¹³¹⁷ Monday, 26 April 2010

(Open session)

[The accused entered court]

--- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good morning to everybody. Good morning, Mr. Vanderpuye. I think the next witness has protective measures.

MR. VANDERPUYE: That's correct, Mr. President. Good morning.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: And therefore we go shortly into closed session.

(Closed session)

(6 lines redacted)

(Open session)

THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just wait a moment. Now the noise has stopped. Sir, would you please read aloud the solemn declaration on the card which is shown to you now.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Please sit down.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. ¹³¹⁸

JUDGE FLUEGGE: You have already been here and you know the procedure, and now Mr. Vanderpuye has some questions for you.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, Mr. Vanderpuye.

MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning to you, Your Honours. Good morning, everyone.

WITNESS: PW-015

[Witness answered through interpreter] Examination by Mr. Vanderpuye:

Q. Good morning to you, Witness. As you know, my name is Kweku Vanderpuye and I have a few questions in respect of your evidence today.

MR. VANDERPUYE: If I could please have the witness shown --

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

MR. VANDERPUYE: -- 65 ter 6230.

Q. Without telling us your name, can you tell us if you are the person named in this document.

A. Yes.

Q. All right. Thank you for that.

MR. VANDERPUYE: May I offer this into evidence at this time, Mr. President.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received under seal.

MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall become Exhibit P109, under seal. Thank you. ¹³¹⁹

MR. VANDERPUYE:

Q. Witness, do you recall having testified in the case of Prosecutor versus Radislav Krstic on 14 April 2000?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Was your testimony at that time truthful?

A. Yes.

Q. Have you had an opportunity to review your testimony before coming to court today?

A. Yes, I have.

Q. And was your testimony read back to you or did you listen to it?

A. I had an opportunity to listen to it, yes.

Q. Having listened to your testimony, does it fairly and accurately reflect what you would say were you to be examined here today and if you were asked the same questions?

A. Yes, everything is fair and accurate.

MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, I would offer the witness's prior testimony in evidence at this time. It is 65 ter number 155 -- 01551 and 1550.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, with other witnesses in this trial there did a problem arise. Is this transcript an official and corrected version or is this the first and unofficial and uncorrected version? Could you confirm that?

[Prosecution counsel confer]

MR. VANDERPUYE: I understand that this is the unofficial version. ¹³²⁰

JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think to avoid any problems with confidential parts of the transcript, we should only receive corrected and official versions, which are, of course, available, under seal or not under seal.

MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I will see to it that we have that for the Court.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: And I can anticipate that we will receive that, the redacted version and the full version, the confidential version, under seal.

MR. VANDERPUYE: That's right, Mr. President. Thank you.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Perhaps we can get exhibit numbers now, but I think we must make sure that we later will receive the official and corrected version.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 1551 shall be assigned Exhibit P110. 65 ter number 1550 shall be assigned Exhibit 111. Thank you.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: And which one is under seal?

[Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

THE REGISTRAR: P111 shall be under seal. Thank you.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Mr. Vanderpuye.

MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I have a brief summary and a few questions I'd like to put to the witness.

The witness is a survivor of the mass execution near Petkovci of approximately 1.000 Muslim men and boys on the 14th and the early-morning ¹³²¹ hours of the 15th of July, 1995.

On 11 July 1995, the civilian authorities directed that women and children were to go to the UNPROFOR compound in Potocari, whereas the men were to go towards Susnjari. Like thousands of other Muslim men, the witness went to Susnjari where a large column of men and boys between ages 16 and 60 formed and then moved out towards Muslim-held territory. On the night of 12 July, the witness together with about 30 other men were cut off from the main column. The following morning, on 13 July, they encountered heavy shelling. Between Konjevic Polje and Bratunac, the witness could hear Serb forces demanding their surrender over a megaphone, assuring the Muslim men that they would be treated according to the Geneva Conventions and exchanged.

The witness and the men in his group decided to surrender. Upon doing so, they carried their wounded along the asphalt road to Konjevic Polje. Along that road, they encountered some 300 other Muslim prisoners who had already surrendered. The men were taken to a hangar near Konjevic Polje where they were detained.

Shortly afterward the witness -- shortly after the witness arrived, the prisoners were ordered onto several trucks which then proceeded towards Nova Kasaba. The truck stopped at a sports field where the prisoners were ordered off. They were told to leave their belongings outside before entering. Approximately 15 to 20 Serb soldiers guarded the entrance gates, training their guns on the prisoners and swearing at them. Inside, the witness's group added a new row to the 2500 to 3500 prisoners that the witness estimates were already there when he ¹³²² arrived.

About 15 minutes later, General Mladic arrived and addressed the prisoners, after which they were ordered back onto trucks waiting on the road. As the prisoners moved towards the trucks, the witness overheard one prisoner ask a Serb soldier if they should retrieve their bags to which the soldier replied, "You won't need that any longer." Once the witness's truck was filled with approximately 119 prisoners it travelled towards Bratunac, stopping near a supermarket in the village of Kravica. The witness could see at least two other trucks behind his.

As it became dark, the soldiers guarding the trucks became abusive toward the prisoners, among other things, striking them with their rifle-butts. At one point the witness saw a soldier put a gun barrel into a prisoners's mouth and threaten, "I will kill you and ten other people if I hear another word being uttered in the truck." The guards called out for prisoners from Srebrenica, Glogova, and other villages. Those who responded were taken out and never returned. Throughout the night the witness heard screams, moaning, cries for help, and bursts of gun-fire.

The witness recalled that at approximately 1400 to 1500 hours on 14th July, the prisoners were driven on a truck, escorted by two armed Serb soldiers, in the direction of Zvornik to a school near an aluminium factory in Karakaj. When they arrived, the prisoners were offloaded and told to put their hands behind their heads. They were ordered into the school and forced to chant phrases such as "Long live the Serb Republic" ¹³²³ and "Srebrenica is Serb," as they passed between two columns of approximately 20 Serb soldiers that were securing the area. Once inside the witness was taken into a classroom on the second floor where he saw two men who had been beaten and bloodied. The witness recognised one of them. When the classroom was filled with approximately 200 prisoners, Serb soldiers came in and threatened the prisoners, demanding that they turn over their valuables or else be killed. Prisoners were periodically removed from the classroom and the witness could hear gun-fire outside.

The witness eventually passed out, and when he awoke only about 15 to 20 prisoners remained in the classroom. Two soldiers soon entered and ordered the witness and three other prisoners out of the courtroom. In the hallway outside the classroom, the witness, along with the other prisoners, was ordered to strip to the waist while his hands were bound. They were then placed in another classroom. About 15 minutes later the witness and several other prisoners were removed and made to board a truck. Once the truck was full, it drove for about 10 to 15 minutes, and when it stopped, the witness could hear gun-fire and yelling. He saw a large lighted field covered with the bodies of prisoners.

The witness was ordered off the truck and together with five to ten prisoners told to form a row. They were then taken along a rocky path to the execution site. One soldier ordered the prisoners to lie down. And as they started to comply, the soldiers fired at the prisoners' backs and heads from close range. The witness fell forward ¹³²⁴ over the bodies of prisoners who were already dead around him. Realising that he had not yet been seriously wounded, the witness took cover among the dead bodies. He could hear single shots ring out as the soldiers fired into the heads of wounded prisoners.

Another survivor crawled close to the witness and the witness managed to free the prisoner's hands. Together they made their escape, climbing over a mass of dead bodies and then into a wooded area. There the witness saw a large concrete canal where the two eventually hid until first light.

The witness heard firing and the sound of heavy machinery coming from the field he had just fled. Just after dawn, as the two survivors attempted to make their escape, they came across a small guard house with a large bulldozer parked in front. They returned to the canal and tried to escape in a different direction. This time they came across a Tarmac road running along a dam, which they crossed. From there, the witness could see bodies being repeatedly loaded onto a large tractor. That evening the survivors started moving towards Tuzla, and they reached the free territory on 18 July 1995.

