8307 Wednesday, 1 December 2010
[The accused entered court]
--- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon to everybody. Is the next witness ready?
MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. He is. Good afternoon to you, good afternoon, Your Honours, and everyone. The next witness is ready, Mr. President. However, before bringing him into the courtroom I had indicated or asked to make a preliminary application in two respects.
First is that, given this witness's involvement in the events concerning the Skorpions execution video that you've seen, I would ask for him to be given a caution pursuant to Rule 90(E) of our rules. The second is, having met with him for the first time a little earlier this morning, he indicated for the first time that he would like protective measures in respect of his testimony. The extent of the protective measures he seeks is face distortion and not a pseudonym, and -- if we can go into private session, please, Mr. President.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private.
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THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, for the record, we are back in open session. Thank you.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now, please rise and stand for a moment, sir. Would you please read aloud the affirmation on the card which is shown to you now.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. And please sit down again. I think before the Prosecution starts with the examination-in-chief, I would like to give you some guidance about your position and your rights. Rule 90(E) of our Rules of Procedure and Evidence has a paragraph which I would like to read out for you. I quote:
"A witness may object to making any statement which might tend to incriminate the witness. The Chamber may, however, compel the witness to answer the question. Testimony compelled in this way shall not be used as evidence in subsequent prosecution against the witness for any offence other than false testimony."
Sir, did you understand what I was reading to you? 8314
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Now, I suppose, Mr. Prosecutor, Mr. Vanderpuye, has some questions for you.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. Indeed I do.
WITNESS: SLOBODAN STOJKOVIC
[Witness answered through interpreter] Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:
Q. Good afternoon to you, Mr. Stojkovic. We didn't receive a translation of his answer. I think he said good afternoon.
THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters could not hear the witness.
Q. I am going to ask you to try to keep your voice up and allow a moment between the question and your answer so that the interpreters can both hear you and have an adequate opportunity to translate what you say and what I say so that it's clear for everyone in the courtroom. Did you understand that?
Q. All right. Now in July 1995 were you a member of the so-called Skorpions Unit?
Q. And how long had you been a member of this unit prior to that time? 8315
A. From 1991 -- or, rather, I joined in May 1992, and I was a member of the Skorpion Unit since then.
Q. In July 1995, where was this unit based?
A. It was based at Trnovo.
Q. Where was its headquarters?
A. The command was at Djeletovci.
Q. Can you tell us about how many members comprised this unit?
A. You mean all the members or only those who were out in the field?
Q. All of the members.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic.
MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, on page 9, line 6, the witness mentioned the name of the place but it wasn't properly recorded, so I kindly ask the Prosecutor to clarify. It is only for the sake of the record.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think Mr. Gajic is right. I heard another name.
MR. VANDERPUYE: I am not sure whether Mr. Gajic is referring to Trnovo, which I see in the transcript, or Djeletovci, which I see in the transcript at line 6. Maybe that's the one.
Q. And if that's the case, can you tell us where the unit was headquartered.
A. Well, now, I don't quite understand the question. You mean the headquarters in the field or the headquarters where we were founded, where we worked, and functioned? So I need additional explanation.
Q. The headquarters were you worked and where you were founded, 8316 where you set out from.
A. The name of that place is Djeletovci.
Q. And where is that?
A. Today it's in the Republic of Croatia.
Q. Where was it then, in 1995?
A. In 1995 there was the Republic of Serb Krajina.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I interrupt for a moment. I don't know how to explain that in English. It is not better yet, but even worse. I quite clearly heard the name Djeletovci. Can you please repeat the name of this village. Is it Djeletovci?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Djeletovci, D -- It is not Deletovci but Djeletovci, D-J-E-L-E-T-O-V-C-I.
THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's remark.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: It is again not recorded correctly. Can you -- I am very sorry, can you repeat that very slowly.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is Djeletovci. In our language it isn't written with an initial "Dj," but the initial letter is Dz.
THE INTERPRETER: Which doesn't exist in the English alphabet, interpreter's remark.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: And now I would like to ask you to repeat the name very slowly.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Djeletovci.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, carry on.
MR. VANDERPUYE: There is a problem there, Mr. President, that I think the witness's last answer to you was not recorded in the 8317 transcript, despite all our efforts. So I think if we just have him spell it into the record, that might be the most efficient way to do it.
Q. So if you could, just spell the name into the record. And use your alphabet so we record it correctly.
A. Well, I've already said: Djeletovci. The initial letter is "Dj."
Q. Thank you. You indicated that Djeletovci was in the Republic of Serb Krajina in 1995; is that right?
Q. I asked you approximately, if you can tell us, how many members the Skorpions Unit had in 1995. There is -- that includes the members in the field and also the members in the headquarters in Djeletovci.
A. About 230 to 250.
Q. And in 1995 was your unit provided with uniforms and other identifying insignia indicating that you were members of the Skorpions Unit?
A. We became members of the Skorpions in 1994. The name goes back to that year. We received uniforms, military insignia, a military post number.
Q. Just so that we can be clear in the record, the uniforms that you received, can you just briefly describe them, and then describe the military insignia and the military post number, if you can tell us what that is, or was, as long as you can recall that.
A. I cannot remember what the military post number was. I forgot it. And as for the uniforms, they were black overalls with insignia on 8318 the shoulders. We had Skorpion insignia, and we also wore berets, black or red ones. We were issued both colours. And the commanders wore American uniforms which were not overalls. They were green.
Q. Were you issued identification cards or anything of that nature in order to identify yourselves as members of the unit as well?
Q. And do you recall what the identification cards provided? What did they say?
A. Those were regular ID cards, just like the military booklets, the military IDs in former Yugoslavia.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sorry for interrupting you. I would like to ask one question.
You said, sir, that you were wearing black overalls with insignia on the shoulders. "We had Skorpion insignia." You said "on the shoulders." On both shoulders? On both upper arms? And if yes, were they identical?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they were identical and on both sleeves.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. Mr. Vanderpuye.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
Q. In 1995 can you tell us what your regular responsibility was within the unit?
A. In the Skorpions I was active in logistics, comprising the cafeteria and the kitchen for the soldiers. I was head of the kitchen 8319 and I was also in charge of some supplies; that is, food. This was my job. I was responsible for supplies.
Q. And before this period of time, that is, before July of 1995, did you occupy any other position within this unit?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Could you tell us what that position or what those positions were?
A. I was head of a reconnaissance unit.
Q. And how long did you perform that particular duty in the unit?
A. Almost two years. Or maybe a year and a half. I don't remember precisely, but not longer than two years.
Q. In July 1995, who was in command of the Skorpions Unit?
A. Slobodan Medic, also known as Boca.
Q. And had he been in command of the unit since you joined it in 1992, I think you've indicated?
Q. And who was the unit's second in command or deputy commander?
A. Aleksandar Vukov was deputy commander.
Q. And had he been in that position since you joined the unit as well?
A. No, not during that period.
Q. Was he the deputy commander in July 1995?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. I want to ask you about some other members of this unit. Are you familiar with Branislav Medic? 8320
Q. Was he a member of the unit in July 1995?
Q. Are you familiar with Aleksandar Medic?
Q. Was he also a member of the unit in July 1995?
Q. All right. Before I go on, let me ask you, Branislav Medic, what was his position within the unit?
A. He was a driver and he also maintained vehicles.
Q. What about Aleksandar Medic?
A. Aleksandar Medic was a member of the commander's security detail.
Q. Slobodan Davidovic, do you know who he is?
Q. And was he also a member of the unit in July 1995?
Q. What was his position?
A. He was a member of the commander's security detail.
Q. Are you familiar with Milorad Momic?
Q. Was he also a member of the unit in July 1995?
Q. And what was his position?
A. The commander's security detail.
Q. Do you know who Pera Petrasevic is? 8321
Q. Was he also a member of the unit in 1995 and a member of the commander's security detail?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. In 1995, aside from Trnovo, as you've indicated, was the unit assigned to any other locations in Bosnia or Bosnia and Herzegovina?
A. No other location in 1995 apart from Trnovo.
Q. With respect to your assignment to the Trnovo area, can you tell us when you received this assignment to go there?
A. As far as I remember, it was about a week before departure. It was in July 1995. I don't remember the exact date. I don't quite remember when we got the news, but I know that during the last days I went off to procure food. We procured our own food and we had to take care to obtain some.
Q. Did you procure this food in advance or in anticipation of the assignment to go to Trnovo in particular?
A. No, I didn't know precisely where we were going, but I had a superior who knew some things that I didn't. But I did know that I had two or three days to procure food for a certain number of soldiers. I know -- or, rather, I knew how many soldiers were supposed to go and then I knew exactly how much food was required so they have enough when they set off.
Q. How many soldiers were supposed to go?
A. As far as I remember, 120 or 130. I cannot be sure as to the exact number. 8322
Q. What was the purpose of the unit or that number of soldiers being sent to the Trnovo area?
A. I don't know that. You will have to ask the commander. To my understanding, they were supposed to hold the line there, at Trnovo. Nothing else, as far as I knew.
Q. When you say "hold the line," do you mean participate in combat operations in that area?
A. Well, certainly there would be combat in case of an attack from the enemy, but we were not an assault unit. We were a defensive unit. That's why we did that.
Q. And I take it that in participating in holding the line, that your unit was expected to work in conjunction with the armed forces of the Republika Srpska?
Q. And that would be in co-ordination with the Army of Republika Srpska, the VRS?
Q. And also the MUP of the Republika Srpska; is that right?
A. Well, I don't know that aspect. I can't answer that question because I really don't know.
Q. Do you recall who you heard the information from regarding the assignment to go to Trnovo? You mentioned a superior; can you tell us who that is?
A. I did have a superior. It was Branislav Vucenovic who was my immediate superior, and there was also Slobodan Medic, Boca, but it was 8323 from him that I got direct instructions as to what I should do and what preparations should be made.
Q. From "him" meaning Vucenovic or from "him" meaning Boca?
Q. Now, do you recall the trip that the unit made to Trnovo in any detail?
A. I can't really remember all the details because I was very busy during those two days. I had a lot of work procuring food so that I spoke -- slept from Djeletovci to Bijeljina. I don't know what happened during that time, but I woke up at Bijeljina and I drove a refrigerator truck all the way to Pale -- well, no, it isn't Pale. What's the name of the place, the skiing centre on Mount Jahorina, next to the Sator Hotel.
