel Beara was present at the barracks, but it is highly probable that he was; in particular, considering the situation that the unit was in.
Q. Let me show you P526.
MR. VANDERPUYE: 526B.
[Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] This document should not be broadcast, please.
Q. This is an intercept, sir, that's from the 13th of July, 1995. You can see the time indicated here as 1445 hours and it's between two individual who are not named. 1, and 2, they are designated respectively.
I'd like to show you, or, first, we can see just generally it talks about the area of Konjevic Polje. We can see that at about the fifth entry or sixth entry in the intercept itself. And it talks about buses: 15361 "The column is on both sides and those buses have stopped in Zvornik. They can't pass."
And then we can see the conversation continues, and 1 described that:
"It is a madhouse. Some of them want to surrender, some won't." And then:
"There is shooting among them and our guys are capturing them." Does this fairly reflect your recollection of what was going on in the area that you indicated on the map, in Konjevic Polje and Nova Kasaba and so on, at about that time, on that date?
A. Yes, yes. It was crowded. There was a lot of combat, a lot of shooting, many explosions; also members of the 28th Division who surrendered themselves.
Q. Let's go to page 2 in the English, and the bottom of this page in the B/C/S.
And we can see here an entry that refers to you. It says: "This Malinic down there, he called Major Savcic. He says he does not know how long this commotion here is going to last and it's not possible to get through. And here ... up there, I have," and it appears to be a radio set, "when they said two buses, then they also ordered four trucks."
With respect to the reference to you having called Major Savcic, is that accurate? Does it reflect your recollection?
A. I don't know who Major Savic is. I do not know him or I cannot recollect now who Major Savic would be. In the unit and at the commend 15362 of the 65th Regiment, there was no Major Savic.
Q. Did you call Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic? Savcic, not Savic.
A. Yesterday during the examination, I said that I did not know where Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic was, and I did not have his number. From this point in time, I cannot recollect whether I called Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic and talked to him at the time indicated here. There is a possibility that we talked on the phone several times during the day, but whether it was at this time, I cannot tell you with any certainty.
Q. Okay. And let me just ask this one other question: As part of the military police battalion, did you have a communications company, a communications unit?
A. According to the establishment, there was a communications detachment which was a part of the military police battalion.
Q. You said "according to the establishment." What I would like to know is: In fact, was there one there, or one that was operating in the area of Nova Kasaba, or communications personnel in the area of Nova Kasaba, on 13th of July, 1995?
A. Yes. When I said that according to the establishment, we had a communications squad. This squad was operational and it was part of the military police battalion. In the Kasaba sector, we had a code, and we also had a radio relay piece of equipment which was used for communication with the command of the 65th Protection Motorised Regiment.
THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The unit is a squad rather than a detachment. 15363
Q. And in order to reach the command of the regiment or other units, you would have gone through or used the communications squad that was available to the battalion command; yes?
A. The communications squad had a primary task of taking care of the radio relay piece of equipment which was outside of the school complex. It was positioned on a hill above the school, and it had to meet certain technical criteria. The place where it was had to have certain technical characteristics so that communication could be established. In the process of establishing communication with the command of the 65th Protection Regiment, communications soldiers were not necessary. You would simply dial the number on a telephone set and you would reach the person you wanted to talk to at the regiment command. Also, the squad, that is to say, one or two soldiers, were in charge of the code. They were specially trained soldiers who had to meet certain security criteria to be allowed to work on the code because that was a key that they were handling.
Q. Thank you. Let me show you P125. Oh, wait a minute. Let me show you P411. B. P441B.
THE REGISTRAR: This is a confidential exhibit and should not be broadcast. Thank you.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Sir, this should not be broadcast.
MR. VANDERPUYE: 411B, please.
Q. This is another intercept which I'm sure you've seen before. It's timed at 1405 hours. And it's 13 July 1995 also. 15364 And it refers to the football pitch. And then it says: "Brother, don't take anyone. I'll send you an urgent telegram now. Don't take anyone" --
A. I'm sorry, but I can't see that. I don't have that.
Q. Okay. I think we've got it now and it starts at the bottom of the page.
Do you see it now? It's at the very bottom of the screen and you'll see the frequency of 254.300, and then it says "pravac ji jugoistok."
Can you see it now, Mr. Malinic?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. And this intercept, you can see, is timed at 1405 hours between X and Y; they're unknown.
And X says: "Where is that?"
Y says: "Here at the football pitch."
And X says: "Is it visible?"
Y says: "It is."
X says: "Brother, don't take anyone. I'll send you an urgent telegram now. Don't take anyone."
And it says: 15365 "Put out of sight. Maybe."
And then it says: "I'll end you the telegram now and explain it to you." Y says:
"Go ahead." And X says:
"Secure it well and you'll get it now in the telegram." First of all, do you know what this is about?
A. No. This telegram, or, rather, this conversation, is something that is presented to me for the first time now.
Q. You sure about that?
Q. All right. When you were interviewed back in December of 2005, I believe you were shown this particular telegram. And it's on page 16 of the English. If you want, I will put the B/C/S up for you. But let me just read what it says. It says in the question: "Okay. Now it's very clear that the two people speaking on this intercept are talking about the soccer field, and one person is saying, 'Do not accept any more. I'll send you a telegram and explain.' And shortly after this, we know that the telegram was sent, in fact, I have the original with me. But before we get on to that, do you recall this conversation? Did you take part in it?"
And your answer was: "I really can't tell you anything about it."
Do you remember that? 15366
Q. All right. For the record, it's transcript page 16, line 18 -- rather, line 12 through 17 in the -- 12 through 18, I'm sorry, in the English; and page 14, line 31, through page 15, line 32 in the B/C/S. I can put it up on the screen. But I don't think it's necessary at this point.
Let me show you P125. This is a document, Mr. Malinic, that I'm quite sure that you've seen before. You can see this one is timed at 1400 hours, which is close in time --
A. Yes, this one, yes.
Q. Which is close in time to the intercept I just showed you. And it states -- well, first of all, the title says it is IKM forward command post of the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment at Borike. And it says that it is to the commander of the Main Staff, to the assistant commander for morale, religious, legal affairs of the Main Staff, and to the commander of the military police battalion of the
65th Protection Regiment. That would be you, yes? At least by title.
And it is entitled: "Procedure for treatment of prisoner of war" and recounts that there are over a thousand members of the -- former 28th Division of the so-called BH Army captured in the area of Dusanovo and then it says "(Kasaba)." Is that the area in which your units were situated on 13 July 1995?