That concludes my summary, Mr. President, and I have a few additional questions for the witness.

Q. Witness, in your previous testimony at page 2.943, lines 3 through 6, you were asked at the time if at the time of the fall of Srebrenica enclave in July 1995, you were a member of the Bosnian army. Your answer was "no." Do you recall that?

A. I do, yes. ¹³²⁵

Q. Now, following your injury and release from the Territorial Defence in 1992, were you ever mobilised?

A. Yes. I was mobilised again on the 5th of July. When the attack against Srebrenica started, we were all mobilised in order to protect the civilian population.

Q. And what was your assignment, having been mobilised?

A. Our assignment was to collect the population, to provide security, to help the -- with the digging trenches, and helping people who were subject to shelling, to help them find their way to the shelters, the women and the children. We did not have any weapons. I didn't have any weapons. Before the Srebrenica fell, I did not have either any weapons or a uniform.

Q. Okay. Thank you for that clarification. I'd like to ask you some questions about your time at the football stadium in Nova Kasaba. First could you tell us, how were the prisoners arranged at the time that you arrived there?

A. My group and myself, when we got off the lorry at the very entrance, at the gate, we had to leave all of our things, bags, and everything that had not been taken before at the place where we were first taken prisoners. And then from the gate where we had been awaited by 15 to 20 Serbian soldiers, they started yelling and swearing, and they started distributing us. And I could see that the courtyard was almost full, and my group from that lorry was almost at the very end. We were still filling up that stadium, that courtyard. And according to my estimate, I could see at least 2.000 people there. They were all sitting ¹³²⁶ down. Their hands were on the ground. They were sitting on the grass. And we just followed those who were before us, and then some people came after us. And that's how we went on to fill up that area. And the Serb soldiers were distributed across the entire surface of the stadium. They tried to keep order among us. They made sure that we were all seated down, and so on and so forth.

Q. Were you told exactly where to sit or did you just sit where you wanted to?

A. No, we could not sit where we wanted. As the groups were getting off the truck, they escorted us and made sure that our rows are really tight and that we sat next to each other.

Q. Okay. Thank you for that. I'd like to show you some photographs, if I may.

MR. VANDERPUYE: If I could have 65 ter 01101 in e-court, please. All right, if we could -- well, if we could just blow up the right side of the photograph a little bit. That's fine.

Q. Do you recognise what you see there, Witness?

A. Yes, I recognise the place.

Q. And what do you recognise it to be?

A. It's the stadium, the one that I've just described, near Nova Kasaba, where we were taken prisoners. I can maybe point to everything that I've described. If you give me a pen, I can point to the things that I've just described for you.

Q. Yes, I would like you to do that.

MR. VANDERPUYE: If I could have the witness mark the photo, ¹³²⁷ please.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

MR. VANDERPUYE:

Q. Witness, if you could indicate for us where it is that you entered, if you can recall --

A. Yes, yes. The lorries came from Konjevic Polje down this road. This is where we stopped. Do you want me to mark things for you?

Q. Yes, please. If you want to mark the lorries, you can mark it --

A. Here.

Q. Okay. That's fine.

A. This road leading towards Konjevic Polje, we can't see it. I can't show you where they came from, but I can show you the general direction. This is where the lorries came from and this is the gate where they stopped. And on the right-hand side the soldiers were standing -- actually, from both sides of the gate, on the right-hand side, and that's where we left all of our bags, next to the gate. And as we entered through the gate, they took us towards the football-pitch, and the football-pitch was already full, everything was full. The people were already sitting there. All the prisoners were already sitting there. Everything was full, which means that when we were escorted inside we were brought to sit here, in the next row, approximately here. As you're looking from Konjevic Polje, we were towards the very end of the football-pitch, somewhere around here.

Q. Okay. Let's see if we can mark these with some letters, that might be more helpful. Where the gate is, could you put a letter G, ¹³²⁸ please.

A. Yes.

Q. And where the soldiers were, could you put -- that is, the soldiers outside the gates, could you put a letter S where the soldiers were.

A. Yes, S.

Q. And if you could, could you put a letter T where the trucks were.

A. The trucks came from this direction and they double-parked in front of the gate. I don't know whether they stayed on or whether they proceeded. I don't remember. In any case, before the gate we got off our lorry and that's where the lorry double-parked.

Q. And I take it the X's that you've marked on there indicate the prisoners?

A. Yes.

Q. And how they were lined up in rows?

A. Yes.

Q. And could you indicate where you were --

A. Yes.

Q. -- by putting the letter Y.

A. Approximately here, where I put my last cross, that's where I was so I'm going to put my Y there.

Q. Okay. That's fine. Thank you very much.

[Prosecution counsel confer]

MR. VANDERPUYE: At this time, Mr. President, I would offer this photograph into evidence. ¹³²⁹

JUDGE FLUEGGE: This photograph with markings will be received.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned Exhibit IC32. Thank you.

MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you. If I could have in e-court, please, 65 ter 01166.

Q. I'm going to show you another photograph, which I'd like you to identify for us.

Witness, do you recognise the picture that's on the screen now?

A. Yes, I recognise them well.

Q. And do you recognise it to be?

A. This is the school where we were brought on that evening, from Kravica, where they brought us on the trucks to be executed. I can explain if necessary.

Q. Okay. If you could explain, that would be helpful. Do you need the pen to explain it, or can you explain it and then we'll mark it?

A. Yes -- well, a pen would be fine. But this pen marks so it may not be necessary for me to mark.

I remember well that we were brought on trucks and in front of the school we got off. There is also a sports pitch, but it can't be seen here. We had to run in front of the rows of Serb soldiers. I remember well these four or five stairs. The school pitch is at a lower elevation than the school itself, hence the stairs. I remember this double door. It's -- the school is old, and -- yes, I remember this well, I mean this door here.

Q. Does this photograph depict the entry point that you came in ¹³³⁰ from?

A. Yes, it does.

Q. And if you could, could you just mark where you entered? I think I see a small mark on the doors, but maybe you could make it a little bit bigger so that we could see it.

A. Yes, yes. Yes, I can mark. So you go down these stairs and you enter through this door. This is where we entered.

Q. Okay. Thank you. I'm going to show you another photograph, if I may, that's 65 ter --

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Are you tendering this?

MR. VANDERPUYE: I am going to tender this one. Thank you, Mr. President.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.

MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you. I'll wait for the exhibit.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned Exhibit IC33. Thank you.

MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you. If I could show the witness 65 ter 1163, please.

Q. Do you recognise this picture, Witness?

A. I recognise it. I can see the road on which we were taken to the school, and I can see the sports ground in front of the school. The school where we were tied up in the evening, and in the morning we were taken away for execution. Should I mark anything?

Q. Yes, please. Just mark the school with an S.

A. Yes. ¹³³¹

Q. And the pitch that you said you ran across, can you mark that? If you can indicate with an arrow.

A. Yes. Sure, I can do that. The trucks were parked here, in this part of the pitch. Well, the arrow is in the wrong -- points in the wrong direction. Here it is. So we got off the trucks, our hands behind our necks, and there were rows of Serb soldiers. We went down the stairs and entered the school. The entrance is on the right side of this -- well, from this perspective it's on the right side.

Q. Okay. Thank you for that.

MR. VANDERPUYE: I'd like to offer this into evidence as well.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned Exhibit IC34. Thank you.

MR. VANDERPUYE: If I may show the witness, please, 65 ter 1450. I understand it's page 166 in ...

Thank you.

Q. Do you recognise what's depicted in this photograph?

A. Yes, I recognise it well. This is the school to which we were brought in the evening and from which we were taken away for execution. The stairs that I mentioned in my statement that go down from the first floor, and I was in classroom number 3. I can mark it if necessary.