Q. Well, I would like to ask you a little bit about how the unit got from Djeletovci to Jahorina. Was it transported in trucks, buses, other kinds of vehicles? Can you tell us about that?
A. As far as I remember, there were both trucks and buses.
Q. And you indicated that you slept until the unit arrived in Bijeljina; is that right?
Q. All right. So you don't know the specific route that the unit took to get from Djeletovci to Bijeljina; is that right?
Q. And Bijeljina at the time would be in Bosnia, right?
Q. You mentioned that you drove a truck from Bijeljina to Jahorina; 8324 is that right?
Q. And how many people were in the truck that you drove?
A. The two of us.
Q. Meaning whom?
A. Me and Branislav Vucenovic.
Q. And what was it that you were transporting in your truck?
Q. Do you recall the route that you took to get from Bijeljina to Jahorina?
A. I think that we travelled through Zvornik and Han Pijesak, Pale, and from Pale we went up to Jahorina.
Q. And I take it that in driving this truck through these areas, Zvornik, Han Pijesak, Pale, and ultimately Jahorina, you passed through a number of check-points?
A. I didn't notice any.
Q. So you were never stopped by any army or MUP within the Republika Srpska in order to transport this food in your truck and, as well, the other soldiers within your unit through to Jahorina; is that right?
A. Not as far as I know. That may have been the case, but I was in the rear, at the end of the convoy.
Q. I see. So you were never provided with any papers or documents to present in case the convoy were to be inspected by officials of Republika Srpska, meaning the army or the MUP.
A. They didn't stop me and I don't see why they should have. But, 8325 anyway, they didn't.
Q. Were you provided with a plan or a route of the convoy before your departure from either Djeletovci or Bijeljina?
A. No. I was just in the convoy. That was enough.
Q. Now, you've indicated that you passed through Zvornik, Han Pijesak, Pale, and Jahorina. Did you stop in all of those places before you arrived in Jahorina, or anyplace else?
A. As far as I know, we didn't stop anywhere.
Q. Did you stop in Jahorina for any amount of time?
Q. And what was the purpose of stopping in Jahorina?
A. I think that we spent a day or two at Jahorina. I am not sure, but it was at least one day. We spent the night there.
Q. All right. And what was the purpose of stopping in Jahorina? I take it that you were on your way to Trnovo, right?
A. About the purpose, I don't know, but I know that on the following day we set off for Trnovo.
MR. VANDERPUYE: If I could have 65 ter 7003 in e-court, please.
Q. What I am showing you is an entry in the 20 April 2007 judgement of the Belgrade Court, the War Crimes Chamber. And just bear with me a moment, I will give you the page number.
MR. VANDERPUYE: But I think we will need page 55 in English and page 45 in B/C/S.
Q. What you should have in front of you is some of that Trial Chamber's findings concerning the Defence of the accused in that case, 8326 Branislav Medic. And what I would like to refer you to is, in the English, it's about halfway through the long paragraph on that page, and it reads as follows, and maybe I can orient you to it. It reads: "They took the weapons from Djeletovci, except for smaller ammunition, and everything else they needed they obtained in Trnovo from the military command of the Bosnian units, and the Maljutkas, bombs, mortar shells, and other items they brought from Jahorina. You should find that in the paragraph in the top of the page in the B/C/S, just after where you can see, I think, the number 150. Does that comport with your recollection of what transpired while you were in Jahorina?
A. Well, this detail is not familiar to me, that we picked up this ammunition, because we had our own ammunition, we had our own mortars with us, and as far as I know we did not pick up anything there other than bread.
Q. All right. Do you recall or do you know if members of your unit had any contact with members of the VRS, the Army of Republika Srpska, or MUP officials of the Republika Srpska while you were in Jahorina?
A. I really don't know about that part. Maybe they did, but I don't know.
Q. Did you hear about anything like that?
A. Well, I don't really know. I was more in the logistics part, so I really don't know what they discussed. I did hear that he went to meet the commander, but what they discussed I really don't know.
Q. You heard that who went to meet the commander, and which 8327 commander?
A. Well, my commander, Slobodan Medic, attended some meetings, but whom he met with or what they discussed, I don't know about that.
Q. He attended meetings while you were in Jahorina; is that right?
A. Well, I don't know anything about that. He may have, but I really don't remember.
Q. Fair enough. But is that what you heard?
A. Well, as far as I can remember, no, there was no mention of any of that.
Q. All right. Can you tell us about how all the circumstances under which you set out, your unit set out, from Trnovo -- I mean, from Jahorina to Trnovo.
A. I am not sure I understand your question. What do you mean under what circumstances, or what the circumstances were?
Q. Did you leave with the same number of individuals that were in Jahorina? Did they go to Trnovo?
A. No, they did not all go to Trnovo. Some of them remained at Hotel Sator at Jahorina, some six men or so, and also a trailer-truck remained there. There was some foodstuff left in the truck, the things we couldn't fit in the refrigerator truck, but there was also ammunition there and everything that we needed for the unit, including fuel. And whatever the unit had, whatever materiel they had, they took with them, and we then also went to Hotel Sator where we would take things we needed and replenish our assets.
Q. How many people went from Jahorina to Trnovo? 8328
A. Well, I don't know exactly the number, but at least 120 men. I just know for certain that six people remained behind at Jahorina.
Q. Do you know why they remained behind in Jahorina?
A. Well, all I know is that this trailer-truck was left there with the materiel that was needed for replenishment, so somebody had to stay there with that. In other words, buses, the trailer-truck, and their drivers remained there, and a number of men who had to guard those buses and trailer-trucks.
Q. All right. Can you tell us about how far it was from Jahorina to Trnovo?
A. Well, at the time, we took the path through the woods. I couldn't tell you exactly how far it was then, but it took us about three hours to get there. Now, in kilometres, I really wouldn't know how far that was, but I know that we set out at night. So I really can't guess now what the kilometres -- how far it was in terms of kilometres.
Q. When you arrived in Trnovo, can you tell us, did you or members of your unit have any contact with VRS officers or MUP officials there? MUP officials meaning of the Republika Srpska.
A. I did not have any contacts with anyone. There was no need for that. Those who did have the need probably had their contacts, because it was logical to expect that the commander would have to meet with someone to talk about where to put up the men and so on, because how else would he have known because he had never been there before.
Q. Do you know who the commander met with to talk about these specific issues? 8329
A. I don't know.
Q. Would they have been officers of the Bosnian Army or of the -- I should say the VRS, or of the Republika Srpska MUP?
A. I really don't know who he met with. He certainly did meet with some people, but who it was I don't know.
Q. All right.
MR. VANDERPUYE: I see we still have 65 ter 7003 in e-court. We are at page 35.
Q. I read to you a portion of it a moment ago, and in particular I read to you a part of this document which mentions that, and with respect to weapons, that everything else needed was obtained in Trnovo from the military command of the Bosnian units. Do you have any information concerning the obtaining of ammunition or weapons from the Bosnian units, meaning the VRS or the MUP, in the Trnovo area?
A. Well, as far as I know, there was no need for us to obtain any ammunition there because we had the ammunition we took with us. Now, that may have been the case, but I don't know anything about it. But as far as I know, we did not get or weren't issued anything.
Q. All right. I want to take you a little bit further down the page, and it's about two sentences from where I left off, where it reads: "When they arrived in Trnovo, the commander went to a meeting with Bosnian officers ..."
Do you know anything about that?
A. Well, I don't know. He may have gone to meet someone, but I really can't recall. He probably did have a conversation with someone, 8330 but I really don't know anything about it.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic.
MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just a suggestion: Perhaps the Prosecutor can clarify with the witness, or, rather, what portion of the decision, judgement, he is reading from. Perhaps we can then see whether these were the words of a witness or whether these were the findings of that particular court. So perhaps he can clarify that, for the purpose of the record.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: That would be helpful for a better understanding, Mr. Vanderpuye.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, and I do appreciate that, and I think I actually have done it but I will do it again.
These relate to the judgements, findings, or assessment of the defence of the accused of Branislav Medic. It is designated 6.5 in this document. And so this is what the Trial Chamber in that case has assessed of the evidence that was given in respect of that defence.
Q. So I have asked you whether you are familiar with these circumstances, not with the words of the judgement or the findings of the judgement.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: And which line is it you are referring to in the B/C/S and the English? I don't find it at the moment.
MR. VANDERPUYE: I can't tell you the exact line. I can tell you that it's in the first paragraph in the B/C/S, it's about three-quarters or two-thirds into that paragraph. In the English, it's exactly in the middle of the paragraph that is on the screen. 8331
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Yeah. If you -- maybe it will be helpful to indicate -- it's immediately preceded by the number 30. So if you can find number 30 in there and you will see the exact entry.
Q. So I have asked you, Mr. Stojkovic, whether you are familiar with the commander having gone to a meeting with Bosnian officers --
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic is on his feet. Please let him announce his comment.
MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, my apologies for interrupting again, you know I don't like to do that and do not resort to it very often, but perhaps the Prosecutor can further clarify. I believe it is only as of page 48 of this judgement that the facts are laid out, whereas the portion which is now being put to the witness is, in fact, a short summary of the witness's words and testimony before this Court. Perhaps I can also find the exact spot, but you can clearly see that the facts are established only in portion 7 of the judgement, which begins at page 48.
THE WITNESS: This is not my testimony or my statement.
MR. GAJIC: Of course. We are referring here to the accused who were the accused in the case before the Belgrade Court.
MR. VANDERPUYE: I appreciate the comment from my friend Mr. Gajic, although I don't think it has any relevance in terms of the issues I have put to the witness because I'm asking the witness not about the veracity or accuracy of any findings or any statement of anyone else, I am asking him specifically whether he has familiarity with the 8332 circumstances that are indicated in this document, and that's a pretty simple question: He either does or he doesn't. I don't think whether it's the words of a witness, the findings of a judgement, or some other person's statement that has any bearing on whether or not he's familiar with the circumstances that are recounted.