A. Yes. 15367
Q. And you can see here at the very bottom of the screen, it says, "Delivered, 1510 hours, 13 July 1995." And type-signed by Commander Lieutenant-Colonel Milomir Savcic.
Were you shown this document before?
A. Yes, I was shown this document.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] General Tolimir.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I would ask Mr. Vanderpuye to say where the signature of Mr. Savcic can you found on this document, because he said that there was a facsimile of the signature. I don't see it and I wish to see it. So can that be noted, please?
MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, this appears to be a translation issue. What I said was it is typed-signed. It is a typewritten name of "pukovnik," Lieutenant-Colonel Milomir Savcic. It says Komandant, on top of it, and I think you can probably see it on the screen in front of you. That's what I referred to when I said "type-signed."
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] It is quite clear that the document was typed.
MR. VANDERPUYE: It is, however, signed on the left-hand side of the document, and I believe the Trial Chamber has received the evidence concerning the signature of the individual who -- well, of that individual and the circumstances relating to that.
Q. Mr. Malinic, can you tell us about this document?
A. Can we just zoom in a little bit more so that I can read it once again, if that's all right. 15368 I have read it. I can say the following about this document: I can see that it was addressed to the commander of the Main Staff of the Republika Srpska army for his information, then to the assistant commander for morale, religious, and legal affairs of the Main Staff of VRS for his information, and the commander of the military police battalion, "order."
So this document is an order for me. It says at the beginning that there are more than 1.000 prisoners, members of the 28th Division. Assistant commander for security and intelligence affairs of the Main Staff of the VRS proposes the following measures. I think that if you look at one and the other structure, it cannot be an order, and the assistant commander for security and intelligence affairs of the Main Staff proposes the following measures. If it's an order, it just states what needs to be done. In my opinion, the assistant commander for security and intelligence affairs of the Main Staff of the VRS can propose measures to the Main Staff commander, rather than to Lieutenant-Colonel Milomir Savcic. Primarily because the assistant commander can give advice and can say what he would do, but in a document which is entitled as an order, he cannot say that the assistant commander for security and intelligence proposes the following measures.
I cannot see from this whether this is an order for me to do that or if it's a proposal. If I look at it as a superior officer, if we then have a look at the categories: "Prohibit access to all unauthorised individuals filming and photographing of prisoners." 15369 I could do that.
Number 2: "Prohibit traffic for all United Nations vehicles en route Zvornik, Vlasenica until further notice. Re-route them via Zvornik, Sekovici, Vlasenica and back."
I could not do that. Because if Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic sent this telegram, he knew where I was and that I could not close down this road because Zvornik is mentioned here. So with a part of my unit, I was supposed to be stationed in Zvornik in order to be able to carry out this order.
Number 3: "Commander of the military police battalion shall take measures to remove war prisoners from the main Milici-Zvornik road. Place them somewhere indoors or in an area protected from observation from the ground or the air."
If this is an order that I received, then, as a subordinate officer, I would have to act in accordance with the order. All prisoners who were at the stadium at 1400 hours remained there until their departure; that is to say, until the arrival of vehicles and their transport.
If I had received this order and had not carried it out, then a criminal report should have been filed against me because I had not carried out the orders of my superior.
And, finally, the commander --
THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please slow down when reading. 15370
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Once the commander --
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, could you talk a little bit slowly, please, so that the interpreters could interpret precisely what you are saying and that this can be recorded in the transcript.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. Do I need to repeat?
Q. I don't think so. I think we've gotten what you've said so far. But you just need to slow down so that the interpreters can have a chance to interpret what you say to those of us who don't speak your language. Let me ask you this question, Mr. Malinic: You're saying that if you had received this order, then you would -- you did not discharge it. Is that the gist of it?
A. No. I say that if I had received it, I would have had to carry it out, or else my superior would have filed a criminal report against me, asking why I had not carried out the order.
As I explained that the prisoners had remained at the football field until their arrival of buses and their transport, I either did not act in accordance with this order or never received this telegram. I am an officer who esteems and honours my superiors. At least I was like that. I carried out orders. It is impossible that I received this telegram and did not carry out the order.
Q. Are you saying that the order is not legitimate?
A. I am not saying that the order is not legitimate. I read it from the beginning, and it is my conclusion that either things were not done properly or the document was not drafted properly, but it was not in 15371 keeping with standard practice of publishing or issuing orders. If you look at the format of the telegram itself, any educated officer who has ever issued a single order would tell you that an order may not look like this and not in this form. That's what I'm trying to say.
I won't discuss whether the signature of the commander is there or not. You can all see that it is not there. I will not try to dispute that fact.
There's another thing. The fourth point which I did not complete where it says that the battalion commander, upon receiving this order, will get in touch with General Miletic and acquire additional explanations and seek verification of whether what was proposed by the commander of the Main Staff was correct.
In other words, this order should have been approved by the commander of the Main Staff. It turns out that this document did not have the force of an order until it was approved. In other words, these were just proposed measures. In an order for implementation needs to be approved by the commander of the VRS Main Staff.
Q. Did you contact General Miletic?
A. In all likelihood, during the 13th, I did speak to General Miletic. It seems he was the only general in the Main Staff command post. And the other officers from the Main Staff Command, starting with the commander, as well as the Chief of Staff, were outside the area of the command post. They were somewhere in the field. We probably spoke. If you're trying to ask me whether we 15372 discussed this or something else, such as General Miletic inquiring about the situation in Nova Kasaba, then I'd say that there's a high probability that we did talk. I don't know, though, why I, as the MP battalion commander, would need to get in touch with General Miletic by communication means when, at the command post of the 65th Protection Regiment, was -- that command post was 2- to 300 metres from the command post of the Main Staff, and Jovo Jazic was there, who was the Chief of Staff of the 65th Protection Regiment.
Q. All right, Mr. Malinic. I don't want to belabour the point, and I guess I should put this up.
It is 65 ter 2781, which is your statement. And we'll have to go to page 19 in the English and page 18, I believe, in the B/C/S. While that's coming up, do you recall being asked about whether you thought this particular document, that is, P125, was legitimate or authentic?
Do you remember being asked that?
A. You mean in 2005, when I provided the statement in the office? Then, yes, I think so.
Q. At line 21 through 28 in the English, and 18 through 26, I believe, in the B/C/S, you were asked, first, does this, the document, in question:
"Does it look legitimate, authentic to you?" That was the question.