Q. Yes, if you could, that would be very helpful. Are you able to see the classroom you were in from here or the entrance to it?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. I'll ask you to mark that then, please. ¹³³²

A. I don't understand. What do you mean? Here, now, or when we were -- when we were taken in or out or -- I don't understand. Could you please repeat the question.

Q. Yes. Are you able to see the entrance to the classroom where you were held on this photograph?

A. This photograph -- well, I'm not sure I can mark it here. The classroom that we can see I think is number 1, and next to it there is number 2, so number 3 could be somewhere down in this direction so it can't be seen well in this photograph. But I can try to mark it, although you can't really see the entrance well.

Q. Well, if you could mark the direction of the classroom, that would be fine. In other words, if you could point an arrow in the direction you think it might be.

A. Sure, sure, yeah, I can do that. So we went up to the first floor, we took these stairs, and we went up these five, six stairs; and then there's this platform between the two storeys. I remember this very well. And then you take the next flight of stairs leftward, and the first door I can see here I believe is the entrance to classroom 1. And this iron railing that I mentioned in the statement was the one to which we were tied later on. And this one could be classroom 2, and classroom 3 would be further down this way. So it -- you go down this hallway in this direction and then you'll get to classroom 3, where I was.

Q. Okay. And when you were taken out of the building, did you proceed in the opposite direction? ¹³³³

A. Yes. From the classroom, where there were at least 200 people, as I said, and they took us out four by four. And the group of soldiers, four, five, or six of them, I don't remember exactly, were standing here. And they had ropes and there was a heap of clothes. We had to take all our clothes off to -- and be naked from the waist upwards. And they tied our hands here. They were standing here in the hallway. And once we were tied and undressed, I was pushed into this classroom, number 2. I can't see that the is door open here in this picture, but it was there. And that classroom was packed with people at the time. They were standing close to each other or sitting. There was no light. And I entered this classroom too.

Later when they received orders to take us away, they took us through the hallway, where I saw dead people and bloody people. They took us out and we had to get on the trucks that were waiting in front of the entrance.

Q. Okay. Just so the record is clear, the classroom 2 that you referred to is the second X from the left of this photograph; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. If you could, just put a 2 on top of that.

A. Yes. Just to make myself clear, once you climb the stairs you go left and the classroom was on the right. So if when we were going down this hallway, the classrooms were all to our right, classroom 2, 3, et cetera.

Q. If you could, just mark on the photograph here where you've ¹³³⁴ indicated 1, classroom 1, classroom 2, by writing 1 and 2.

A. Yes. 1, 2 would be hereabouts, and 3 would be somewhere here.

Q. Okay. Thank you for that.

MR. VANDERPUYE: I'd like to offer this one into evidence as well, Mr. President.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned Exhibit IC35. Thank you.

MR. VANDERPUYE:

Q. I just want to show you two other photos, if I may. The first is 65 ter 1177.

You won't need to mark this photograph, but I would like you to tell us if you recognise what it shows.

A. It's a bit blurred, but I think that this is the road that we took behind the school toward the dam. But the photograph isn't very crisp.

Q. Let me show you another photograph, it's 65 ter 1175. Do you recognise what's depicted in this photograph?

A. Yes, I recognise it well. I remember it very well. It was the very place where we were executed. I remember this heap of rocks and the canal where we found shelter, and I remember the building up there and a guard house. And there were also lights, reflectors, that were lighted. This is the part below the dam where we were executed in the evening.

Q. Okay.

MR. VANDERPUYE: I'd like to offer this photograph into evidence. ¹³³⁵

JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned Exhibit P112. Thank you.

MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you. And if I could show the witness, please, 65 ter 1174.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Leave the picture on the screen, please, the last one.

Judge Nyambe has a question.

JUDGE NYAMBE: Good morning, Witness.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

JUDGE NYAMBE: Just now in your evidence you have stated that this is the site where you were executed; right? Can you indicate the place --

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

JUDGE NYAMBE: -- the execution site?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can. Only the exact location is not visible here in this picture. It shows -- it rather shows the canal where we hid. Perhaps you have another photograph which shows the exact spot. It's further to the right, and we went down this grass and these low shrubs next to these rocks. It was before dawn that we went down to this canal, and I remember these rocks. So we lay in this part. Perhaps there is another photograph that would show the exact location.

MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, I misspoke before. What I would like to show the witness is 65 ter 1178, not 1174. ¹³³⁶

JUDGE NYAMBE: Will that show what the witness wants to show us?

MR. VANDERPUYE: I think so.

JUDGE NYAMBE: Okay, thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye.

MR. VANDERPUYE: If we could move the photograph a little bit to the left, blow it up and move it to the left, please. That's a little too big. I'm trying to see the right side of the photograph, if we could. Yeah, that's it.

Q. Do you recognise what's depicted in this photograph, Witness?

A. Yes, I recognise it well. This is the very spot where we were executed in the evening. The circled and marked area is the spot where we were shot, and we came from the direction of the school and the trucks took us to this spot. And I think I was hereabouts, if I may mark, where I lay. I think it's somewhere here. Yes. Thank you.

Q. Are you able to see the spot where you lay and where the execution occurred?

A. Yes, roughly. You can see the plateau here, and I can show where I lay, hereabouts.

Q. That would be very helpful if you could mark that, please.

A. Yes. It -- this shows my position roughly, and if I may mark with X's, there were dead people lying everywhere. I don't know how many rows there were, but the field was full. That's what I was able to see. It was lit. There were two large reflectors, so it was all very well lit.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you please encircle that cross which indicates your position. ¹³³⁷

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. Mr. Tolimir.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I wish all of us peace and may God give that this trial be ended fairly.

I don't know why the witness is allowed to show spaces before he -- he is shown a marked photograph. I would kindly ask you to show him in future only unmarked photographs, such that don't contain any markings.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.

MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. As Mr. Tolimir is aware, this is a photograph that was shown to the witness in the course of his previous testimony. This is the photograph that was admitted in relation to that testimony, not through this witness, but in relation to that testimony and was shown to him and it was marked. So I don't see that there is any -- that there is any merit to the objection that Mr. Tolimir has raised.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Would you tell us who marked this photo previously?

MR. VANDERPUYE: My understanding is that the witness marked this photograph previously.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Do you confirm that, Witness?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I confirm that.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Please carry on, ¹³³⁸ Mr. Vanderpuye.

MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President.

Q. Could you indicate the direction of the guard-house, if you can, from this photograph?

A. Yes, I can indicate it. It can't be seen here. Looking from where we were shot, we pulled out to the right, where there was the canal. And the guard-house was behind the dam in this part, hereabouts.

Q. If you could draw an arrow indicating the direction that it would be.

A. Yes, I can.

Q. All right.

MR. VANDERPUYE: I'd like to have this marked photograph admitted, please, Mr. President.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, it will be received.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned Exhibit IC36. Thank you.

MR. VANDERPUYE: And if I could --

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Nyambe has an additional question.

MR. VANDERPUYE: Oh, I'm sorry.

JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you, Mr. Vanderpuye. Just another question to the witness.

While we are on this photograph, can you mark where the canal is for me?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The canal, yes. The canal was in this direction. You can't see it on this photograph. And here there was ¹³³⁹ a grove and there were -- was undergrowth and grass, and the canal was in this direction, as indicated by the arrow. And we hid in that canal.

JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: I think that should be admitted as well. Are you tendering that?

MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, I am, Mr. President. Thank you. I'd like to show the witness --

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Just a moment.

MR. VANDERPUYE: I'm sorry.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: We need the number of the exhibit.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned Exhibit IC37. Thank you.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.

MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. I'd just like to show the witness again this photograph but from a zoomed-out perspective, please.

Thank you.

Q. Witness, during the course of your prior testimony you indicated that you were able to see bulldozers or a loader, I should say, and some bodies. Can you indicate -- can you see where on this photograph that occurred; and if you could, can you mark it.