So I will put my question again, which is:
Q. Are you familiar with the circumstances that are recounted in this document about a meeting between the commander, which I assume is Boca, and Bosnian officers when your unit arrived in Trnovo in July 1995?
A. I really don't know. It may have been the case, but I don't know anything about it. I did not have such information available to me.
Q. Let me take you to page 85 in English, and it should be page 65 in the B/C/S. I think this one may be a little bit easier to find. I believe this area relates to the findings of the Court, but I am sure my colleague Mr. Gajic will correct me if that's incorrect. Nevertheless, in the italicised part of this document on page 65, it reads that: "After going to Republika Srpska, to the area of Trnovo, the 'Skorpioni' Unit was on the combat line in the zone of responsibility of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps of the Army of Republika Srpska." First, Mr. Stojkovic, are you aware of this and does this comport with your recollection of the events concerning the unit -- your Skorpions Unit that was assigned to that area?
A. Yes, this is where our unit was deployed, but now I am hearing also for the first time what that area was known as, the name of it. I didn't even know what it was called. 8333
Q. All right. And you see, in the next line, it says: "The head of the Sarajevo Romanija Corps at that time was General Milosevic."
Did you know that at the time or have you learned that since?
A. I didn't know then nor do I know now. It was irrelevant to me who the commander was there; I knew who my commander was.
Q. All right. In the following paragraph, it reads that: "From the moment they came to the Trnovo area, the 'Skorpioni' Unit was, as the Court had established on the basis of the testimony of the witness Milanovic, acting pursuant to the orders of the Army of Republika Srpska corps commander, in this concrete case, General Milosevic. From what it could be concluded that in that area it did not have any connections with the home corps and was exclusively under the commander either of a corps or a brigade in that zone of responsibility." Per your memory and experience, was it the case that the Skorpion Unit was under the command of a corps or brigade in the area or zone of responsibility in which you found yourselves in the area of Trnovo in July 1995?
A. I don't have that information.
Q. Would it have been the case that a combat unit, such as yours, travelling from Krajina, the Serbian Republic of Krajina, into Bosnia to participate in operations there would fall under the command of a military or MUP unit in that area?
A. Well, that is probably how it should work. Whether that was indeed the case, I really, in this particular instance, I don't know. 8334 The commander should really -- the unit commander should be the one to tell you about it because I didn't know. I had nothing to do with it.
Q. All right. Let me just go over to the next page, please.
MR. VANDERPUYE: That's page 6 -- I'm sorry, just a moment. It should be page 86 in the English, and I think we will stay on page 65 in the B/C/S. And we may have to go over the page if it's not correct. This relates to the --
Q. Well, this segment I am about to read you to relates to the testimony of witness Tomislav Kovac --
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before you turn to this part, may I put a question to the witness.
Your commander, Slobodan Medic, aka Boca, from whom did he receive orders during this operation?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know whom he received his orders from. Probably from someone. But since I was in the rear part, I couldn't -- I wasn't privy to that information nor do I know whom he met with or got his orders from.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. Mr. Vanderpuye -- another question from Judge Mindua.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, Witness. To follow up on what the Presiding Judge has just put to you, you said that you did not know who was giving orders to your commander, and I am talking about Slobodan Medic, aka Boca, so that's for one. But within your unit, I was 8335 wondering whether you would talk with other members of your unit, with other commanders about Slobodan Medic?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]... mean did we talk with them? We've been on speaking terms since I was a kid.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] I have not received the French interpretation. Could we ask the witness to repeat the answer, please.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you please repeat your last answer. We had a problem with the interpretation.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the commander and I have known each other from since we were born. I was born in 1965 and he 1966. We lived in the same town. We always sat together, chatted, had coffee, and so on and so on. If I had any time off, we were there together, but I could never ask him where he was going or whom he had talked with, nor did I care about it, frankly speaking, because we received our orders from him.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well. And indeed since you were playing cards with him and you were talking to him every now and again, I was wondering whether your commander would touch upon the difficulty of his mission, the positive sides of it, or instructions coming from his superiors. Did he not talk at all to his subordinates? Did he not talk to his colleagues?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He probably did but I was not one of that circle of subordinates. I was in the logistics section, and I was only there when they talked about some event to be organised. But as 8336 to what was happening and what was to be done, I don't know anything about that. I just know that on one occasion I was punished and sent to the front line where I actually just -- because I had been sunbathing earlier.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you for your answer.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, would you agree that it would be a good time for the first break?
MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President, I agree.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: We must have our first break now. The Court Usher will assist you during the break and we will resume 20 minutes past 4.00.
--- Recess taken at 3.49 p.m.
--- On resuming at 4.21 p.m.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye. Please continue.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. All right. I think I was on page 86 of the -- page 86 of the judgement.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: In the English.
MR. VANDERPUYE: In the English, that's right. Thank you, Mr. President.
And I was referring the witness to the testimony that was attributed to Tomislav Kovac. If we can go to the next page in the English -- I'm sorry, we were on the right page to begin with. Yes.
Q. At the bottom of the first paragraph, it reads that: "He was informed when this unit arrived at their camp at Jahorina 8337 and that an order was issued that they may spend a night there after which they were to set off to Trnovo where they were to report to the tactical group commander, Ljubisa Borovcanin."
MR. VANDERPUYE: It should be page 66 in the B/C/S.
Q. Ljubisa Borovcanin, of course, was the commander of the special police brigade of the Republika Srpska Ministry of the Interior, of the MUP. Tomislav Kovac was heading that ministry at the time. Were you aware of the responsibility of your unit, or the obligation of your unit, to report to Ljubisa Borovcanin in the area of Trnovo in July of 1995, Mr. Stojkovic?
Q. And do you know if your unit or the command of your unit did, in fact, report to Mr. Borovcanin in and around that time?
A. I don't know that detail. He may have, but I don't know.
Q. If we read a little bit further down this page we will see further evidence is attributed to Mr. Kovac. Right at the top of the second paragraph, in the English, and I think it's the same in the B/C/S, it says:
"From the testimony of the witness Tomislav Kovac, it was also established that the entire Trnovo theater of war, that is the army which fought on that territory, was organised by the principle of municipal brigades. Starting from such an organisation, the tactical orders to the unit 'Skorpioni' were issued by the commander of the brigade in that zone of responsibility, and that was Lieutenant-Colonel Sehovac." Do you have any recollection or information with respect to the 8338 tactical orders that were received by your unit with respect to responsibilities it was to carry out in the Trnovo theater of war in July 1995?
A. I know nothing about what you're saying. I don't know the people you mentioned.
Q. So you have no information that --
JUDGE FLUEGGE: We hear a strange sound in our earphones.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is it possible that you try to use the other microphone? Perhaps there is some interference with the microphones of the witness.
MR. VANDERPUYE: I am not sure, Mr. President. I have heard the -- the feedback is the sound that you are hearing, even when my microphone has been off, so I am not sure. I will try a different microphone. Maybe it's better now. No, I still hear it.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: I was told it has something to do with the earphones and the microphones used by the witness. Perhaps it will be better now.
Please carry on, Mr. Vanderpuye.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now you have two microphones on. Thank you.
Q. The Lieutenant-Colonel Sehovac that's referred to here, and maybe you can see this in the document in front of you, it refers to a Goran Sehovac, was the commander of a light infantry brigade, 2nd Sarajevo 8339 Light Infantry Brigade, in that area.
Now, it's your information, Mr. Stojkovic -- well, is it your testimony that you don't have any information concerning how or the manner in which tactical orders were issued to your unit during the period of time that you were in the Trnovo area?
A. I don't know these people, and I also don't know what kind of tactical orders were issued to my commander. I was not informed of these things. He probably did have orders, but those orders did not reach me.
Q. I would like to take you to the time that you were in Trnovo. During the period of time that you were there, what were your ordinary responsibilities? Were they still to tend to the issues concerning the food and other logistic matters?
A. I was only in charge of food there. I did nothing else nor did I have other responsibilities. I had the problem that I had to go to the front line for one day and that was punishment because I had been sunbathing for a day before that. I had to take pictures of one section that -- I received an order to that effect, and that's the only thing I did.
Q. You say -- well, what's been transcribed as "take pictures." Now do you mean by that using a video camera to record certain events?
A. Yes, I used a video camera.
Q. During the period of time that you were in Trnovo, can you tell us where the command in the field was set up for your unit?
A. What do you mean "where"? The command was outside Trnovo, and we all stayed in some weekend cottages, about a kilometre and a half in the 8340 direction of Foca. Those houses were on a hill. That's where we were billeted. There were weekend cottages, some of which were devastated, but others were in good condition, and that's where we found accommodation and lived there, basically.
Q. When you say "we," do you mean the entire unit or just parts or some of the unit?
A. The entire unit; that is, all of us who were there. But we weren't all in those weekend cottages at the same time. Half of us were at the front line and the other half were resting.
Q. You mentioned that you were called upon at a certain point to use a video recorder and to record the events, or some events, that occurred while you were in Trnovo. Can you tell us how that came about?
A. Here's how it happened: Dusko Kosanovic had a camera before me, and he accompanied the unit and all he did was record. But then he had some psychological problems. He was returned to Djeletovci, probably couldn't bear everything that was happening there, and the camera stayed behind, whereas he went to Djeletovci. When he left, the commander gave me the camera, and when there is a convenient moment or when I had leisure time, that I should go and take footage, and that's what I did.
Q. So when did the commander tell you to take footage in your leisure time? Was that soon after you arrived, some days after?
A. Well, I can't remember when exactly it was and all the details, but once Kosanovic left, I took over the camera. When I had free time I could go and use it. I only had to report that -- what I was up to.
THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last part 8341 of his answer.
Q. If you could just repeat the last part of your answer. I think the interpreters were not able to catch what you said.
A. I wanted to say that in my free time I could use the camera but I had to report to the commander and tell him where I wanted to go and what I wanted to record. I couldn't just go off on my own without telling anybody anything. I mean when I took footage of irrelevant things.
Q. What kind of footage did you take while the camera was in your possession?
A. I took footage at the front line. I took footage of fighters, the enemy forces, where their positions were. I can't remember everything because it was long ago. I'd have to look at all the footage and I don't have it. That would remind me of all the things that I recorded.