And your answer is: "If it was sent by the forward command post, I don't know why it 15373 would be in any other archive," because the investigator told you it was recovered from the Drina Corps archive. "If it is an original, I say it again, it has to be signed. It has to be a stamp on the copy that arrives through code. There is no stamp and signature on that copy. On the original, it has to be signed and stamped. Every order has to contain information as to who drafted it, who typed it. It we do this by initials. On this document, I don't see it, so I can't tell you what the status of this document is. One can conclude for what I have [sic] just said, no, it's not."
Meaning, no, it's not legitimate or authentic. Is that what you're saying here today, or are you saying something different?
A. Today, I analysed the document in all its parts. I believe we came to the conclusion that it is not an order but, actually, a proposal that needed to be approved by the commander of the Main Staff. I read it carefully today. I don't know how much attention I paid to those details when I provided my statement to the ICTY office in Belgrade. At that time, I probably focussed more on the elements necessary for a document to be an order. I tried to approach it from this technical standpoint, and, now, I focussed on that part of the order which includes the addressee and whether it was a full-fledged order or a proposal. There's another thing I stressed, which is it should be in the archives of the regiment and not in the archives of the Drina Corps, because it is not stated anywhere that this message or this document was to be sent to the command of the Drina Corps. So one needs to ask one's self how this would ended up in a place where it was not to be sent in 15374 the first place. I, as an officer, do not understand that. Maybe somebody picked it up from a unit, and we can see that it was addressed to the commander of the Main Staff, assistant commander for morale and religious affairs, and to the MP battalion commander of the 65th Protection Motorised Regiment. If there were four addressees on the list and yet it surfaced at a fifth location, then we have a problem: Is this a valid document or not?
That is why I raised that issue in 2005, in all likelihood.
Q. In fact, in 2005, you discussed a number of the provisions in the document, of the items that are listed 1 through 4, didn't you?
A. Sorry, could you repeat your question?
Q. In the item -- in the exhibit, rather, there are a number of items that are listed. You went through a couple of them just a few moments ago; items 1 through 4. You discussed those during the course of your interview as well, in 2005; correct?
A. That is possible. It is possible that I discussed the points in 2005. I didn't look at the whole text. You directed me to the part where I discussed the technical characteristics. I didn't look into what I said then, if I talked about the various items of the order at that time.
Q. All right. You did read your statement before you started testifying here; yes?
A. Yes, I did. I read it in your office on Tuesday.
Q. Did you ever discuss this document with Milomir Savcic? That is, either before your interview or after your interview. 15375
A. In the past ten years, I seldom met Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic. I don't know if we discussed this. Actually, I cannot see -- say with 100 per cent certainty whether we discussed this document or not. I can't be certain either way.
Q. All right. Now, you mentioned in the last ten years. Let me ask you maybe this way: In the last ten years, had you discussed this document with Mr. Savcic, what would be the reason for that? Why would you have discussed this document with Mr. Savcic?
A. It's a hypothetical question. Why would I discuss it? And my answer is hypothetical. I don't know if I did or did not. If I did, hypothetically if I did, it was probably because something surrounding this document was discussed during his interview with the Prosecution. Now whether I was able to assist in any way in this, that is something I don't know. I don't see any reason or the sense of this order. I don't know why it is so important. Maybe my perception is too narrow, but I don't see anything in this order that would be wrong. In this proposal/order, I don't see anything that has to do with the time and area of combat operations that be would wrong. All armed forces in the world work the same way.
There was one illogical thing which struck me at the time, and that was that the road in the area of combat operations not be cut off or have it sealed. It was illogical to have people recording videotaping POWs --
Q. I just asked you whether or not you discussed it with Mr. Savcic. If your answer is you don't remember, you might have, could have, or 15376 would have, that's all I want to know.
Are you saying that you don't recall discussing this document with Mr. Savcic in the last, say, ten years?
A. I said already that I don't remember discussing this document with Colonel Savcic in the past ten years.
Q. Let me ask you this: You indicated on -- just a moment. When I showed you P857 - I believe that was the aerial image of Nova Kasaba football field with prisoners on it - you indicated that a column of individuals that we can see on that photograph might have been lined up to provide identification. Did you make lists of these prisoners that were in the custody of your unit on the football field at that time, on the 13th of July, 1995?
A. Yes. A list was drawn up. Perhaps not of all the prisoners, but at least 90 per cent or 95 per cent of them. There was a list of those who were captured and placed in the field.
Q. And why wasn't that list completed?
A. I'm not certain whether the percentage was 90, or 100, or 98. If there is a possibility that the list is incomplete, one reason for it could be that the buses used to transport those captured soldiers arrived before the prisoner list was completed. I mentioned that as a possibility, not as my knowledge or 100 per cent truth. Maybe all of the prisoners were listed, although I'm not sure.
That would be my answer.
Q. Did you -- yes, Mr. President.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor, as it is midday 15377 now, past midday, you have used up almost three hours and 45 minutes, if I'm not mistaken. Maybe Mr. -- the Registrar might have more precise information. I do not want to put you under pressure, but I believe that it is time for you to complete your examination-in-chief because you required three hours. So please finish earlier.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I'm doing my best, and I'm trying to ask very specific, directed questions, and I'm hoping to persuade the witness to give me very specific and directed answers, and I think that may help to speed things up.
I have, essentially, two areas that I'd like to cover with this witness, and I'm hoping that they will be brief.
Q. Sir, you mentioned that you had been involved in making list of these prisoners. You said 90 per cent, and then you said that it could be 100 per cent and you're not sure. Do you have any recollection of the process of listing the prisoners being interrupted at any point?
A. The process, or the order, I didn't personally participate in the listing of prisoners, but I did order that all prisoners should be listed. The rules of service of the military police regulates that all those brought into custody need to be identified by best means available. By the same token, my order was in keeping with the rules of the military police, which is that all prisoners should be listed. Now, whether the process of listing those prisoners was completed -- well, it began a few hours following the capture of the first group, and it went on until the soldiers were put on the buses; the prisoners, that is. I cannot say with any certainty whether they were 15378 all listed because their bringing in was not completed by 6.00 p.m. In between 6.00 p.m. and the time the prisoners boarded the buses, there may still have been some of them coming in. In other words, the process was not completed at a certain point in time. The process of capturing soldiers lasted up to the moment when they -- they began boarding the buses. I don't know whether they were all listed. I don't even know whether the process was interrupted at any point.
Q. Thank you, Mr. Malinic.
A. I cannot say with any certainty.
Q. That's all I want to know. If you know it's interrupted, can you tell us, and if you don't know, you can tell us that, too. I think it will save some time if you can respond directly to my question.
Did you tell Colonel Keserovic -- you want to say something?