A. Yes, I can indicate it. As we see, the bodies were where I have just showed them to be, and when we crawled out, we went to the canal. We were unable to see anything, but we heard the noise the machines made. ¹³⁴⁰ And once we started running, we saw from this direction headlights and a strong noise, some kind of tractor or excavator or something, from the direction where we were shot. And we went down to this canal. For a couple of hours we were unable to see anything.

When it dawned, we tried to get out of the canal, and then we went in the direction of the guard-house. From there we were able to see the dead bodies and the machinery. We had to go back down to the canal. We went up the road on which we were taken on the previous evening and came across a creek on this side, where we saw a burnt Muslim village and some 300 or 400 metres away we saw these burnt houses. Only the outer walls were standing. We went there to take refuge and hide and perhaps find some food. This is higher up, maybe at an altitude of about 200 metres. And we saw dead bodies lying there, in the field, and we saw the machinery, that is, the loader and the tractor and this backhoe. With the backhoe they were loading the bodies on a truck. But the tractor was taken away in about 15 or 20 minutes.

Now, how many people there were exactly, we were unable to ...

Q. If you would, just mark on this photograph where you saw the bodies with X's and where you saw the tractor or the loader with a T.

A. Yes.

Q. Thank you.

A. The crosses mark where people were lying in the field. The field was completely full. There was a tractor there and there was also the backhoe excavator. Do you want me to mark both the backhoe excavator and the tractor maybe using the same letter? I apologise, because I used X's ¹³⁴¹ to mark the dead bodies, and when it comes to the machinery what letters do you want me to use to mark those?

Q. You can use the letter T for "tractor" or whatever letter you want, just as long as we've got some indication. Thanks.

A. Yes, well, the tractor was around here somewhere, the very beginning of that. And loader excavator started loading the bodies immediately in that field.

Q. Okay. Thank you very much for that.

MR. VANDERPUYE: Just for the record, the tractor's indicated by T and the loader is marked with a letter U, it appears to be. And I would offer this into evidence as well, Mr. President.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this document shall be assigned Exhibit IC38. Thank you.

MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you.

Q. Witness, I just want to ask you about a few people. I'll ask you their names, and if you would don't indicate any relation you might have with them or relationship you might have with them, but just let me know if you recognise the name. Do you recognise the name Salih Mehmedovic?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. And when was the last time you saw Mr. Mehmedovic?

A. The last time I saw him was in the school, in the classroom. We were prisoners together. He had not been feeling well. He asked for water many times. When he tried to go through the door he was returned ¹³⁴² by the Serb soldiers. He wanted water. The windows were closed and the temperature in the classroom was at least 40 degrees. It was very hot, very sultry, and he was going mad. He wanted a drink of water. He tried to get out of the classroom twice. The second time he went into the corridor. I only heard shots. I could hear them shooting in front of the school. He never returned into the classroom, and after that I never saw him again.

Q. Do you know his father's name?

A. Emin Emirovic [phoen].

Q. And about how old was he when you last saw him?

A. Well, I would say 20, 25, 28, at the most.

Q. Okay. Do you know -- do you recognise the name Munib Ademovic? And just -- you can tell us if you recognise him or not.

A. Yes, yes.

Q. And when was the last time -- when and where was the last time you saw him?

A. I saw him at the very entrance into the classroom of that school where we were taken to. I saw him by the door at the entrance into the school. He was on -- lying down on the floor. He was covered in blood and I could not recognise him as -- when I saw him. He was not moving or anything. He was just lying down. I also fainted, but when I came to, I saw that there were some 15 or 20 people still in the classroom. And then I saw Munib sitting down. He also had come to, he had been beaten black and blue. I asked him what happened, but he couldn't tell me, he just couldn't utter a word. And that's the last I saw of him. ¹³⁴³

Q. Do you know his father's name or about how old he was when you last saw him?

A. 45 to 50, I would say, around 50. And I believe that his father's name was Huso. I'm not sure. 99 per cent I'm sure that his father's name was Huso.

Q. Do you recognise the name Kadrija Becirovic?

A. Yes, I know that name very well.

Q. About how old was he when -- the last time you saw him?

A. Between 25 and 28 or 30 at the most.

Q. Did you also see him at the school?

A. Yes, we were in the same classroom. He was next to me. When they called next four of us to come out, to strip to the waist, and our hands to be tied behind our backs, he was in the same group with me and with two other men I didn't know. When they took us to the truck, we were barefoot, we were walking over blood, and he was loaded on to the truck together with me. And when a Serb soldier started hitting us with a rifle-butt and saying that 20 more could be loaded on to that truck, he was forcing us to sit down but we were unable to sit down because we were so tightly squeezed, as sardines in a box. There was a burst of fire opened at our legs, and then Kadrija says, "I am hit." I don't remember anything else. I know that he fell among us in the lorry and that's the last I heard of him or saw him. And in the meantime the Serb soldiers were shouting, "Alija will take you whether you are dead or alive. We will still be able to exchange you."

Q. And do you recognise the names Safet Krlic, Seval Bektic, ¹³⁴⁴ Secan Gabeljic, Ramo Fejzic, and Nazim Bujic?

A. [No interpretation]

Q. And were these men with you at the school as well?

A. Yes, I am very familiar with the names. They were with me in the school, together with many others whose names have not been mentioned, but I remember all of them very well.

Q. And Safet Krlic, about how old was he at the time you saw him last, if you can approximate?

A. About 40, I would say.

Q. What about Seval Bektic?

A. 25, 28. He was a younger man.

Q. Secan Gabeljic?

A. 50 or so.

Q. Ramo Fejzic?

A. Fejzic, with a Z, Fejzic is the name. Fejzic. He was perhaps 40 to 45. I don't know exactly, but that would be his approximate age.

Q. And Nazim Bujic?

A. He was a younger lad, maybe in his early 20s, 20 or so.

Q. Well, that concludes my direct examination. Thank you very much, Witness. Thank you for your indulgence.

MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President, Your Honours.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Witness, you know that now the accused, Mr. Tolimir, has the right to put questions to you during his cross-examination. ¹³⁴⁵ Mr. Tolimir.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I would like to welcome everybody present, God bless you all. Could the witness please be shown the first page of 1D82, which is a statement provided by him to the OTP on the 16th of August, 1995, where under his profession it says a member of the BiH army and previously a humanitarian worker.

Cross-examination by Mr. Tolimir:

Q. [Interpretation] My question: Do you see the statement, sir?

JUDGE FLUEGGE: It's not on the screen yet. If you can see it, Mr. Tolimir, on your screen then it's already on the screen.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, it is, in the Serbian language.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.

MR. VANDERPUYE: I'm sorry, Mr. President, I just wanted to be sure we're not broadcasting this.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: We'll ensure that this will not happen.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. We now can see the document.

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Q. My question is this: Can one conclude from your statement that at the moment when you provided the statement, in August 1995, you were a member of the BH army? Thank you.

A. I joined the army after the fall of Srebrenica. When I came to Tuzla, the authorities wanted us to become engaged in the BiH army again, ¹³⁴⁶ and I remained a member until the Dayton Accords.

Q. So the answer's yes?

A. Yes, after the fall of Srebrenica. However, before Srebrenica fell, I was not a member of the BiH army. I was a civilian and I was working for the civilian structures as a humanitarian aid worker from the 16th of June, 1992.

Q. Thank you.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: May I both -- may I both speakers remind there to pause between question and answer because you are using the same language and the interpreters will not catch what you say.

Please carry on, Mr. Tolimir.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you.

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Q. The person who spoke to the witness was an investigator of the OTP, Susan Castro, in August 1995, and the statement of the security organs of the BiH army was provided to the 31st of August, 1995.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown 1D81.

Now we can see it on the screen. On the left-hand side is the Serbian version of the document.