Q. When you received the assignment, if it was an assignment, to use the camera, was -- were you given any specific directions on what types of things to film, when to film, or how to film?
A. No, I didn't receive any instructions, nor was I issued the camera.
Q. Do you know somebody by the name of Djuro Opacic?
Q. Can you tell us about him?
A. What do you mean? I know that he was a driver.
Q. Did he show you how to operate the camera? 8342
A. Oh, I misunderstood. You mean -- you probably mean Djuro Opacic, also known as Coke.
Q. All right. Did Coke teach you how to use the camera, or show you how to use the camera?
Q. I take it that was before you went out, using it to film things in the area of Trnovo, where you were deployed.
A. No, not before. Until that time, I did not use that camera. It was issued to Dusko Kosanovic and he filmed things where he went. It wasn't me.
Q. Understood. And when you got the camera, did Coke show you how to use it?
Q. Do you remember anything in particular about the camera, such as what type of camera it was or what type of film or media it used to record?
A. The media was video casettes, the regular kind. And it was a Panasonic M6 or M7. One of the two, I am not sure which.
Q. Was among the things that you filmed during the period of time that you had the camera the execution of six Bosniaks in and around the area of Trnovo in July of 1995?
Q. And were you asked or ordered specifically to film this execution?
A. Yes, I was ordered. 8343
Q. Who ordered you to?
A. The commander, Slobodan Medic, personally ordered me to do that.
Q. Did you record this execution, Mr. Stojkovic?
Q. Can you tell us what you knew about the men who were executed and that you recorded.
A. I knew nothing about them. On that morning they woke me up and I was ordered to go and record. While we were going there, to the site where they would be executed, I learned that they were from Srebrenica. Whether they really were, I don't know, but that's what I heard.
Q. Did you, Mr. Stojkovic, participate in questioning these men about where they came from?
A. I didn't participate, but I didn't know where they were from, and I wanted to ask Pero Petrovic [as interpreted] or whoever, I don't know, about them so that we should know where they were from, how old they were, and so on, but I was unsuccessful. That was not recorded.
Q. You are recorded in the transcript as having said or having mentioned a Pero Petrovic. Did you mean a Pera Petrasevic?
A. Pera Petrasevic, yes, that's who I said.
Q. All right. I want to show you 65 ter 7003 again.
MR. VANDERPUYE: We need to go to page 29 in English and page 28 in the B/C/S.
Q. As was the case before, this refers to the judgement which recounts the defence of Pera Petrasevic. You can see your name in the, should be the second paragraph on the B/C/S page, I think. 8344
A. I can see it.
Q. At the end of the paragraph in the English, close to the end. It reads:
"In the meantime, Slobodan Stojkovic kept on insisting that the detainees should be talked to in order for them to find out who they were and where they were from, and for that reason he squatted down and talked to them, and that was when the accused -" Pera Petrasevic - "found out for the first time that they were from Srebrenica, that the oldest was born in 1959 and the youngest in 1979."
Does that accord with your recollection, Mr. Stojkovic, of your conduct with respect to these six Bosniak men?
A. Well, as far as I see, this is Pera Petrasevic's statement that he gave at the trial, but I couldn't squat down beside them because if I had done so, I wouldn't have been able to film. So I was in no position to approach them and ask them questions.
Q. And when did you learn that these men were from Srebrenica, and under what circumstances?
A. When we left the cottage houses for the execution site, as I didn't know where they were from, I asked myself who they were or where they were from and what is going on, and the driver was Medic. And I was sitting next to him, and I asked him who these people were, and he said they were from Srebrenica. I said that's impossible. I know that Srebrenica was almost 200 kilometres away. How could they be here? That's what went through my head.
When we arrived at the site, it occurred to me that we could ask 8345 the people themselves who they were and where they were from, but there was no opportunity to ask them that. I thought that they were bragging when they were saying that they were from Srebrenica and I didn't believe that.
Q. And what have you learned since then, Mr. Stojkovic?
A. What exactly do you mean? I don't know.
Q. Did you learn subsequently that these men were, in fact, from Srebrenica, from either members of your unit or from other sources?
A. No, I didn't learn where they were from until the trial before the special court in Belgrade, because the execution was very short and nobody subsequently asked questions, who they were, where they were from, and so on. Nobody cared. Other problems arose and things remained as they were.
Q. Did you hear that these men were brought to the area of Trnovo by a bus?
A. No, I don't know that.
Q. No, you didn't hear that, or no, you don't know that?
A. I didn't hear and I don't know either.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Can I have, please, in e-court, P1397. We will have to go to about page 18, I think, in the English, and it should be page 27 in the B/C/S.
Q. What I am showing you, sir, is a statement that you gave to Belgrade District Court Investigating Judge by the name of Milan Dilparic on 15 June, 2005. Do you remember giving a statement to that investigating judge? 8346
A. I remember I did. I don't know exactly what I said, but basically it was what you asked me about today.
Q. All right. And what I am referring you to in particular is, and maybe this will refresh your recollection, in the middle of the page in English you can see the judge asks you:
"Did you hearing anything about it later, about how they came to your unit?" meaning the men that were executed.
And your answer was: "I only heard that they were brought by truck. Well, now, how, what, where from ..."
And he asks you: "Did you hear who drove them?"
And you said: "I cannot say that since I don't know that."
Does that refresh your recollection as to what you heard about how these individuals were brought from Srebrenica to Trnovo?
A. Well, it does. It does actually reflect what I said then. And I believe that my answer was almost identical here; in other words, that I do not know how they arrived there, if I understood your question correctly.
Q. Well, who did you receive information from that they were brought there by truck?
A. I don't really know. As I sit here I can't recall who it was who told me. It was probably being rumored that that's how they had been brought, but I really don't know the details. 8347
Q. I want to take you to page 23 of this same statement. And it should be page 35, hopefully, in the B/C/S. And you will see there the investigating judge asks you the following question, which is: "We will make conclusions. Tell me, since you were present, you're still saying that you were far from the place while the six of them were being interrogated on the way down. Did those people say where they were from, who they were, anything about that?" And your answer was:
"I received information that they were from Srebrenica. Now, whether the information is true or not, I can't ..." I presume you were about to say you can't say.
Now, what I would like to ask you about in particular, and maybe this has refreshed your recollection, is what is the information that you received about them being from Srebrenica?
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I would appreciate it if we could be pointed to the page and line number, and also if the witness can be referred to the section, because as it is now, I am unable to follow this, and perhaps the witness will also find it easier to answer the question if he is shown the exact portion. Thank you.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Mr. Vanderpuye, is that the right page in B/C/S?
MR. VANDERPUYE: I am going to double-check it. It should be page 35 in the B/C/S. And as you can see, it's hard for me to read it, 8348 it's in Cyrillic.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: At the moment we are on page 34.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Well, then it should be page 35 in the B/C/S. The document page 35, e-court page 36, I understand, but you should see, on the bottom of the screen, 35.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have that on the screen, and I hope it's the right one.
MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. We will try again.
Q. Can you see the part of the - and you will let me know, Mr. Stojkovic - do you see the part where the investigative judge says, "We will make conclusions"?
Can you find that on this page? Maybe General Tolimir can help us out here, too.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye. That part does not appear on the B/C/S that we have on the screen now. Neither I nor my legal assistant were able to find it, and the witness is unable to do so as well.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Then let's try the previous page, 34. It's missing a page, then.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: It should be now the right page, if we are not mistaken. No, we have seen that already.
THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: It is in the last paragraph on page 34 in B/C/S.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, it seems to be that the last answer and the question on the bottom of the B/C/S page seem to be the same as 8349 those when the witness said:
"I don't remember any way he came, and as far as I remember and as much ..." and so on.
Is that the relevant part?
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The last paragraph on page 34 mentions the conclusions that the investigating judge would draw and then what -- how far that was, how far the witness was. So perhaps it follows on, on the next page. Perhaps the witness can be shown that portion, too, and then we can see if it's there.
THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The paragraph before last seems to be the one starting with "I can't remember ..."
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. I think we have it now clear on the screen.
MR. VANDERPUYE: And now we have the wrong page for sure. It's the following page, and it follows the paragraph where the witness says, "I don't remember ..." Whatever the next page may be.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: I'm sorry, that paragraph is on the screen, and now we have the next part that should be, "I received information."
MR. VANDERPUYE: It should be.
Q. Can you see here where the investigating judge says: "We will make conclusions"?
JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, it is on the previous page in B/C/S. It's the last paragraph on the previous page, for sure.
MR. VANDERPUYE: All right.
Q. Do you see that, Mr. Stojkovic? 8350
A. Yes, I can see that. Yes.
Q. And you can see the question that he asks you, which is: "Tell me, since you were present --" and maybe General Tolimir can tell me if the translation is accurate too -- "you were still saying that you were far from the place while the six of them were being interrogated on the way down. Did those people say where they were from, who they were, anything about that?"
Do you see that on the page in front of you, Mr. Stojkovic?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And can we identify, for the record, whether it's the second to last or the last paragraph on this page.
A. It's the last paragraph.
Q. Can we go to the next page, please, so that we can look at your answer. Do you see your answer on the top of the next page, Mr. Stojkovic?
Q. And is your answer: "I received information that they were from Srebrenica. Now, whether the information is true or not, I can't ..." And it discontinues at that point.
Q. Do you recall giving that answer to that question by the Investigating Judge Dilparic on 15 June 2002?
Q. And was your answer in reference to the six Bosnian men that you 8351 filmed being executed in the area of Trnovo in July 1995?
Q. And what I want to ask you is, the information that you say that you received about these men, what was that information and where did that information come from?
A. That is information that I learned on the way to the execution site, and I heard them -- I heard it from Branislav Medic, but as I already said here, I did not really believe that they were from Srebrenica and I didn't because he had said that they were from Srebrenica, and that is why I insisted, once we got off the truck, while I was trying to replace the battery, to have someone ask them where they were from so we could establish that. And up to this day, I really don't know whether they were or weren't from Srebrenica.
Q. Did anyone ask them where they were from?
A. Well, I don't know that. They were supposed to ask them, but then I think they changed their mind. Why? That also I don't know, but I seem to recall that they weren't asked where they were from.