A. Yes. We could say that the process was interrupted when the commander of the Main Staff arrived in the area of the football field and when the commander of the Main Staff, General Ratko Mladic, addressed the prisoners. Prior to his arrival, I was not at the stadium, at the field. When General Mladic arrived, I was informed by way of radio that he had arrived and I went there. I arrived a few minutes later. Now whether the process was interrupted, yes, during the time he was addressing the prisoners who were in the field at Nova Kasaba.
Q. Did you tell General, or, rather, Colonel Keserovic - then - on or around the 16th or 17th of July that the process was interrupted when General Mladic said that there was no need to make lists because the 15379 prisoners would be going home?
A. I don't remember having said that to General Keserovic.
Q. Are you saying you don't remember specifically saying that to General Keserovic, or you don't remember what you said to General Keserovic?
A. I don't remember what I said to General Keserovic, because it was 16 years ago, and I don't remember how the conversation went. I only know that General Keserovic came with the task of unifying the activities of those units in the area of Kasaba, Konjevic Polje, Bratunac in order to have a search of terrain conducted. He came there with an intention to unify the -- unify or co-ordinate the activities of those units who were in that part of the theatre.
Q. Were your units among those involved in the action, which General Keserovic came to, as you say, unify? The activities that you referred to just a moment ago.
A. The combat operation of terrain search is one of the most complex ones. My unit was along the same blockade line that had been set up on the 13th of July, 1995. Its task was to remain there until the search of terrain was completed. The principal forces used to search the terrain had to include the Bratunac Brigade and perhaps some other unit, but I don't know.
The terrain search, in my view and my conclusion which is what I informed the superior command, was that it was not completed. It was simply stated that the terrain search was completed after a certain period of time, but I don't know whether it was one, two, or three days 15380 later.
As for General Keserovic's stay in the area of my battalion, as far as I recall, was a very short one. I think he spent most of his time focussing on the Bratunac Brigade, which was supposed to carry out the search; while the other units involved were deployed along the blockade line.
Q. And yours was one of those units; is that right?
A. My unit was part of the blockade line, at the same location at which it had been since the 13th of July, 1995. No other special task was received by us, in terms of the terrain search. We remained where we were. In military parlance, there were those units who were part of the blockade and those units searching the terrain. As far as I know, that unit was supposed to have been the Bratunac Brigade. I don't know whether any other units participated in it.
General Keserovic, who, at the time was a lieutenant-colonel, was supposed to co-ordinate the work of all those units that were in the field at that time; that is to say, starting with the blockade line and up to the units executing the search.
Q. Mr. Malinic, do you know whether prisoners were captured as a result of those -- or that search of the terrain?
A. Whether anyone was captured during the search of the terrain, because, as far as I know, this was taking place from the 16th or the 17th until about the 20th, because in such an extensive area it cannot be completed in just one day.
I don't know whether anyone was taken prisoner during the search 15381 of the terrain. I noted that it is my opinion that the search of the terrain was not even carried out as it should be done. The units which were doing the search of the terrain were supposed to come and link up with units which were engaged on the blockade. When that is done, then such a search of the terrain is completed.
However, as this link-up of the units which were in charge of searching the terrain did not link up with units who were in charge of the blockade, and I primarily mean my own unit when I say that, my personal opinion is that the search of the terrain was never completely done. Whether anyone was taken prisoner during the process or not, this is something I couldn't tell you.
Q. Well, that's my question.
A. I tell you, I do not know.
Q. Let me just ask you a question and try to answer the question. Don't save it for last. Try to answer it first.
Are you aware of the fact that this Trial Chamber has evidence before it that as many as 200 prisoners were captured, and some children were captured, during the sweep of this terrain?
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Tolimir.
THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]
THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The witness already answered that he does not know this. I would ask Mr. Vanderpuye not to ask questions that are leading the witness 15382 which include something that he knows but just ask them in such a way that the witness should only state what he knows or does not know. Thank you.
Q. Have you heard that as many as 200 prisoners were captured, including some children during the course of the sweep of the terrain? Have you heard that before coming here to testify today?
A. No. This is the first time I hear that during the search of the terrain anyone was taken prisoner.
I noted that no one from the Bratunac Brigade or any other unit which participated in the search of the terrain did not come out to the blockade line where my unit was positioned.
Q. Thank you.
MR. VANDERPUYE: For the Court's reference, I'm referring to the testimony of PW-052, a 92 bis witness. And specifically pages 8702 through 8703 of the Popovic trial transcript.
Q. Let me ask you very briefly, Mr. Malinic: During the period of time that your units were securing the prisoners at Nova Kasaba stadium, were you aware of, or did you hear about, any abuses of the prisoners? And, in particular, did you hear that one of the prisoners was shot and killed there at the stadium?
A. As for the abuse of prisoners, there was none of that, as far as I know. They were brought to the football field where they had to sit. They were given water, and food was ordered for them through the president of the Milici municipality. I think it was primary bread 15383 because they supplied us with that as well.
Q. All right.
A. And as for killings, the killing of one prisoner, this is something I heard of. And it did happen at the stadium when the prisoner attacked a soldier who was a member of the military police battalion. That was the only instance when someone lost his life, but it wasn't at anyone's whim. It was a question of self-defence.
Q. Very well, Mr. Malinic.
MR. VANDERPUYE: I would just, for the record, refer the Trial Chamber to the evidence of PW-16, and, in particular, I think that is admitted in this case as P1762, transcript reference 3024 through 3025.
Q. Let me just ask you this, Mr. Malinic, so we can conclude. Are you aware of graves, mass graves, in the area of Nova Kasaba between where your unit was stationed and the intersection that were exhumed, containing the bodies of several prisoners?
A. No, I'm not aware of that.
Q. Very well, Mr. Malinic. I have no further questions for you on direct.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, very much, Mr. President. I appreciate your indulgence.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Vanderpuye. Thank you for finishing your examination-in-chief. We still have ten minutes before the break, so I would like to ask Mr. Tolimir if he wishes to start his cross-examination at this 15384 point.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can start, or perhaps it would be best to take the break now and then finish everything as part of one session. Thank you.
[Trial Chamber confers]
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Vanderpuye, I believe that this is a good idea. Mr. Tolimir's proposal is convenient, isn't it? Right. So we will now take a 30-minute break. We shall reconvene at 12.50.
The hearing is adjourned.
--- Recess taken at 12.20 p.m.
--- On resuming at 12.52 p.m.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] We're back in session. Witness, you will now be cross-examined by the accused, General Tolimir. He will be the one asking you questions. I'm absolutely certain that you will answer calmly and courteously, as you did when the Prosecutor put his questions to you. So he has the right to put questions to you, according to the Rules of Procedure and Evidence.