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Q. My question is this: Witness, are you going to agree with me or are you going to state for the transcript that on the 25th of April you provided -- or, rather, in August 1995, did you tell them that you had ¹³⁴⁷ provided a statement to the military organs of the BiH army? Thank you.

A. I believe so. I can't remember. That was a long time ago.

Q. Thank you.

A. And I don't know how this error occurred, but it says here that we started on the 12th of July, but we started on the 11th, not on the 12th. I don't know how this error occurred. So it was not on the 12th that we started the interview but on the 11th -- actually, when we started walking from my place on the 11th, at the very beginning.

Q. On the 25th of April of this year you stated to the OTP, as the OTP has informed us, after the mobilisation you were never a member of the BH army; is that correct?

A. No. We did not understand each other. They never asked me about that. I did join the BiH army after the fall of Srebrenica enclave. When we reached Tuzla, I joined the BiH army again. They didn't ask me again whether I rejoined the BiH army. I only said that I wasn't a member of the BiH army when Srebrenica fell.

Q. Thank you. To the organs of the BH army, when you provided your statement on the 31st of July, 1995, you stated that you are a salesperson by trade; is that correct?

A. Yes. I'm a salesperson. That was my last professional, my last occupation, actually. I did other things as well.

Q. Thank you. Is it correct that you provided a statement to the OTP and that you said that from December 1992, you were never a member of the BiH army? Thank you.

A. From December 1992? I don't remember December. I said from ¹³⁴⁸ June 1992 on -- from the 16th of June, when I was wounded, when I was transferred to the humanitarian aid sector, and I worked for the civilian population. But I don't remember ever mentioning December. I don't remember ever mentioning anything about the month of December anyway.

Q. You said to the OTP that you were demobilised in 1992 and that after that, you were never a member of the BH army; is that correct or not?

A. I don't remember. I was demobilised after I was wounded. I was wounded, and then from the military structures I was transferred to the civilian structures on the 16 June 1992.

Q. What do you mean when you say "civilian structures"? Did they have any obligations vis-a-vis war activities and the activities that were carried out in keeping with war activities?

A. Of course, it is all related because we protected the population, the women, the children. We protected the shelters. We were distributing food. We had to provide security for the population.

Q. Which means that you performed duties and activities which had to do with the security of the citizens and population in the territory; is that correct?

A. Yes, civilian population.

Q. Thank you. Would that be the members of the TO, volunteers, members of the BiH who did that? Who was supposed to do that?

A. I didn't understand you. What do you mean?

Q. What was your capacity when you performed the duties that you have just described? Let me not go over the same ground again. What was ¹³⁴⁹ your capacity? What was your position? Which organs did you belong to or were subordinated to when it came to the performance of your task?

A. Organs of the civilian authorities.

Q. Thank you.

THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness and Mr. Tolimir please be asked to: A, slow down; B, make pauses. Thank you.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Q. I understand now. When it comes to the bodies of civilian protection, would they belong to the scope of the organs that are engaged in the defence jobs?

A. Not in peace time, but during the war I suppose that they can also be engaged in such tasks.

Q. Thank you. In the statement that you provided to the organs of security on the 31st of July, 1995, which is 1D81, on page 1 you stated the following.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you please look for the statement in question, 1D81, we have it on the screen.

Q. I'll start reading, and I quote: "With our families" --

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please slow down, Mr. Tolimir. You are still much too fast.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Q. In the statement I am reading and I quote: ¹³⁵⁰ "With our families we went to the village of Lehovici and then we parted ways. Able-bodied men started walking towards Jaglici, which is a village. And from Jaglici, the column was moving towards Buljim."

A. Yes.

Q. "When we reached Siljkovici we received an order that we should count ourselves and rest because shells were falling all the time along the road and we came under fire from anti-aircraft machine-guns and anti-aircraft guns. And when we got to the woods in Siljkovici, the order was given for us to head in the evening towards the asphalt road" --

A. Yes.

Q. -- "that is to say, in the direction of Konjevic Polje."

A. Yes.

Q. As I have just read out, you stated in that statement that you able-bodied men set off towards Jaglici; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. My question to you is this: What do you mean when you say "able-bodied men"? Thank you.

A. Every man from the age of 14, 15 onwards was considered to be an able-bodied person, an able-bodied man, but we didn't have weapons.

Q. Thank you. Thank you. In this statement you also say that orders were given. You said it twice. And you mention the first one to rest and to count heads, and the second was about the time and the direction of your movements.

And my question to you, sir, is this: Who was it who issued ¹³⁵¹ those orders and who was it who counted you?

A. I don't know who issued orders. I really don't know anything about that. I only heard, in that column, that we were to wait, and when it came to the counting of heads it was all of us who counted ourselves in the way we knew each other, the way we belonged to local communes, we walked in groups and we counted each other.

Q. And then would the representatives of each village count heads and report on the head count?

A. No, this could not happen. Nobody was in a position to count so many people; and second of all, we hit a Chetnik ambush and all-out shelling and we lost most of the people.

Q. We'll come to that. Can you tell us a bit more about the orders for you to rest, to count heads? What can you tell us because you did not just mention that in passing. We can't just skip that very important bit. Thank you.

A. As I've already told you, I believe every representative of a village, of a local commune, had made some arrangements to look after the people. We just -- couldn't just walk blindly as cattle. There should have been some order instilled among us.

Q. Thank you. During your testimony in the Krstic case, on page 2943 you stated, and I quote:

"We simply received an order from the civilian structures that all of us had to leave Srebrenica enclave."

And then you say, in Susnjari, [indiscernible] men, and the women and children to Potocari. And in your statement that you provided to the ¹³⁵² OTP, the second paragraph, you say:

"I believe that the order came from the command of the Bosnian government in Srebrenica."

Is everything that I've just read out true and fair and correct?

A. I suppose so. I don't know who it was who issued any orders. When Srebrenica fell and when Chetnik and Serb forces occupied Srebrenica, we had to start moving, we had to go somewhere. I don't know who had issued the order. I don't know. We had to start moving. We had to leave.

Q. Thank you. Is it true that you stated in the Krstic case that the civilian structures had issued that order, representatives of the civilian authorities of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Srebrenica issued that order?

A. I don't remember. If that's what I said, that may have been the case.

Q. Thank you. And do you remember that in your statement that you provided, on line 8, statement number 0081-8581, you said the following --

THE INTERPRETER: The number that the interpreter has just read is probably not correct because it was read by Mr. Tolimir too fast.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 2. Could that please be shown. 1D82. We don't see it yet. Page 2. Page 2 of the statement, please. Page 2. Thank you. Now we can see it.

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Q. Can you count to number 8, line number 8, and in the second ¹³⁵³ sentence you said:

"I believe that the order came from the Bosnian authorities in Srebrenica. We went together, men and women, until we reached the village of Lehovici, where we split.

"The men continued walking towards Susnjari, and in" -- and we will not go on.

Did you state this in your statement? Do you see here what is written?

A. Yes, this is what I stated.

Q. Thank you. In your statement that you provided to the OTP, the second paragraph, it says:

"I believe that the order came from the Bosnian authorities in Srebrenica."

Is that correct? Was that indeed the case?

A. I totally do not understand you. What are you asking me to tell you?

Q. Did an order arrive from the representatives of the Muslim government of Bosnia and Herzegovina in Srebrenica? You stated that in your statements, on the transcript, in the statements. Is it correct -- previously you stated who it was who issued the order, and now you say you don't know.

A. I suppose that there was somebody who issued that order. We could not just start walking. As soon as Srebrenica fell, as soon as Serb forces entered Srebrenica, somebody must have issued a -- an order for the people to leave Srebrenica and to start walking. ¹³⁵⁴

Q. Can you tell us when it was when you received that order, what day, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, when?

A. I can personally confirm I was there when we were trying to save the population, when it was said that there would be NATO bombing of Serb positions, but nothing came of it. In the evening around 5.00, or 1700 hours, on the 11th of July, in the afternoon, we started leaving our place of residence. It was on the 11th of July, in the evening.