Q. And the information you had concerning their transportation there by truck, and I say "truck" in particular because that's what you mention in your statement, where did you get that information from and when did you get it?
A. I've just told you now that was while we were on the way, driving there. I think it was 100 -- a TAM-110 or -150 truck, so on the way to the execution site, which was of some 4 to 5 kilometres, that's when I heard it. Now, when I got there, I asked Branko where these men were 8352 from and he said they were from Srebrenica, and I had them ask them, and then I didn't believe them that they were from Srebrenica when they said so because I thought that maybe they were just trying to show off, because how could they get all the way from Srebrenica to this particular place?
Q. I would like to show you P1372. And we will need to go to paragraph 105. I have it as page 19 in the English. And if it's any help, that's very near the end of the document altogether, so it should be a page or two back, maybe two pages back in the B/C/S, from the last page. I understand it's page 25 in the B/C/S, and we've got it. Okay. In this paragraph, the witness mentions:
"A few days after the fall of the enclave, I was at Treskavica." First of all, can you tell us where Treskavica is, Mr. Stojkovic?
A. Treskavica is near Trnovo.
Q. Would that be near the area where your unit had set up, in that area in Trnovo?
Q. Further on, we see that the witness says: "When I went to see him, meaning Boca, I saw a bus full of civilians arrive, escorted by the CSB. These were civilians from Srebrenica. The CSB people called Boca out and removed the civilians from the bus. Boca asked what was going on, and he was told that these civilians were 'our share.' The CSB man explained to them that they were distributing civilians for killing in different locations because they didn't want too many killed in one place." 8353 Do you see that written in the statement in front of you?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Did you have any of this information?
A. Well, no. And the gentleman who said this, he probably worked for one of those institutions and that's why he would have that information. He was probably the commander's right hand, the man just next to him.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, it would be helpful if you could state for the record which statement or from whom this statement was taken.
MR. VANDERPUYE: I will, Mr. President. And I was just going to ask him one other question and then I plan to do that.
Q. Beneath this section that I have just read to you, it says that the CSB man -- oh, I have read that part, I'm sorry. "Boca had these people locked up. He told six men, including Miodrag Momic and Slobodan Stojkovic, aka Bugar --"
First of all, can you tell me, do you go by the name or have you gone by the name "Bugar"?
Q. He told six men, including Momic and Stojkovic, to get shovels so that it would appear to the Muslims that they were being asked to do some work.
Do you have any -- does this comport with your recollection of the events?
A. No, this is a fabrication. 8354
Q. All right. Do you know somebody by the name of Goran Stoparic?
Q. How do you know him?
A. Well, I know him from the unit. I was his superior.
Q. Was he a member of the unit in 1995, July?
Q. Was he assigned with your unit to the area of Trnovo in July 1995?
Q. Have you discussed the events of what you recorded in Trnovo with Mr. Stoparic prior to coming here to testify today, in any respect?
A. No. I've lost touch with him.
Q. All right. What I've shown you, therefore, is a statement of his from November of 2003.
A. I haven't seen it before.
Q. All right. I would like to show you -- I take it, then, that you deny that you had any contact or information about these Srebrenica men or taking up shovels or anything that he's mentioned in his statement, at least in that paragraph, that concerns you. You deny that, right?
A. Well, obviously, since I didn't do these things. This man provided a statement who wasn't even there on the spot, so how could he have known? He just was not in a position to see anything like that or to know so much about it. However, if he was employed by some sort of security service of Serbia, that's possible. I don't know.
Q. When you say "security service of Serbia," what do you mean? 8355
A. Well, I don't have any specific opinion. It's just that if this man has this kind of information and he was just a simple soldier, how would he have known, unless he had some sort of position? And I could not really observe that when I knew him at the time, that he did have any of the authorities that would go with it. I think this is something quite different.
Q. Well, you do see in the paragraph 105 that I've read some of, that he says that Bugar took a camera and filmed the people, meaning the people that were shot, that these Muslim civilians were lined up and shot in groups. And he says, "I saw the video of these people being killed." You see that, right?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And it is accurate that you were the person that filmed these people being shot, isn't it?
Q. And it is true that they were lined up, as you can see in the video footage. Does that comport with your recollection?
A. What do you mean they were lined up? I am not sure I understood what you said.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would appreciate Mr. Vanderpuye's being more precise in his question. He said that people were killed in groups, that they had gotten off buses, that this was at Treskavica, and now he's talking about the murders in Trnovo. So let's just clear up 8356 what they are talking about -- or what he's talking about, because Treskavica is a mountaintop. Because this way it appears as if the witness is avoiding and not willing to answer the questions truthfully.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, Mr. Vanderpuye is quoting from a statement of another person, of Mr. Goran Stoparic, obviously, and I don't see any mistake by putting some parts of these statements, of these sentences, to the witness.
Please carry on, Mr. Vanderpuye.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
Q. You said you had a question about --
A. May I add something?
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, please.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was unclear to me, too, where it says there, you know, getting off the bus, then he took out his video camera and then filmed it, which would appear to be suggest that there was a whole busload of people and that they were all killed, but that was not the case. We know that there were six people, and this was a TAM-110 or -150 truck that these people were taken in there. I don't know where this information came from and I don't know how this person could have known what was happening some 4 kilometres further beyond that place. Perhaps he is clairvoyant or something, I don't know. In any case, this does not comport with what I filmed.
Q. It does not comport with what you filmed; is that right? I just want to make sure the record is accurate in that sense. 8357
Q. Well, all right. Well, we will take a look at some of what you filmed.
MR. VANDERPUYE: If we could have P12 -- I'm sorry, just a moment. P102 --
JUDGE FLUEGGE: I don't want to disturb your line of questions, but perhaps you can clarify the relation between the different locations mentioned in paragraph 105.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Meaning Treskavica.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed.
Q. Can you tell us where Treskavica is relative to where it was that these executions that you filmed took place? How far away is it?
A. Do you mean where our unit was in relation to the execution site? Is that what you're asking?
Q. More specifically, since there is a reference to Treskavica, can you tell us, first of all, of what significance is that location to your unit?
A. Well, I don't know. I am confused again. I haven't understood your question. Do you mean how far was the execution from the front line or how far our unit was or -- I really don't know what you want me to answer, what question you want me to answer.
Q. Okay. Maybe I can frame it this way: Where Mr. Stoparic says, "I was at Treskavica," do you know where that is?
A. Yes. 8358
Q. And does Treskavica have some relationship to where your unit was either billeted or headquartered during the period of time it was in Trnovo or in the Trnovo area?
A. Well, clearly the command and the place where we were billeted and the front line, that was some 4 to 5 kilometres off in the -- on the mountaintop, up the hill, and the line, the front line, was some 4 to 5 kilometres. We were there, our commander was there; that's how I remember it, approximately.
Q. "There" meaning at Treskavica?
Q. And so the reference here by Mr. Stoparic to, "I was at Treskavica" means the area where the command was, of the unit. Is that a fair assumption?
A. Well, no, that's not a fair assumption. The command was in Trnovo, some one and a half kilometres away from Trnovo, where the cottage, the summer cottage was. As for the front line and the unit, they were in the hills -- up the hills some 4 to 5 kilometres away.
Q. How far was Treskavica, then, from the command of the unit in Trnovo?
A. Well, I have just told you, 4 to 5 kilometres.
Q. And what's there? Why would he be there, if you know?
A. I am not sure I understand your question.
Q. As a member of the unit, why would a member of your unit be in Treskavica when the command and where everybody else is billeted is someplace else? If you know. 8359
A. Well, that's how we operated. The command cannot be on the front line. The command staff were on the front line, but the command itself was not there. It was in a different location. They could not be on the front line.
Q. And the front line was at Treskavica?
A. Yes, clearly.
MR. VANDERPUYE: I hope that answers the Chamber's question.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: If you leave this document now, I just would like to know if the documents P1397 and P1372, they are already in evidence or are they MFI'd?
MR. VANDERPUYE: I will check that for you now, Mr. President. I think they are in evidence, though. I am informed that they are in evidence, Mr. President.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: I was told that they are in evidence already. There is no need for tendering them.
MR. VANDERPUYE: That's right, Mr. President.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: And what about the document 65 ter 7003, the judgement you have used?
MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President. I suppose I would tender that document. It's quite lengthy. I don't know if my -- I don't know if Mr. Gajic takes a position with respect to it, but I would tender it.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: And I take it it is not on the 65 ter exhibit list yet?
MR. VANDERPUYE: It's not on the 65 ter list of exhibits yet, that's correct, Mr. President. 8360
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic.
MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence agrees for the entire judgement to be admitted as an exhibit so that not only the parts used with this witness are admitted. It contains a lot of information about the execution at Trnovo and much as been reliably established about the unit in question, and we not only do not object but fully support the tendering of this document.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, what is your position?
MR. VANDERPUYE: If there is no objection to it, yes, I would tender it, Mr. President.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received into evidence and added to the 65 ter exhibit list.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.
THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P01437, Your Honours.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please carry on, Mr. Vanderpuye.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. Just before we do, we do have another witness waiting, and I know that I am a little bit over my time. My intention is to show the videotape, or some of the videotape footage. I don't know whether or not General Tolimir has cross-examination for this witness, or how extensive it is, but if perhaps Mr. Gajic could tell me, we will know whether or not, with the Court's leave, we should send the next witness home or not. I think it will take me a little while to get through the videotape and a few questions after, and he -- the witness who is waiting is an elderly man. And if we had some information, it would be helpful. 8361
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir or Mr. Gajic, could you give an indication?
MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence will certainly have questions for this witness. How extensive the cross-examination will be, I cannot say because this is a viva voce witness and the Prosecutor still has some questions pending. We cannot assess a duration of our cross-examination yet. In one of our submissions to the Trial Chamber, we gave a rough estimate but certainly the time we will need depends also on what the Prosecutor still wants to do.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: In that case, this is not very probable that the we will start with the next witness. He should be released for today and come back tomorrow.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I would like to show the witness P1024, please. I think we can start, we can play some of it right now.