General Tolimir, you have the floor. But before that, I believe you said that you needed three hours, if I'm not mistaken. So please try to do what you can; try to do your best. I don't want to put any undue pressure on you. I did not put too much pressure on the Prosecutor either. 15385 So thank you very much.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President. I know that we will not finish today, I don't expect that we will. I did want to alert the Court that our next witness will not be ready in any event to proceed until Wednesday, so I just wanted to let you know that so it is not a surprise come Tuesday, depending on when General Tolimir completes his cross-examination and if there's any re-direct examination, that there may be a small gap between that and the next witness.
[Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Vanderpuye, I understood what you said, and I don't know how much General Tolimir will need for his examination or cross-examination, but I imagine that if he needs the same amount of time you used, we would have to -- we won't finish today so we would have to continue on Tuesday, because Monday is a day off, it's a United Nations holiday. I believe you are right, because you are saying yes, nodding.
So if we do not finish today, Mr. Witness, Mr. Zoran Malinic, you will have to stay with us here in The Hague and until next Tuesday. You are a very important witness. You saw that the Prosecutor went over the time that was given to him. I imagine that you understand that. So, Mr. Prosecutor, I imagine that Witness PW-057 won't be able to come before Wednesday. Is that what you said? If we do not finish on Tuesday with the witness that we have here today. Is that correct? 15386
MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes and no. It is correct that the witness won't be ready until Wednesday. But that's independent of when this -- the current witness finishes. If he finished for example, early on Tuesday, then I expect there will be a gap, unfortunately, until the next witness. That what I was trying to express. Obviously if the current witness is not completed on Tuesday, then we'll just start later with the next witness, on Wednesday.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well. Does the Defence wish to add any comment?
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I would ask us to move on to cross-examination of this witness. Perhaps we might finish today, if he provides short answers, so he wouldn't have to wait until Wednesday here, because he has other things to do. So if you allow me, I would try to do that. Thank you.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well, General. I thank you for your efficiency and I hope that it will -- you will be efficient, as you said. So you have the floor.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Once again, may there be peace to this house. I greet everyone present and I hope that this day of trial and the entire proceedings may finish as God wishes and not as I wish.
Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:
Q. Please, as we speak the language, please have a look at the screen and do not start speaking before the cursor stops. And please also try to answer briefly to my questions. Thank you. 15387 Mr. Malinic, my first question is this: Who did you hand over the war prisoners from the football field to and who transported them and where, if you know?
A. In the afternoon, or, rather, in the evening on the 13th of July, buses came along to the football field. The prisoners, the soldiers, boarded the buses, and, from what I learned later, the buses then went to Bratunac. Whether someone who was the leader of the convoy and who brought the buses, I cannot say with certainty whether that was the person who received the prisoners and took them on.
Q. Thank you. In the afternoon, on the 13th, was there a TV crew present, and did it do some filming of the prisoners and the activities at the football field, as you said during examination-in-chief?
A. I received an order from Lieutenant-Colonel Jazic on the 13th, saying that TV crews which will film the prisoners would come to the sector of Nova Kasaba in the sector of the football field and that it was not necessary to do any checks of these TV crews, because the filming of POWs and the whole situation in the Nova Kasaba area had been approved by the Main Staff. I think that there were three crews and that someone from the press centre of the VRS was leading the group which came to film the soldiers.
During the filming of the POWs, they had complete freedom. They could talk to the prisoners, interview them, shoot all the details at the stadium so that, as the battalion commander, or, rather, the commander of the part of the unit that was present there at the time, I was unable to prevent or block or guide the TV crews in any way so that they would film 15388 anything according to my scenario rather than their own. They had complete freedom, in other words. I'm not sure whether the TV crews were there at the time moment when the Main Staff commander came to the football field in Nova Kasaba. It's highly probable that they were, and that they also filmed General Mladic's address to the prisoners, but I cannot say this with 100 percent certainty.
Q. Thank you. As for your soldiers who watched the news on TV that evening, could you hear from them whether the football field in Nova Kasaba was on the news and whether everyone was informed, both the local and the international public, that the prisoners from Nova Kasaba and the football field would be exchanged?
A. There was no TV signal received in Nova Kasaba. So that to your question whether the soldiers watched the TV, I cannot answer in the affirmative. The entire unit was on the positions. So even if we had been receiving the signal and had the TV programme, they could not have watched it because they were engaged in carrying out combat operations.
Q. Thank you. And can it be supposed that if filming was allowed on the 13th, and if Jazic announced it to you on the 13th, if you allowed it to be done on the 13th, did these journalists who were filming that keep the information for themselves or did they inform the public about it? Thank you.
A. General, I am not aware of what the further activities of the journalists and TV crews were after they had filmed what they did. Therefore, I cannot tell you anything about their further activities and whether it was broadcast, whether it was published in the media, or any 15389 other information about that. I could not learn anything about that, or watch that.
Q. As you were informed that you should allow the media representatives in, and as they were there and as they freely talked to the prisoners, as you told us, tell us, whether the POWs were registered at the time? Were lists of them being made? And could the media representatives and the POWs communicate freely?
A. During the visit of the TV crews to the football field, the POWs were being listed and the TV crews had the right to talk to them and film all the details they, as journalists, were interested in.
Q. Thank you. In accordance with that, did you register all the POWs in accordance with the service rules on registering and listing the POWs once they were captured?
A. During the registration of the POWs, we worked in accordance with the service rules. Whether we registered all the POWs as I noted when answering one of the Prosecutor's questions, I'm not certain whether all POWs were registered, and I cannot claim and say with 100 per cent certitude, that all POWs who were at the football field were listed and registered.
Q. Thank you, Mr. Malinic. On page 43 of today's transcript, in line 3, Mr. Vanderpuye asked you whether you contacted General Miletic. My question is this: Did you discuss the alleged telegram which you were supposed to receive from Savcic with Mr. Miletic, or did you discuss other problems and issues because he was at the operations centre? Thank you. 15390
A. A lot of time has passed since 1995. Many events from my military career and my personal life have been such that I do not remember, first of all, whether I talked to General Miletic and, if so, what we talked about. If we did, whether we discussed the telegram or the situation in the territory of Nova Kasaba, I cannot say anything about this.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] P125, please.
MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
Q. Once it comes up on the screen, I'm showing it just for the record so that we could show what we are talking about. You will see on the screen what the Prosecutor showed you. I'm only interested in the following. Did you receive a telegram which was supposed to have the contents that this typed document but unsigned and unregistered document has? Thank you.