Q. Thank you.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I stopped you because you are not waiting for the -- the transcript has finished. We need the proper translation and the transcript must be finished, and then you can start with your next question, not earlier, please.

And again, my wish to both of you, please slow down by answering and putting questions. It's not possible for the interpreters to follow at this speed.

Please carry on but slow.

THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone. Microphone. Microphone.

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Q. Did you receive the order on the 11th, before you started moving? It is possible that you started moving once you received the order on the 11th at 1700 hours?

A. I repeat, I don't know how the order was issued, who it was who issued the order. News spread. There was a state of panic. Can you imagine a situation when people were being killed, when houses were being ¹³⁵⁵ torched? The Serb forces were slaughtering people, killing children and women, and destroying everything on the way. Can you imagine the state of panic, the state of terror, and at that moment I don't know who issued the order, how it was issued. News reached us that we were supposed to start moving, and we did that, that very moment. We did not have the time to think. I don't know whether the order came before that or when. I can't remember.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please wait. And now you carry on.

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Q. I understand you, and please don't repeat what you have already said because I need some time. You said clearly that the civilian structures issued it, but now you say you don't know how. And a minute ago you said that the VRS had entered Srebrenica on the 11th. Is that correct? Because so far, you had been saying that they weren't there yet.

A. Yes, I can claim with full responsibility that they entered in the evening hours of the 11th.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.

MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. Mr. Tolimir seems to be misstating the record, and I just want to -- the question in this particular instance ultimately was okay, but the lead-in to the question substantially misstated the record on this case. The witness testified repeatedly that he does not know who issued the order. And so yet there has been no change in that circumstance since the beginning of this line of examination. I just want -- I just want to alert Mr. Tolimir to that ¹³⁵⁶ because I will be objecting to that if he continues in this line. Thank you, Mr. President.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, you should bear that in mind. I think this is a relevant objection by the Prosecution, but now we have reached the proper time for our first break. And I would like to remind you both again to slow down, especially if you are quoting any statement or other parts of the written documents.

We adjourn and resume at 11.00.

--- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

--- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, before you continue, we have received before the break several photos with markings as exhibits, and they were assigned IC numbers. This is not the way we have received documents with previous witnesses, and therefore I asked the Registrar to assign different numbers, P numbers, to these exhibits and they will be now read out for the transcript.

THE REGISTRAR: Thank you very much, Your Honours. And I apologise. IC32 shall be assigned Exhibit 113. IC33 shall be assigned Exhibit P114. IC34 shall be assigned Exhibit P115. IC35 shall be assigned Exhibit P116. IC36 shall be assigned Exhibit P117. IC37 shall be assigned Exhibit P118. IC38 shall be assigned Exhibit P119. That will be all, Your Honours. Thank you.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. And now, Mr. Tolimir, go ahead with your cross-examination, but please bear in mind to be very slow. It's impossible to have a ¹³⁵⁷ sufficient record if you continue asking questions with this high speed. It is impossible for the interpreters and the court recorder. Please carry on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Q. Witness, please answer my questions first and then comment, because otherwise both the point of my question and your answer is lost if you start with a comment or stating reasons. I asked you whether the civilian authorities of Bosnia-Herzegovina or Srebrenica said anything, and you are supposed to say yes or no or -- because if you start otherwise, then it will seem that I misquoted or stated something wrong, et cetera. So please answer my question first and then comment if you feel the need to.

A. If I said something in a statement, then probably it is true.

Q. This is a court of law. If you say "probably" to my question, then that means that your statement given in 1995 isn't correct.

A. No, I'm sure that the statement has been correctly translated.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, you are in the position to put questions. To give such a guidance is the duty of the Chamber. Please carry on your cross-examination and put questions to the witness.

THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, your microphone must be switched on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] ¹³⁵⁸

Q. Witness, on transcript page 2943 you said: "We went to the Lehovici hill, where we split. All women and children went to Potocari camp and the men toward Susnjari." My question to you is: Was that an order, for you to split at Lehovici, were you split from the women and children or was it your own decision?

A. I don't know if anybody issued an order, but we knew if the men were to go to Potocari that nobody would be saved.

Q. Thank you. That's your opinion. You answered my question.

A. That was my opinion.

Q. I didn't ask for your opinion. I only asked you to confirm whether or not what I read out is true.

A. Yes, it is true what you have read out.

Q. Thank you.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please show the witness the 65 ter document 01450 on page 5. It's a Prosecution 65 ter document.

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

(5 lines redacted)

Q. You said you'd -- so you're saying you don't want to answer? All right. Then you refuse.

A. But please refrain from mentioning my place of birth. ¹³⁵⁹

Q. Then please indicate Lehovici and the village of Siljkovici, mark them 1, 2, and 3 respectively.

A. I know the territory of Bosna-Herzegovina, and I know where Srebrenica is. I also know where Tuzla is, but it is difficult to indicate the exact position of any particular village.

Q. Thank you. I understand that you are unwilling to mark the positions. Just say yes or no.

A. I don't want to indicate the positions of those villages.

Q. Thank you. Please answer me. When you arrived at Susnjari, did you say in the Krstic case that according to the assessment of the municipal authorities, there were some 13.000 to 14.000 people there. Do you remember what you stated in the Krstic trial?

A. Yes, that's what I stated.

Q. Thank you. Can you now tell us to what municipal authorities were you referring then?

A. I don't understand. What do you mean, which municipal authorities?

Q. What municipal authorities made the assessment that there were 13.000 to 14.000 people?

A. It was based on the census which was carried for -- carried out before the fall of Srebrenica, and in that territory there was a population of 65.000 people, roughly, in that enclave, including men, women, and children. So according to an assessment, the number of men who had set out for Tuzla was about 15.000, but nobody was in a position ¹³⁶⁰ to count them.

Q. Thank you. Can you mention anybody's name who made that assessment of 13.000 to 14.000, as you stated at General Krstic's trial?

A. I cannot mention any names nor do I know who exactly made that assessment.

Q. Thank you. In your testimony in the Popovic case, on page 2D44 --

THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 2944.

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Q. It is actually the Krstic case. "There were about 13.000 to 14.000 people at Susnjari." However, on page 2945, lines 3 to 5, Prosecutor Harmon asked you a question.

"I understood that the people in that group of about 15.000 people left the enclave in a column. Is that correct?" Now, here we must clarify whether you are saying is correct 13.000 to 14.000 or what Harmon said, 15.000. Which of the two is correct?

A. I can repeat that the number was somewhere between 13.000 and 15.000 thousand. Nobody could have counted them, nor were they indeed counted.

Q. So all these estimates were rough estimates without any counting or without establishing the exact number by using any lists; is that correct?

A. No, it isn't. ¹³⁶¹

Q. But which estimate is correct then, because you said 13.000 to 14.000, Harmon says 15.000. What is correct, Harmon's statement or yours?

A. Well, you tell me how many there were exactly. You are in a position to say also.

Q. Thank you. You are the witness and the Trial Chamber is eliciting information from you, not from me. You're stating a fact for the transcript, not for me.

A. I said that the estimate of the number was from 13.000 to 15.000, and that can be found in all structures and in all protocols.

Q. Thank you, Witness. I'm not asking you what you have just said, but whether you stated for the transcript in the Krstic trial that there were 13.000 to 14.000.

A. I don't remember the exact number that I stated, but if it was recorded on paper then that's what I said.

Q. Thank you. You went on to say on page 2945 of the transcript, lines 7 and 8:

"The column was formed. The order was to go through Serb lines. There were 7.200 kilometres to the free territory, Tuzla." Obviously, here, the distance is wrongly stated because 7.200 kilometres is the distance found in the transcript. Can you now say how long the column exactly was or what you -- what was your statement about it?