Q. Do you recognise what you see in this video footage, Mr. Stojkovic?
Q. Tell the Trial Chamber what it is.
A. What do you mean what it is? There are people on the truck who had been taken, I don't know from where, but they were put on a truck and 8362 they are getting ready to leave for the execution site, and Pera Petrasevic is inside. At this moment he is kicking one of them.
Q. And are you the one filming this particular segment of the video footage?
Q. And is this the footage that you shot, or some of the footage that you shot, having been ordered to do so by Boca, Slobodan Medic?
Q. And before you shot this video footage, is it fair to say that you knew that these men were destined to be executed by members of your unit?
A. I cannot state that with certainty. We did assume that, but I couldn't know for certain that they would be shot. Until the execution started, I didn't believe that they would be executed.
Q. You mentioned you had a conversation with a Branislav Medic in the truck that brought them down there; is that right?
Q. What did he tell you about what was supposed to happen to the apparent cargo in that truck, meaning these men?
A. He said to me that they would execute them and that these people were from Srebrenica, but I couldn't believe that would really happen. That's why I later insisted to hear who they were and where they were from, and until the execution really began, I didn't believe that it would happen.
Q. But that's what he told you; isn't that right? 8363
Q. And what we see here is the footage showing the men inside the rear part of the truck?
Q. All right. And this is the TAM truck that you described earlier in your testimony, is it?
Q. And the person that we saw before, kicking one of these men in the head, you said was whom?
A. Pera Petrasevic.
Q. Just for the record, I want the record to reflect that we played for the witness through, looks like, 21 seconds in the video. I would like to show him another segment. Hopefully we will start at 1:55. Okay. Let's play this part, please.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. Can you stop for just a moment. We have stopped at 2 minutes, 16 seconds in the video.
Q. Now, here we can see the men being lined up on the ground. Is that right, Mr. Stojkovic?
Q. They have their hands behind their backs; is that right?
Q. About how far away from these men are you when you're filming this?
A. Ten to 15 metres, roughly. I don't remember precisely, but 8364 thereabouts. I may have been even further away. I don't know.
Q. Or closer. Is that fair to say?
A. Or closer, possibly. Yes.
Q. And at this point in the video --
MR. VANDERPUYE: If we could just continue. We will just play it through a couple more seconds.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Stop please.
Q. Do you recognise the individual in the -- and we're 2 minutes, 21 seconds in the video. Do you recognise the individual in what appears to be a red beret, camouflage vest, and black coveralls, or something like that?
Q. Who is that individual?
A. Slobodan Davidovic.
Q. And he's one of the individuals that you named earlier as part of the security -- I think you said it was the security force for Slobodan Medic; is that right?
Q. All right. We'll play it through just a little bit more.
MR. VANDERPUYE: We are at 2 minutes, 24 seconds now.
Q. And we can see here in the subtitle, it says: "Zekan, go quickly, turn the lorry around and bring it back, my battery's died." 8365 Who is saying that?
A. I am.
Q. And what are you referring to?
A. I'm referring to the battery.
Q. And the battery of the video camera, can I assume?
Q. And when did you realise that something had -- something had gone wrong with the battery of the video camera?
A. When there was the low battery signal.
Q. Okay. And who is Zekan that you refer to here?
A. That's Branislav Medic, the driver.
Q. And according to your recollection, did he in fact go back to get you a new battery, or another battery?
A. Yes. Yes, he did. He left and came back.
Q. The individuals that are in and around this area where the prisoners had been lined up, face down, on the side of the road, were they all members of your unit, that is, the Skorpions Unit, or were they members of other forces present?
A. I didn't understand. I apologise. Could you repeat the question?
Q. The individuals that were there, aside from the prisoners, in the area where they were laid down and lined up on their stomachs, were those individuals all members of your unit or were they from other units or forces in the area?
A. Only our unit was there. Nobody else but us. And I mean the 8366 Skorpions Unit. Nobody else was present.
Q. All right. I would like to show you P1437. That's the judgement again that I referred you to before.
MR. VANDERPUYE: And we are going to need to go to page -- yeah, let's try page 57 in the English and 46 in the B/C/S. I think we have the right pages in both. Great.
Q. What I want to refer you to, again, is what's written in the judgement about the defence of Branislav Medic, and I want to refer you to about the middle part of the paragraph in English, it will be the second paragraph, I think, in the B/C/S, and it should be around the middle of that too. In particular, what he says is:
"When they all together arrived at that place, he stopped the truck and the prisoners were unloaded. He opened the tailboard so that the prisoners could get out, and when the prisoners got out of the truck, someone told them to lie down on the ground. After that, one of the Army of Republika Srpska officers, of whom he thinks that he is a lieutenant-colonel, said that he does not like this at all, that something is not right, and that he has to go back to the command. During that time, Stojkovic filmed everything. Then one of those army officers and his driver get into the Pinzgauer and drive off and the accused stays in the truck. After a few minutes, Stojkovic tells him that he should go and fetch another camera battery because this one is empty and he can't film."
What I want to ask you about in particular is this apparent reference, or obvious reference, I should say, to what's written here, or 8367 translated here, is Army of Republika Srpska officers.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what Mr. Vanderpuye has read out I haven't seen at all. It wasn't on the screen, so probably the witness didn't see it or my legal advisor. Could we please be shown that, and only after that can the witness be asked about it. Thank you.
MR. VANDERPUYE: What I have read, so that you can maybe reference it, follows the numbers 300 to 400 that you can see in the B/C/S. It's about seven lines down from the second -- thank you. And if we go maybe two sentences beyond that, you will see the area where I read from.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Do you see that, Mr. Tolimir?
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I see where it says 300 to 400, but I don't see the section that Mr. Vanderpuye has read out.
MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. I will read it, then, from 300 to 400 and maybe you can follow along. It says:
"... which is approximately 300 to 400 metres away from the first line. He knew this place very well as he want there every day to bring food and ammo."
Then the sentence: "When they all together arrived at that place ..."
Do you see that?
Q. That's the beginning of that part that I just read. I will read it again: 8368 "When they all together arrived at that place, he stopped the truck, and the prisoners were unloaded. He hoped the tailboard so that the prisoners could get out, and when the prisoners got out of the truck, someone told them to lie down on the ground. After that, one of the Army of Republika Srpska officers, of whom he -" the witness - "thinks that he is a lieutenant-colonel, said that he does not like this at all, that something is not right, and he has to go back to the command. During that time Stojkovic filmed everything. Then one of those army officers and his driver get into the Pinzgauer and drive off and the accused stays with the truck. And after a few minutes, Stojkovic tells him that he should go and fetch another camera because this one is empty and he can't film."
JUDGE FLUEGGE: You left out the word "battery," fetch another camera battery.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I hope -- maybe Mr. Gajic can confirm that that's actually written in the B/C/S version of it and you were able to follow along.
I see Mr. Gajic is --
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, now it's correct. Thank you.
MR. VANDERPUYE: What I want to ask the witness is there is a specific reference here to an Army of Republika Srpska officer.
Q. Could you tell us about that? Do you know anything about it?
A. As I was there, I can say that this didn't happen. I don't know who gave this statement, but I suppose that it was Branislav Medic, the accused. That was his version of what he said, but that doesn't match 8369 the footage because we would have been able to see these persons, otherwise. There are no outside people -- outside persons present. I mean outside persons, I mean members of the VRS around the truck. And my eyesight was good at the time and it is still good today.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic.
MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I am not opposed to this line of questioning, but since parts of the defence of one of the accused in this trial are quoted, this should be the statement of the accused. Could Mr. Vanderpuye possibly explain to us the defence case because, given the nature of the defence case, it is clear why the person who gave this statement said what he said. I don't want to elaborate any further, but possibly Mr. Vanderpuye could enlighten us.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, first, I think that's an appropriate issue to explore on cross-examination, if General Tolimir chooses to do so. As I have done with the other questions I have put to this witness, I have asked him very simply whether or not what's recounted by a given witness or by the judge or any other circumstance comports with his recollection or understanding of the events that occurred. I am not suggesting to the witness whether one version is true or another version is not true, but this is a concrete fact which is mentioned in a judgement which concerns the presence or absence of VRS officers at the scene of an execution which is the subject of this indictment, so it's clearly relevant. What this witness knows about it as a person who was present there, obviously, and having filmed this execution, is a relevant question. He either knows or he doesn't know. 8370 He either thinks it's truthful or he doesn't think it's truthful. But I don't really see the point of my colleague's diatribe concerning the relevancy and propriety of putting questions concerning factual matters to a fact witness. And the source of the information? My good faith basis to put the question to the witness comes from a judgement which refers to that fact. Whether the judgement -- whether the Court makes that finding or not, the issue is it's a fact that is mentioned during a Court proceeding. It is perfectly appropriate to put that to the witness.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic.
MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I haven't put forward any objection with regard to any of the Prosecutor's questions.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please carry on, Mr. Vanderpuye. No, stop. Please don't carry on. We need the second break now. We will have our second break and resume quarter past 6.00.
--- Recess taken at 5.45 p.m.
--- On resuming at 6.18 p.m.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, please carry on.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I think we still had the video up.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: The last part of your examination was not dealing with the video but with the text you have quoted from.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, I recall that, Mr. President. I think I got an answer to my question.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: I don't think so. There was a discussion among 8371 the parties.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Thanks, Mr. President. Just bear with me for one moment.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic.
MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, perhaps I can be of assistance. The issue that was raised was raised after the witness already replied to the question. Following that, Mr. Vanderpuye did not put any further questions to the witness.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Assistance is always appreciated. Thank you, Mr. Gajic.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you, Mr. Gajic. Just so that we are all clear, my question had to do with this reference to an Army of Republika Srpska officer that is attributed to the defence of Branislav Medic in this April 2007 judgement.
Q. Your recollection is that all of the individuals that were at the, execution or execution site, were members of your unit. Is that correct, Mr. Stojkovic?
Q. And let me just follow up on that briefly, which is, we are talking specifically about the execution site when the camera was rolling. What about when the camera was not rolling? What about the period of time when you were not filming these events? Do you recall whether there were any officers from the Army of Republika Srpska at any point in time prior to the execution or thereafter, which is not captured 8372 on the video footage that you filmed?