A. From what I know, and from this point in time, I cannot say either yes or no. I don't remember if I received this telegram.
Q. As you see the telegram now and as you were an officer a long time, could the soldier who is in charge of decoding receive a telegram which has not been registered and which is not signed, if one were to investigate a crime, would you ask these questions to the decoder: Why did you receive a telegram which has not been signed and which has not been registered? Would he be allowed to do that?
A. According to the rules on correspondence, the decoder should not receive any document which is not signed and which was sent by code because anyone could write a document and then sign someone else or 15391 include contents which have nothing do with the person who is sending that, whether he would be held criminally responsible or not, this is something I wouldn't know. I don't know enough about soldiers and officers who are in charge of working with codes, so this information could rather be provided by people who were serving in the communications units and who were in charge of encryption.
Q. Thank you. As a policeman, if you had seen such a telegram which is typed up but has not been sent by a teleprinter, what would you say in your report? Was it sent to a unit which perhaps may have perished because it never received this? If someone submitted to you a paper like this without perforated tape that would show that it was sent by a teleprinter, what would you write in your report? Thank you.
A. I would write that a document is of doubtful origin and that there is no confirmation that the document was really sent for coding.
Q. Thank you. So as not to waste any more time, on page 32, the Prosecutor asked you whether you knew that Egbers had come to see you and that when he came to see you, he stood there at gunpoint?
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please show document P1143.
Q. So that we could see how guns were pointed at him when he came to see you.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] P1143, please. Thank you.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Prosecutor.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I do object to General Tolimir's question in the sense that it mischaracterises the question that I put to the witness. I did not tell the witness that 15392 Egbers came to him and he was at gunpoint. I said he was stopped at gunpoint before he came to him. And that's an important issue, I think, and it's an important fact for General Tolimir not to misrepresent to the witness.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, General Tolimir. Would you say that what you've just said reflects the -- what is written on page 32, that you've just mentioned?
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will read out what I wrote down in my notes:
"Did you know that Egbers, before seeing you, was held at gunpoint?"
This is what I noted down. I don't know whether I wrote everything correctly. But that's what I heard.
In any case, whatever Mr. Vanderpuye said, I accept it.
MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
Q. Let's look at paragraph 162, please. Before that, I need to say that this is an interview given by Egbers in 1997.
Let's look at paragraph 162. Page 18, paragraph 162. The second paragraph.
Apologies, my mistake. P1145, page 5. This is Egbers's statement, because I wanted to refer to both documents. So as not to waste any time, let's have a look at what Egbers says in paragraph 145.
We can see his statement. Let's look at the penultimate paragraph: 15393 "On return, Lutke and I were stopped by Bosnian Serb soldiers. I saw a barracks ahead. A soldier pointed a gun at our vehicle. He ordered me to get out. I saw some ten of our men who had accompanied a convoy at the barricade. A soldier noted my name next to the road where the others were who had also been escorting a convoy. I asked to speak to a responsible officer. An hour later, I was taken to a small school." My question is this: Is it customary for check-point soldiers to stop all those approaching, with weapons, because they don't know if someone is an UNPROFOR member until that person shows their ID, or if someone else just put on a UN uniform?
A. The rules of manning check-points is regulated either by the rules of service or separate order. And the basic rule is that if a check-point was set up, then there must be a specific task, due to which the check-point was set up and what the tasks of those manning it are. A check-point may serve different functions. First and foremost, it is usually to control vehicles and persons moving along a certain route. And military policemen are authorised to check the IDs of all those stopped at the check-point. They can also search them.
Q. Thank you, Mr. Malinic. Let us correct my mistake from before. Let's look at P1143, which is Egbers's interview, paragraph 145 we saw a moment ago.
In the preceding paragraphs, he described how he came to see you in that particular facility. Then he says that some orders must have been issued by your battalion to take care of the UN personnel and I asked him -- 15394
THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please specify where he is reading from.
THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] General Tolimir, General Tolimir, could you tell us from where exactly you are reading? This would facilitate the task of the interpreters. Could you just tell us from where, from which position in the text you are reading.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I was reading paragraphs 145 and 146.
MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
Q. The quote is: "I did have that impression. At a certain point, that school was attacked by the Muslims, two Muslims. I think no more than that [sic]."
A. I apologise, I did not understand your question because I was busy reading.
Q. Thank you. My question is this: Was the school attacked while the UNPROFOR members were in it, as Mr. Egbers said?
A. Yes. Immediately following their arrival in the barracks, there was an attack by the Muslim forces on the school, or the barracks, where some officers and soldiers were. That is where the UNPROFOR soldiers were at that moment as well, when the attack began.
Q. In paragraph 149 that we see here, the question was: "Was it really a suicide attack by these two men?"
And in paragraph 150, he says: "Yes, indeed. Or they thought, Let's first shoot a little and 15395 then get away quickly. That is also possible, of course. We don't know that. Well, I don't know anything else about that."
My question is this: Did you repel the attack and did you protect the UNPROFOR members and the unit that was in the facility?
A. General, I think what we read before that is also important, which is that Lieutenant Egbers assessed that these were two Muslim soldiers who attacked the school with small-calibre weapons. I don't know why he concluded there were two, and if he actually saw them, because the area where the attack came from was in the woods, and he had no possibility of seeing anyone from where he was. He simply couldn't see the situation.
As for his statement that I took two prisoners and pushed them in front of me, is a lie. He said himself that he didn't participate in that skirmish. He returned and did not take any active participation. And, yet, a flew lines before that, he said that I was pushing the two prisoners in front of me as a human shield, without participating in the action. It's nonsensical. First of all, I don't know where his assessment comes from that these were two Muslims firing at the barracks and that they had small-calibre weapons.
Also, you asked me about this part, where he says that he didn't know if it was a suicide attack or an actual attempt to break through the blockade line at that location.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Excuse me, please. I did not want to interrupt the witness, but I wanted to tell the French booth that I can no longer hear the French interpretation. I haven't heard it for a 15396 while, so I don't know if it can be corrected.
You may continue, Mr. Tolimir.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Could we please have P857. We have seen it today. It's a satellite image, number 2 of Kasaba. I don't know what its exact number is that it was admitted under.
We can see it now.
MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
Q. My question is this: In these yellow circles, is that people who are inside?
A. Yes, I think so.
Q. Do you know the size of the pitch, or can you tell us how many people could have been there at 2.00 p.m.?
A. If I look at the size of the pitch and the size of the two rectangles, it would be my conclusion that at the pitch in Nova Kasaba at 2.00 p.m., there were up to 3- or 400 prisoners. By means at the disposal of this Tribunal, I'm pretty certain that an accurate calculation could be made as to the number of prisoners, if we take into account the size of the rectangles and compare that to the size of the pitch. I believe it can be precisely determined what the number of prisoners was. We can even measure the pitch as it is today, so as to know what its exact size is and compare that to the size of the two rectangles. I believe that it would be a calculation that could be as high as 95 per cent accurate as to the number of people in Kasaba on that day at 2.00. 15397
Q. So as not to have to calculate that, can you tell us how many prisoners boarded those buses, since they were all registered? Actually, the military police unit carried out their registration.
A. I cannot be precise how many prisoners were put on the buses on the 13th of July in the afternoon. But I think the number was between 1.000 and 1.200.
As for the lists of captured soldiers, they were handed over to the regiment command. It is clear on those lists who the people captured were, when they were captured, and whether they had any documents with them or not, personal documents.
Q. Thank you. Since you mentioned the regimental command, can you tell us whether the command was familiar with the incident in which one of the prisoners was killed in -- on the field?
A. Yes. The regimental command was informed of the incident, when the prisoner was killed at the field in Nova Kasaba.
Q. Thank you. Since we have 15 minutes left, let me ask you this, which is something I forgot to ask you about Egbers. Did he leave the Mercedes vehicles behind or did you seize them from him?
A. Mr. Egbers received an approval from his superior command to go back to the base in Potocari. In order to protect his personnel from being exposed to any gun-fire along the way, it was for that reason that he came to my office. He gave me the keys to the vehicles, and just before leaving, and before he brought the keys, he personally received a rifle from me as a souvenir so that he would remember his stay in 15398 Nova Kasaba.
Something else I wanted to say about Lieutenant Egbers. Since he was constantly in touch with his command, it might be useful to try and locate any conversations he had with his command and the reports he sent on the 13th, 14th, and 15th of July. He had an overview of the entire situation at that time. Based on his statement, and I can see he gave it on September 2, 1999, which is four years later, I think the most credible source would be to check his reports to his command while he was in Nova Kasaba.
Q. Thank you. Since you just said that, I now need to go back to P1143, which is Mr. Egbers's statement. He mentions the very fact in paragraph 162, paragraph 2, and paragraphs 163 and 164. We can see it here. In paragraph 142, he says -- we're reading from the sixth line in paragraph 145.
THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please provide exact reference.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My mistake. Paragraph 162; 162, not 145.
THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter in the French booth apologies. There seems to be a technical problem. It's not working.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. We can see it now in the English but not in the Serbian.
MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
Q. We can see --
[French on English Channel] 15399
MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
Q. Paragraph 2 of paragraph 162, "In my view," et cetera, "I knew the situation," I'll skip that:
"I had driven along the road. I knew what there was along that road. I was worried about the safety of my own troops. I proposed once again exactly that we all go in an armoured vehicle of the Bosnian Serbs and that we disable the two vehicles and leave them behind. Franken gave us permission for this."
In paragraph 163 the question is: "Did you get Franken personally on the line?"
Paragraph 164: "Yes, it was Franken himself. But that went via Satcom. You type it in."
My question is this: Did I quote correctly, and is what Mr. Egbers said correct, which is that he disabled the vehicles and handed you the keys?
A. He only took the communication equipment from the two vehicles. I don't know much about it because their technology was very up to date and much more modern than ours. In any case, he took that equipment with him and the vehicles were not disabled. They functioned properly. When the UN forces were leaving Potocari, no one came back for those vehicles because they were handed over to me and a certificate -- a receipt was issued against it. Later on, the vehicles were used for the needs of the battalion and the 65th Protection Regiment.
Q. Thank you. At page 51 of yesterday's transcript of the 8th of 15400 June, in line 12, you say that you were transferred to Serbia via Klagenfurt, and then to Sarajevo after you escaped from Varazdin. Can you explain that situation to us, and were you transferred or expelled to Slovenia and Austria, and in what way were you returned to your home country through different countries?
A. When I was taken prisoner at the Trinaesti Maj Barracks, where I was serving in the military police battalion as the assistant commander for morale, together with a group of other officers from the military police, these were four officers from this service. Two soldiers who worked in the military police service, and one lieutenant with two APCs, I think that these were the BVP M80 type. That was the composition of the group in the barracks. The barracks had been moved out, but as the Yugoslav People's Army, we had received an order not to surrender any army facility to anyone. Once we were captured by the ZNG troops, they kept us at a hunter's lodge, or a mountaineer's lodge, where they questioned us and where our former colleagues from state security interviewed the officers. People were taken out to be shot, but it turned out that these were not actual executions by firing squad but that this was just a stage show.
After several days through Ormoz, we were transported to Slovenia.
Q. [Microphone not activated]
THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the accused, please. Overlapping speakers. We cannot interpret at this rate.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I just wanted to have 15401 the witness say for the record from which country were they transported to Slovenia. Thank you.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I continue?
MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
Q. Yes, please.
JUDGE MINDUA: [No interpretation]
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was the crossing at Ormoz where state security forces of Slovenia immediately came and continued to question the soldiers and officers who were transported there.
It lasted for one or two days, and those had been my colleagues, up until the previous day, in military police and who had joined the Slovenian police, took part in the questioning. As my acquaintance is from Slovenia, I called him, and in his vehicle from Ormoz, he took me to the boarder with Austria, where, in Austria, I got on a plane and I came to Sarajevo, and after that, I returned to Belgrade. There was no possibility of having other transport because the whole road was blocked. You couldn't travel overland in the direction of Bosnia or Serbia because all roads had been closed down. This was the only possibility to reach Bosnia.
MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
Q. Thank you. But you have not answered my question. As a member of the Yugoslav People's Army, once you were captured in Vukovar in Croatia, were you exported to a foreign country, and did you return to your home country from that foreign country later on? 15402
A. I'm sorry, I think it was wasn't Vukovar but, rather, Varazdin. Yes. The answer is yes.
Q. Thank you. On page 51, you also talked about those who were killed in the hospital in Sarajevo, those from your unit. Can you tell us whether you know what was the total number of those who were killed, both in Dobrovoljacka Street and in the other location which you described? Thank you.
A. I can say how many dead from the detachment there were. That happened on 2nd of May, 1992. And as for the incident in Dobrovoljacka Street, that was on the 3rd of May, 1992. Perhaps I could quote or, rather, tell you from my memory what the media carried; that there were more than 40 dead on the whole, taking both the 2nd and the 3rd of May. I mean the dead members of the JNA in Dobrovoljacka Street and at Skenderija.