A. Do you mean the length of the column?

Q. Yes, exactly. ¹³⁶²

A. I said from 7 to maybe 10 kilometres. It may not have been recorded, but nobody was in a position to measure the length of the column. The column -- a column was formed and we want to pass through Serb lines --

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please wait to the end of the translation. And now put your question.

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Q. Witness, you said that you had received an order to pass through Serb lines. So a column was formed to pass through Serb lines. Can you tell us what the order exactly said. How should you pass through Serb lines? Please explain to the Trial Chamber, not to me. I'm asking questions for the Trial Chamber to know.

A. I can only repeat. I don't know how orders were issued and to -- and by who. Imagine a crowd of 15.000 people. How can you have order there? I only know that news were received that we had to go through Serb territory.

Q. Earlier you were saying 13.000 to 14.000, now you're saying 15.000. You must adhere to your statements. That's my plea to you. Do not confuse us with differing statements.

A. I don't want to confuse anybody, and I don't want to be asked such questions. If I said 13.000 to 15.000, then I stand by that statement. I didn't count them, though, nor could anybody at that moment.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I think you have put this question several times to the witness and you received a sufficient answer. ¹³⁶³ Please carry on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. My -- I'm satisfied with a yes/no answer by the witness. I don't need elaboration. I just want concrete answers to my questions.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what your question was, so I don't know what to answer.

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Q. I asked you whether you knew who had issued the order to pass through the Serb columns, just say "I know" or "I don't know."

A. I don't know.

Q. Thank you. Witness, on page 2944, lines 18 through 24, you were asked about the composition of the column, and the Prosecutor is being recorded as quoting you that the column was made of men aged between 16 and 65, and you also said that there were a few women and younger women who were accompanying their boyfriends. There were 200 to 300 women. Is this an error in the transcript or is it indeed what you stated?

A. Yes, that's what I stated.

Q. Are you sure that there were 200 to 300 women?

A. I repeat again, there is -- nobody could count heads, nor did it ever occur to anybody to count people in the column. However, judging by the list of missing persons, a conclusion was reached that the figure was between 200 and 300.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown document -- ¹³⁶⁴

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you please -- could you please wait for the answer. Now put the question or your request.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] D1, page 12 and 14 -- in English and 14 in B/C/S. This is Becirovic's statement. Thank you. Thank you.

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Q. You see Becirovic's statement here and he says, and I quote: "There were not many women in the column and I didn't see many children either. There may have been some dozen women." Becirovic was the commander of that column. Thank you. Is that correct or not? Thank you.

A. First of all, let me say that I do -- I cannot read the small print. Second of all, I don't know who Becirovic is, I don't know anything about the statement. I know what I said, what I stated.

Q. Ten and 11 -- 11th line from the top, you will see he says that there were not many women in the column, and he also says that he didn't see many children either. Thank you. That's line 27 in the English version.

A. I don't want to embark on a discussion as to what that Becirovic stated. I don't know who he is. I adhere by my own words.

Q. Thank you. I didn't ask you that. I can only tell you that this statement was provided to the organs of the BiH army and that they recognised Becirovic as the commander of that column, and I suppose that they know who was in command of the column.

Can you tell us, please, for the transcript, in his statement ¹³⁶⁵ does it say what I have just read out, that there were not many women?

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, you didn't indicate which line you were quoting. I didn't find it in the quoting -- just a moment, please, and you got the answer from the witness that he doesn't know the person who gave this statement.

THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Microphone.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. In the English-language version it is page 14, line 27.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: What is your question?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My question was this: Does he believe that what he said was correct, about 200 to 300 women, or whether Becirovic was correct, who said that there were not many women, maybe not more than ten?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I repeat. I don't know. I don't want to discuss Mr. Becirovic's statement. I don't know the man. I only know and I adhere by my words, by what I stated.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: And this answer you have already received before, Mr. Tolimir.

Mr. Vanderpuye.

MR. VANDERPUYE: Your Honour, the nature of the question itself is inappropriate to put to the witness. It's inappropriate to question the witness about the veracity of another witness's statement or to compare his statement to another witness's statement. It's the nature of the objection. I understand the witness has answered it, but I think ¹³⁶⁶ Mr. Tolimir would be well advised on that specific legal issue.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, put questions to this witness what he knows, what is his estimation. That is the most helpful way for your cross-examination. Carry on, please.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. This is precisely what I'm trying in order to understand --

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please carry on. Don't explain and don't discuss it with the Chamber. Please carry on. Put questions to the witness.

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Q. Witness, when you started moving towards Potocari, as you have just explained - and you said that it was on the 11th around 1700 hours - was the Serbian army already in Potocari when you started moving towards Susnjari? This is my question. Thank you.

A. I didn't go to Potocari at all. Women and children went to Potocari. We, as I have already told you, started moving in the direction of Susnjari, or rather, Jaglici. There are actually two or three villages or hamlets bearing different names and all in the direction of Buljim.

Q. Thank you.

A. Could you please hold on just a moment. I need to provide a bit lengthier explanation. At that moment I don't know whether the Serb forces had entered Potocari, but I claim with full responsibility that they did enter Srebrenica in the evening on the 11th, they entered the town. ¹³⁶⁷

Q. Thank you. I spoke about that because for a while you were moving towards the village of Lehovici together with the women, and then the women and the men separated. They went to Potocari and you proceeded. I thought that you understood me. If you didn't, let me repeat. Before you were separated from the women and the children, before you started moving towards Susnjari and they started moving towards Potocari --

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, don't repeat all your explanations. You are not giving evidence. Please put questions to the witness. You are in cross-examination with this witness.

Carry on.

THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone is not on.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please switch on your microphone. It is not translated and not recorded otherwise.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I asked the witness whether the Serbian forces were in Potocari around 1700 hours, when the families started moving towards Potocari and Susnjari. Thank you.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't answer whether they were there at 1700 hours because I was not in Potocari. I told you that they had entered Srebrenica on that day, in the evening, and you're asking me something else.

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Q. Thank you. Just answer my question, Witness.

A. I said what I did. ¹³⁶⁸

Q. In your statement you stated that the Serbs had confiscated a UN vehicle; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. When did you hear that the Serbs had confiscated a UN vehicle?

A. We heard that between the 10th and the 11th, when the DutchBat had withdrawn from Zeleni Jadar, I don't know what the elevation or the feature number was. I believe that their vehicle was taken already on the 10th of July.

Q. And did the Serbs take that vehicle away or did it remain in position?

A. The Serbs took it away for their own purposes.

Q. Thank you. In this statement and in your previous statements you stated that you had received an order for militarily able-bodied men to go to Susnjari and that the women and the children should go to Potocari. The order that was issued by the civilian authorities in Srebrenica, as you stated, did it leave people free will to decide whether they would go to Susnjari or to Potocari?

A. [No interpretation]

MR. VANDERPUYE: Mr. President --

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Q. Thank you.

A. Of course.

MR. VANDERPUYE: I'm sorry to interrupt the witness, but I feel that I need to object at this point.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: No, Mr. Vanderpuye -- ¹³⁶⁹

MR. VANDERPUYE: Yes, Mr. President.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: I saw you on your feet --

MR. VANDERPUYE: Oh, thank you.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- and just wait for -- that you get the floor.

MR. VANDERPUYE: I'm sorry, Mr. President.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: I would like to hear the answer, and then it is up to you.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course people could choose, but at that moment, very few people, if any at all who were either sick or disabled, went to Potocari. They did not believe that the Serbs would ever get to Potocari, or rather, they didn't want to get into the Serb hands and they feared they would if they went to Potocari.

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Q. Thank you.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye.

MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you, Mr. President. And I apologise for interrupting the witness.