A. As far as I know, when the camera was rolling or not there was no one from the VRS, and I know this by coincidence because there were some people at the command from the VRS. That's what Medic, Branislav said when -- in his defence case. So there was no mention by him that they were at the execution site. They were at the headquarters. But I don't know whether that was the case personally because I was not -- when I arrived there, there was no one at the headquarters from the VRS.
Q. All right.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Mindua has a question.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, a short question for you: How many vehicles were there at the site?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What do you mean; at the headquarters, the command, or at the execution site?
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] At the execution site, how many vehicles were there?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only one, as I have already mentioned. It was a TAM truck, either 110 or 150 model. So there was one single vehicle, our vehicle there, there was no other vehicles.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Now I have a follow-up question. If I recall correctly, you have stated that somebody went back from the crime site with the truck, and later you asked Mr. Medic to go back to the headquarters to get a new battery for your video camera. Did the truck first return which went back to the headquarters and then went back 8373 again? I really don't understand this. Could you clarify that, please.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can. There was only one truck there, and Branislav Medic was the driver. I asked him to go and get a battery for the video camera for me. There was no other vehicle. And you can also see it in the footage. There were no other vehicles.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. Mr. Vanderpuye.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I think we can --
Q. Let me ask you, this reference to Pinzgauer, can you tell us what that is?
A. That's a military vehicle that can hold some six people in the back and two people in front, but I did not see that vehicle at any point in time, either before or after or during the incident itself.
Q. All right. Is that to say that it wasn't there or that you just didn't see one?
A. Well, it wasn't there. We did not have that type of vehicle, and I can only assume that this was a statement of the accused Branislav Medic who said that there was a Pinzgauer there. It is possible that he saw it before I came there, but I cannot really claim that with certainty that there was that vehicle there. Other people claim that it wasn't. And I, myself, cannot say that it was when I didn't see it.
Q. All right. Now, we turn back to the video.
MR. VANDERPUYE: All right. I want to play it from a different point. Okay. We are at 3 minutes, 49 seconds in the video, and we can 8374 just play it through a little bit.
Q. Can you tell us first, Mr. Stojkovic, who are the individuals that we have just seen in the frames through -- we have stopped now at 3 minutes and 55 seconds?
A. The person we see now is Aleksandar Medic, and the other three were Pera Petrasevic, Davidovic, and Momic.
Q. And these are all members of your unit; is that correct?
Q. All right. We can continue playing it.
Q. Now, you see here a reference to one of the men asking somebody if they have fucked, if you excuse my language, but that's what's attributed to them. Do you recall that part of the footage?
Q. And who said that?
A. I think either Aleksandar Medic or Davidovic. I don't know exactly who it was who put the question, I think it was Davidovic, and that Aleksandar Medic commented in response.
Q. And do you know why -- well, first of all, whom this soldier was talking to?
A. He was actually talking to one of the prisoners who are lying down on the floor, but basically he asked him whether he had had any love 8375 relationship, and he said that he didn't, and that's basically what they were commenting on.
MR. VANDERPUYE: If we could play through a little bit.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Okay. We can stop there.
Q. Now, we just heard a sound. Hopefully you heard it too. Could you tell us what that was?
A. Well, I don't know. Perhaps if we could replay it then I could pay attention to such matters. Maybe there was -- maybe a shot was fired. I think there was a shot fired while there was this conversation going on, but I couldn't hear it very well.
Q. Do you have a recollection of a shot being fired - let my put it to you that way - during this part of the footage that you were filming?
A. Well, could you replay it? Maybe there was a shell fired, I don't know, but I know that while earlier on, as they were talking, this Momic person, he pulled out his rifle and he fired into the air, but maybe there was also a shell being fired. I don't know. But it's possible.
Q. Well, this conversation that we saw part of in the subtitles of this footage where you recall that it had something to do with whether or not one of the prisoners had had some love, I think you said, it was part of your testimony, was it not, in Belgrade, and in particular I will refer you to your 23rd February 2006 testimony. Do you remember having testified about that?
A. Yes. 8376
Q. Do you recall being asked this question and giving these answers, I should say, by the Presiding Judge in those proceedings? Now, I can refer you to page 73 and 74 in the English. I am not sure -- it's 65 ter 7005, but for the purposes, it should be page 38 in the B/C/S, but I will just read it to you and ask you if it refreshes your recollection. If you need to see it, then I will show it to you. It reads as follows. You were asked:
"What did he ask them? So it doesn't matter. We hear all sorts of things here. You must tell us what you heard regardless of what it is and what words were used."
That's the judge. Your answer: "I am really embarrassed."
"Q. There is no need to be embarrassed. We are used to everything here. Nothing is embarrassing here."
"A. Well, as far as I -- last time, as far as I understood what he was asking, and you can also hear that in the recording, he is asking him, the last one on the right --"
"Q. The one next to you, who was the first one next to you?" "A. He asked the one next to me. That's why you can hear what I asked him."
"What did he ask him?" "He asked: 'Did you fuck?'"
"Q. All right." "A. And he said no, and Aca told him, 'And you won't either,' something like that, but I am not sure if I phrased it exactly, but it 8377 was something to that effect."
Do you recall giving that testimony as concerns what we just saw here in the video footage?
A. Yes, I do remember making such a statement. And I also attended a new trial when Aleksandar Medic was there, and when we listened to the video, I heard it and I believe that's what I said exactly, that's what I remember, and I am not trying to hide anything now but not everything was written down as I said then.
Now, the new trial was actually a retrial because it was referred back by the Appeals Chamber to the initial -- to the original Trial Chamber and this is what I recall that was said, and I recall that something to the effect of, "Well, if you haven't fucked around anymore anyway," although, in retrospect, I am not sure that that's what I said, but it is possible. And obviously I couldn't remember, ten years later, every single word, and in that trial I had not seen the video footage before I was asked that question and I answered it.
Q. Well, the gist of my question is, when you say that Aca told him, "And you won't either," did you understand that to mean that that individual was going to be executed and he would never have that chance?
A. Well, I just explained that the context was not exactly as it was just presented here. That was not what was said. So there was a completely different understanding of it, however it would probably make sense that it went on where he would have said that, well, if you haven't, then you won't have a chance to do it again, and then it would be a logical extension of that that he won't because he would be shot. 8378 But as I said, when I went back for that retrial we were trying to determine what was said exactly and that's what I said because that is what I remembered, that is how I remembered it. But when I testified the first time before the Special Chamber in Belgrade, it was the case that I had not seen the video footage beforehand, and I did not have it in my own possession, and I didn't really -- couldn't really recollect everything that was said.
Q. All right. It is your testimony, though, that at this point when these prisoners were lined up face down on the side of the road, that you still didn't believe that they were going to be executed; is that right?
A. Well, I could not understand it to mean that he would kill them, because I didn't believe what they were saying, that there would be an execution, because that's how it usually happened. And I thought that there would be an exchange. Because all of this was happening in the context of stories about either an exchange or execution, but as far as I could see now it was really an execution. But up until the last moment, I didn't know, and I didn't believe that they would execute them.
Q. All right.
MR. VANDERPUYE: If we can go to the next segment we are going to play.
Q. Just before we play that, let me ask you, when you first saw these prisoners in the back of the truck, it was clear to you that they had been beaten up; isn't that true?
Q. And that would be normal, from your point of view, with respect 8379 to an exchange to be carried out with these prisoners. Is that what you're telling us?
A. Well, I really don't know, as I sit here, whether it was normal or not, or it would be normal or not.
Q. Let's take a look at what we have here. We're at 16 minutes, 8 seconds, in the video footage.
MR. VANDERPUYE: I think we can stop now.
Q. Tell us what we see here. What you are filming?
A. Well, here I was filming the part where the execution had already been carried out and four others were left to pull the bodies over to the summer cottages.
Q. All right. Now, I haven't shown you the entirety of this video footage, but did you shoot more footage than what I have shown you here in court?
A. You mean on this occasion?
Q. Yes, on this occasion, with respect to the executions that were carried out against these Muslim men from Srebrenica.
A. Yes, there is more footage than this.
Q. And of the video footage that I've shown you now, in court, is there anything in the video footage that you did not record?
A. No. Everything that you showed, I recorded myself.
Q. And is it accurate to your recollection of the events that actually transpired on the day that you were filming these killings?
A. Yes. 8380
Q. Now, I want to ask you, since you've indicated that you didn't believe that these men were to be executed, I just want to ask you one other question.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: We should indicate that you stopped the video at 16 minutes, 18 seconds -- 18.4 seconds.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you very much, Mr. President. I appreciate that.
That's P1437. I need page 27 in the English and page 27 in the B/C/S. Again, we are back to the April 2007 judgement. And this is what's in the judgement as concerns Pera Petrasevic, his defence.
Q. And you will tell me if you can find this in the B/C/S because I am not sure which paragraph it is, but it reads:
"That morning (before they would head out to perform the task) --"
It looks like it's -- that's right, the first paragraph, the first complete paragraph on that page.
"-- someone woke him up and hold him 'Come down, aka Boca needs you.'"
That would be Slobodan Medic, wouldn't it?
Q. "He got up, looked down the staircase and saw Slobodan Medic who addressed him with the words, 'Come down, I have a task for you all.' The accused understood - that would be Petrasevic - that there was a task for the members of the security, which meant him, Milorad Momic, Aleksandar Medic, and Slobodan Davidovic. I came down and saw some ten 8381 to 15 people standing around a truck. Among them, he remembers that Slobodan Stojkovic was standing at the corner of the weekend house." First, do you remember standing at the corner of the weekend house at any point in time prior to the executions that we've seen in the video footage? Do you recall that, Mr. Stojkovic?
A. Yes, I do, but it doesn't match. I arrived last. They had already gotten off and gotten ready and they were only waiting for me. But apart from that, the context is all right, is accurate.
Q. Further to what I have just read, Petrasevic, at least what appears to be attributed to him, says he:
"... came down, saw ten to 15 people standing around the truck. Among them he remembers Slobodan Stojkovic was standing at the corner of the weekend house," as I've just read.
"Then Slobodan Medic addressed the accused Petrasevic with the words, 'Go and kill these people.' At that moment nobody else was in his vicinity, but he is certain that Slobodan Stojkovic could also hear these words."