Q. Thank you. Please tell us whether you were also attacked in Croatia by forces who were not constitutionally legitimate and legalised as armed forces at the time. Did the same thing also happen in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and was the JNA attacked by paramilitary formations in these two republics?
A. As I worked in Croatia, when I discharged the duty as the military police battalion commander, we had much co-operation with their anti-terrorist unit which was attached to the Croatian MUP. As they could do not do some exercises, like shooting from a helicopter which was part of their training, then they did this exercise together with members of my unit at the Slunj training ground. At the time, in Croatia, great 15403 pressure was excerpted on members of the military police. Officers were offered money to cross over to them and train their army, which was being established but which was not legitimate and it was not legal. They offered money. If you refused -- just for you to leave the JNA and leave Croatia. Some officers, whether it was due to pressure because of their families which live there, accepted such deals. I was personally threatened in Varazdin that they would kill my family because they knew where I lived and where my family was.
I experienced such things from people I had worked together with until recently. Such things also happened in Bosnia and Herzegovina, once the unit went there. In the beginning, our main task was to set up a military police -- or, rather, the military police battalion, and the protection regiment had the task to form mixed patrol units with the local MUP which functioned in the beginning. Later on, the police split along ethnic lines, and such units no longer existed; I mean, the joint patrol units no longer existed in the city. There was sporadic shooting in Sarajevo, sporadic fire from various sides. And, as for the outbreak of war, the 22nd of April can be taken as the date, as 12 people were killed by Muslim forces when they were attacked in the area of the Hotel Srbija. The Yugoslav People's Army got involved, and the first units which came out to the ground came out into the territory of Ilidza municipality. This is what I know about the outbreak of the war there. There are many issues that we could also discuss in relation with this, but I think that -- I'm not sure whether time will allow us to do that, to discuss the incidents where the attacks on the JNA occurred. 15404
Q. [No interpretation]
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness. General Tolimir, I realise that it is 13 hours and 47 minutes, so we will undoubtedly not be able to finish today, since we have no more time.
I assume you haven't finished. Please put your microphone on because I can't hear you.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I tried to speed up, to finish my examination so that the witness wouldn't sit here and wait for a week. So if you would allow Mr. Vanderpuye to ask additional questions, I think I did not move out of the framework of cross-examination so that the witness wouldn't have to wait. I have no further questions. I just need to ask the witness, because he said that he was falsely accused of certain crimes, if he wanted to tell us something about that. Because it is my duty to ask him this. And, if necessary, we might move to -- do you agree that by 12.00 Mr. Vanderpuye should finish, if I could reduce my cross-examination to 45 minutes, then he might reduce his additional re-examination to 15 minutes and then we might release this witness. Thank you.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] General Tolimir, why are you finishing your cross-examination now, since you still have enough time, and you have not had or used your three-hour allotted time? You feel you wish to end your cross-examination now. Is that right?
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's right, Mr. President. I believe that we should finish everything today so that the witness would 15405 not have to wait another five days for another 15 minutes. This is what I did, and I don't mind it if you don't mind. Thank you. I would just ask one additional question and then I would end my examination. I would just like to give the witness a chance to answer that one question.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Go ahead and put your additional question, in that case.
MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]
Q. My additional question is this: Do you feel any need to say anything about false accusations which were made against you earlier and which caused you certain problems? If you don't wish to do that in open session, we might move to private session. Thank you.
A. In the statement which I gave at the ICTY office in Belgrade, I said everything, because the Prosecutor, or, rather, the investigator, told me that I had committed a war crime and why did General Krstic point his finger at me as someone who had committed a war crime. I answered that that was not a question for me, but, rather, for General Krstic. Namely, what were the reasons why he mentioned not just me but also the unit which I commanded, and what made him say that. Was it the position where we were, shifting the burden of guilt to a unit which was not part of the Drina Corps? Maybe that was the reason for justifying his own activities. I really couldn't say what his reasons for that may have been. I was very surprised by the fact when it was mentioned in the media. I had no opportunity, nor did this Tribunal ever call me before 2005 to give any sort of statement about the events which took place in 15406 the relevant period in Nova Kasaba. I do have my opinion about all this, but I rather wouldn't state it here before the Tribunal. It's a personal matter which remains such. I wouldn't like to state any counteraccusations against anyone or blame anyone for incidents that I do not know much about and that I'm not certain about.
That is it.
Q. Thank you so much, Mr. Malinic. Thank you for coming here. God bless you. Thank you for coming here, and I wish you happy return home.
A. Thank you, too. I wish you much health, a long life, and I hope you will manage to defend yourself by using arguments before this Tribunal.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this is what the Defence had to ask this witness. Perhaps he could be re-examined here so that he could go home and wouldn't have to wait another five days for 15 minutes. Thank you.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Tolimir, for your cross-examination.
Mr. Prosecutor, do you have any additional questions?
MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I do have a few questions, and I see that we've got about -- we're overtime, actually, I think. And the nature of the examination is relatively short, which I don't think it would be worth keeping him here for a long time to deal with. This is unfortunate, because General Tolimir had estimated three hours, I think, which obviously would have required the witness returning, in any event, whereby, I would be able to conduct a, at least, effective re-direct 15407 examination. But I don't think I can do that in this amount of time. So I leave it to your discretion. I don't know what the witness's schedule is like to determine whether or not he should continue on Tuesday. If his inclination is that he has to leave and he can't be here Tuesday because of family commitments, work commitments, or some other reason, and that's fine with the Court, then I will abide by that. But, otherwise, I would like to ask him just a few questions.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] How much time would you need to ask those questions?
MR. VANDERPUYE: I don't think much more than five or ten minutes. Obviously it depends on the length of his answers. But not more than five or ten minutes. But I see that we don't have that, unfortunately.
[Trial Chamber confers]
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Mr. Witness, could you be here on Tuesday once again, because ...
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If need be, and if I have to, I'll stay.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] General Tolimir.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, once you allow me to leave, I wait for Radovan Karadzic, because he stays up until 3.00 p.m. every day. So if only ten or 15 minutes are needed, can't we prolong this for ten or 15 minutes to save something for the Tribunal and so that this man wouldn't have to stay here another five days because there would be a five-day break? This is why I tried to speed up my examination. 15408
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very good. Well, as you can see, the Chamber is made up of two Judges today. We cannot continue because Judge Nyambe has other arrangements that should begin very soon. Therefore, we have to adjourn and we will resume on Tuesday. The session is adjourned.
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.56 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 14th day of June,
2011, at 2.15 p.m.