Do you have a recollection of that order being issued by Boca with regard to these men that you filmed being executed in or around Trnovo in the video footage?
A. Yes, I remember.
Q. After you filmed this video footage, could you tell us what you did with it.
A. When I returned to Djeletovci, I asked the commander what I should do with that video cassette, and the commander ordered me to give 8382 it to Kosanovic - what's his name again? - we called him Kosa, I don't remember his first name now. And I gave it to him, the video cassette, and that's it.
Q. When you say "that's it," what do you mean? Do you know what happened to the video cassette after you gave it to him?
A. I later heard that the -- that several copies were made and that they distributed it among themselves. Some of them had it. And Dusko Kosanovic - I remember his name now, Dusko - he kept a copy, and I also heard that a copy was available for rent at the video store at Sid. I don't know if that's true. But allegedly whoever wanted could go there and rent the cassette and see the footage.
Q. All right. Thank you, Mr. Stojkovic. I have no further questions for you.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President, for indulging. I know that I am over my limit.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Indeed. At this point in time I would like to put three questions to the witness just to clarify some matters. On page 34 of today's transcript, line 9, you said:
"Dusko Kosanovic had the camera before me and he accompanied the unit and all he did was record, but then he had some psychological problems. He was returned to Djeletovci, probably couldn't bear everything that was happening there, and the camera stayed behind whereas he went to Djeletovci."
Can you tell us something about the psychological problems you were referring to of this man? 8383
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know exactly what he experienced, but I heard from other people that he was scared of the events there because we were shelled heavily. But I wasn't in contact with him, I heard it from others. Anyway, he was sent back and his statement was that he fell ill. I don't know. It may be true. At any rate, he was sent back to Djeletovci, or, rather, he went home. He wasn't a member of the Skorpions. He only accompanied us when video recordings were to be made. Only when we were out in the field, then he would come with us and film, as far as I know.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Was he at any point in time present at the execution site of these six men?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, he wasn't. He can't have been. He was at home.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: What do you mean when you said: "Probably he couldn't bear everything that was happening there"?
What, in your understanding, was the problem he was suffering from? "What was happening there," what do you mean by that?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to say that probably the man was scared of getting killed. He couldn't bear it, because many people got killed and he was probably unable to stand it. That's my conclusion. Maybe I am wrong. Maybe he really fell ill, but I do believe that my assumption is correct.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. Another question: You several times today stated that you didn't believe that these six men were from Srebrenica, although you were told they came from there. Why didn't you 8384 believe that?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't believe it because it was impossible. As far as I know, Srebrenica was over 200 kilometres away from the place where we were and I didn't understand how they could possibly have come there. They would have needed two or three days to reach us, and that's why I didn't think it possible for them to be able to come to the place where we were.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: And why did you want to know and to ask them if they are really from Srebrenica?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Exactly because I didn't believe that they were from Srebrenica. I wanted to find out where they were from.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: What would be the difference if these men were from Srebrenica or from any other place, the difference for you in the understanding of the event you were involved in?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, from today's vantage point, it would have made a difference, but at the time I was just curious to know where they were from. I didn't know then what was happening in Srebrenica. However, today, I know more about the events around Srebrenica. I don't know exactly what happened, but generally speaking, I do know now.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: That was not precisely what I was asking you. I would like to know what was your understanding at that time when you wanted to find out if they were really from Srebrenica. Was it at that point in time your understanding that there was difference -- would be a 8385 difference if they would be from another location?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know how to answer that question. I really don't know. I was just curious to know where they were from. It didn't make a difference to me whether they were from Srebrenica or another place, Sarajevo or any other place, it meant nothing to me at the time. I didn't know what was happening at Srebrenica, why it was so topical; I didn't know anything at the time.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: And my third question is related to a part of the video we have seen. You were asked by Mr. Vanderpuye about the man with the name Zekan, and you said that's Branislav Medic. And --
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- you asked him to go back and to bring you a new battery because your battery was empty; is that correct?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Was he superior to you or was he your subordinate? What was your relation?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't his superior and he wasn't my superior, either. We were both equal soldiers, but I simply had to tell someone that my battery had died and that another had to be brought. There was no superior of mine present, nor was I superior to anybody else; I couldn't give anybody orders. I understood that Pera Petrasevic was superior to everybody else there. That's what I understood.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: How long did you wait for the return of the truck?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ten to 15 minutes, maybe. I can't 8386 remember exactly, but thereabouts. The distance is 4 kilometres, so it would have certainly taken ten to 15 minutes.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: What happened in that time?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nothing. The camera was in use at the time, save [Realtime transcript read in error "say"] for 4 to 5 minutes, but nothing much happened. Only people talked and whatever was said was recorded. Nothing much happened. We only waited for the battery.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sorry. I didn't understand that. You said the camera was in use all the time. I was only referring to the time when you waited for the return of the truck with the new battery. Was the camera in use at that time?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've just said that it wasn't in use all the time. Four or five minutes it was not in use, but it wasn't really in operation the entire time. When the truck returned, then it was put back to use.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: And what was the reason that you waited for the return of the truck? And I mean the whole group, why did they wait and started the execution after the return of the truck and not earlier?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because it couldn't be filmed, but everybody knew that it must be filmed. They knew of the commander's orders to film it. That's why we waited and that's why everything went the way it went.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, you were on your feet.
MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, I was, Mr. President, and only because a 8387 clarification or correction should be made to the transcript. I have as page 79, line 12, which is attributed to the witness as having said: "The camera was in use all the time," and then it reads, "Say for 45 minutes," and I think it should read "save for four to five minutes," which I think ultimately was corrected by the witness further down.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Is that a correct understanding?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I said that it may have been out of use for four minutes or five, to the best of my recollection.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much for that clarification. Mr. Tolimir, it was not possible to commence your
cross-examination today because of my questions I had to put to the witness. It is now 7.00, we have to adjourn for the day, and are you in the position to commence your cross-examination tomorrow? Mr. Tolimir.
THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. President, Mr. Vanderpuye asked whether we would finish. I don't know what the commitments of this witness are or what the plan is. Since you have asked many questions and so has he, it will suffice for my legal advisor to read the conclusions of the Belgrade judgement which will provide many answers to these questions, and they spent two years investigating this. And it is only one paragraph. If you allow, we can do it now and then we can release the witness. Thank you.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: That is the only question you want to put? But there will be probably or possibly re-examination.
Mr. Vanderpuye, do you know anything about the preparations for 8388 the return of the witness?
MR. VANDERPUYE: No, Mr. President. I am afraid I don't.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: In my view it is better to adjourn for the day to give you the possibility to prepare your cross-examination during the break, and then we will resume tomorrow. And I heard from Judges that there are additional questions. I think we shouldn't hurry it because we are over time already.
MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, what Mr. Tolimir wanted is in evidence already, but we wanted to read it out for the sake of the record, but at present we have no questions for the witness. We only wanted to read out one paragraph from the judgement that is already in evidence. That would not be a question, nor would the witness be in a position to reply to that.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.
MR. VANDERPUYE: The witness should be available tomorrow and maybe we can ask him. That's point one.
Point two is if they don't have any questions, then they don't have any questions, but I don't really see the point of reading out a document which isn't a question because then it's not a proper examination of the witness in any event.
So it's one or the other, but in any event I think that the witness will be here tomorrow, I think that we are all aware of the circumstances under which he is here, and that's something squarely within the control of the Trial Chamber. 8389
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Gajic.
MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have just consulted Mr. Tolimir. We have no questions for this witness. What we wanted to do we can also do tomorrow or we can make a written submission or we can do it in our final statement. It makes no difference.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: That means you have no cross-examination for the witness. Thank you.
MR. GAJIC: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Nyambe has a final question for the witness -- sorry, Judge Mindua. It's too late now.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Well it is late, and I only have four short questions.
Questioned by the Court:
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Witness, do you know why your commander wanted footage of the execution? Very briefly, please, because I also have other questions.
A. Well, you would have to ask him probably. As far as I know, he wanted them as a souvenir.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well. My second question would be to ask you about your feelings when you were requested to film this execution. Did you feel that you were carrying out an important official task for the army or were you just making -- doing a personal service to your commander?
A. As far as I know, I carried out orders. I don't know what to tell you now about my feelings at the moment. It was long ago. I can't 8390 remember how I felt at that moment. It's been over 15 years.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] When you know that you're doing somebody a service, for example, when the commander asks for a cigarette, that's not a military thing, that's a pure favour, but my third question is: The participants distributed copies among themselves. If I understood correctly, these are souvenirs?
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Why do you think did he collect those copies?
A. I didn't understand the question. What kind of copies? Dusko Kosanovic personally made a copy and brought him the cassette for him to have as a souvenir.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Yes, because the cassette that was copied as a souvenir was distributed to other participants, so it was meant to be a souvenir. That was the reason of it being distributed to all the participants.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Do you confirm that?
A. I don't understand. Was this a question or a comment? I apologise. Could you repeat the question?
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] You said that copies of your cassette were distributed to all the participants in the execution. For what reason was that done? Was it to give everybody a personal souvenir or did it have a military purpose?
A. I can only state my opinion. I don't know what they wanted to achieve. I believe that it was meant to be a souvenir of the war, of the 8391 combat. I don't know. I didn't receive one.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Very well. And my last question is: On page 75, line 20 of the transcript, you said that: "Everybody could borrow a copy from the video store at Sid." What kind of video store was that? Was it a public video store or was it a military facility?
A. No, it was just a regular video store, just like here in The Hague or any other town. You go there, you rent a video cassette, pay a fee, and return it after two or three days, and that's it.
JUDGE MINDUA: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.
JUDGE FLUEGGE: Sir, you will be pleased to hear that this concludes your examination of today. The Chamber would like to thank you that you came here, and now you are free to return to your normal activities. As there was no cross-examination, there was no re-examination, and all of a sudden this part is over. Thank you very much again and goodbye.
And we have to adjourn. First of all I have to express my apologies for the staff again, I think it is the third time this week that we are over time. My apologies, and I would like to express my gratitude for the patience of all the staff.
Thank you very much. We adjourn and resume tomorrow in the afternoon at 2.15 in this courtroom.
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.10 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday, the
2nd day of December, 2010, at 2.15 p.m.