The question was put, again which I think misstates the evidence in this case, that there was an order that was "issued by the civilian authorities in Srebrenica, as you stated," is how it was put to the witness in this case. This witness has repeatedly said that he does not know who issued the order. He stated that he believes that it was civilian authorities previously, but he's never said in this trial, or any trial, that it was the civilian authorities who issued the order. This is a fact that Mr. Tolimir has repeatedly misstated in putting ¹³⁷⁰ questions to the witness. The ultimate question was a different one altogether. And so I think otherwise it stands, but I am concerned about this really misstating the evidence in this case. And I want to -- I want Mr. Tolimir to be aware of that. I don't know if it's a translation error or something else, but it's very clear in this case what the witness's answer has been up until now.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: We have the answers of the witness on the record. We have previous testimony received in evidence. We have all that and we dealt with this problem already. I think this witness is able to answer the question from his knowledge and we will receive the evidence as it is necessary.

But on the other hand, Mr. Tolimir, be very careful quoting in the correct way. Please carry on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The statement has been given to me by the OTP. It is 1D82. And it clearly shows what the witness stated. Can I please read this just to demonstrate whether he said that or whether he said what Mr. Vanderpuye is now saying? Thank you. It's just one sentence. Thank you. Things are always in dispute here because nothing is elaborated properly and nothing is brought to a proper end.

The witness says in the statement that I'm just quoting from on page 2 --

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Can you please indicate exactly where you are quoting from.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D82. The witness's statement ¹³⁷¹ provided to the International Tribunal, lines 8 and 9, on page 2 of the statement, and I quote --

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please wait a moment so that we have it on the screen. Line 8 and 10, you said. Is it in English or in B/C/S?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 8 and 9 of the Serbian version, 8 and 9 of the Serbian version because the witness speaks Serbian, and the same applies to the English version, where it says: "I believe that the order arrived from the authorities of the Bosnian government (BiH) ... in Srebrenica."

And this is what I quoted, nothing else. I didn't quote anything else. I'm -- and I asked the witness whether it is correct that he stated that, and since I didn't receive an answer at the beginning, all of a sudden it's a problem and Mr. Vanderpuye's objecting to that. I just wanted to hear whether the witness stated that in his statement provided to the International Tribunal, yes or no. Thank you.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have not found it yet, but if you are reading from my statement that means that I have stated.

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Q. Look at the statement. It's in front of you. It's in the second paragraph, the second, third, fourth sentence in line 4, second sentence: "I believe that the order came from the command of the Bosnian government in Srebrenica."

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Do you see that, Witness?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Was that your statement? ¹³⁷²

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I suppose I said so, especially if that's how it was recorded. I've told you several times that I don't know who issued those orders.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please carry on, Mr. Tolimir.

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Q. Thank you, Witness. Were there any military commanders in the column? Thank you.

A. I suppose that there were, but I didn't know them and I didn't see any.

Q. Thank you. Please. Who was in charge of the column, military commanders or civilian authorities?

A. I don't know who was in charge of the column. I don't know who was in command.

Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us then or can you confirm that both exerted influence on the column; is that how we are to understand your answer? Thank you.

A. I can't claim anything. As I've just told you, 15.000 people or anything between 13.000 and 15.000 people in one place, who was it -- who was there to instill any order to that mass of people?

Q. Thank you very much, Witness.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown 1D47. Thank you.

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Q. Just yes or no. Do you recognise the person in this photo? Thank you. ¹³⁷³

A. No, I don't recognise this person.

Q. Could you please write the word "unknown" on the photo.

A. No, I don't know him.

Q. Could you please write that on the photo? It's a document. It will be admitted.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, this is not a sufficient way. You have the answer on the record. We have on the record which photo was shown to the witness, and this is enough of evidence. It's not necessary to make any markings of this kind, and we will recommend the Prosecution to do the same. We have everything on the record and it is very clear that he said that he doesn't know.

Carry on, please.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Could the witness then be shown 1D48. Thank you.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Do you tender this photo?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I would like to tender this photo, and I would like the next document to be displayed, 1D48. Thank you.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues]...

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter document 1D47 shall be assigned Exhibit D26. Thank you.

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Q. Witness, could you please identify the face that you see in this photograph? Thank you.

A. I can identify him, but I don't know why you're asking me. ¹³⁷⁴

Q. A minute ago I asked you whether there were any commanders in the column and you said you didn't know. I now must identify some of these persons, and probably later I will have additional questions. But first say yes or no. You didn't know the first man but you know this one?

A. I know him somewhat.

Q. Was that person in the column? Did you see him?

A. I didn't see him personally.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: I stop you here. Witness, you were asked if you know this person and you said you recognise him but you don't know why you were asked by Mr. Tolimir. This is not a proper question of you. You should say you recognise him, do you know who it is, and then tell the Court, please.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I recognise him.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Who is it?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Zulfo Tursunovic.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Mr. Tolimir, carry on, please.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this photograph into evidence.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes, it will be received.

THE REGISTRAR: This document shall be assigned Exhibit D27. Thank you.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we have 1D50, please. Thank you.

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] ¹³⁷⁵

Q. Witness, can you identify the persons in this photograph, and if you can, tell us who they are.

A. No, I don't know them personally.

Q. Thank you.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we now see 1D52, please.

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Q. Witness, please tell us if you know who the person is who's reading from the sheet of paper and what was his position.

A. I cannot recognise the person with the paper. I don't know who he is.

Q. Thank you.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May we please see 1D82, page 2, paragraph 5 of both the Serbian and English versions. Now let us see the fifth paragraph.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Could you please indicate what kind of document this is. It seems to be a statement, but of whom and to whom?

THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is the statement of this witness, and I gave the reference, 1D82. This is a statement that he gave to the Prosecution.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Q. In the fourth paragraph, I'm reading the last three lines, quoting: ¹³⁷⁶ "Fire was opened on different parts of the column. The column had to stop during the shelling. I heard that there were many wounded and killed by the shelling, but I didn't see this."

Witness, do you remember the statement that you gave?

A. I gave this statement, but I doubt that these are my initials. I don't remember ever initialling this way. I stand by everything I said except for the last thing. It reads "I did not see this," but I did see that. On the first occasion we were ambushed, there were people both killed and injured.

Q. If you saw it, then tell us how many were injured or were killed, because here you say, "I didn't see this."

A. 40 to 50 wounded persons were carried from Jaglici to the first ambush at Kamenica in the evening, and maybe a dozen people were killed. I said that but it may not have been recorded.

Q. Thank you. Can you tell us at which locations were you ambushed and when the column was first shelled in the early-morning hours of the 12th of July, if I understood you correctly.

A. Yes. The -- I don't know the exact locations, but I can say that as soon as we entered Buljim, which was on the Serb-controlled territory, in the early-morning hours the shelling started and our column was fired at from an anti-aircraft gun when we went from Kravica to Konjevic Polje.

Q. Thank you. On page 2 of your statement, sixth paragraph, you can see it, you say:

"We continued to walk until we reached a forest near the village of Siljkovici at around 1530 hours on the 12th of July. The shelling ¹³⁷⁷ continued off and on all the time. The column had broken up into groups. Everyone was looking for neighbours and friends. I didn't count the people around me. I was separated from my brother and I haven't seen him since. I heard 30 people were killed and left by the river and that 24 (as interpreted) were wounded and taken off to the forest." Have I quoted you correctly?

A. I was following what you read from the statement, but I didn't write it all that way.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, there was one problem. You quoted that 24 were wounded, but on the statement we saw 42. That was perhaps a misreading.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, that it was wrong. The witness said 42 in the statement that the Prosecution forwarded to us. Thank you.

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Q. So you doubt that what you said is true?

A. I don't doubt it. I don't know exactly how this is stated, but I said that the first time we were ambushed, that there were people killed and injured.

Q. You said that there were a dozen killed and the others were wounded, 40 to 50, on the first ambush; correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And were 30 killed after the second shelling?

A. Even more than that.

Q. Can you say how many? ¹³⁷⁸

A. You are burdening me. I didn't dare raise my head, let alone count the dead.

Q. So your estimate is more than 30?

A. I claim with full responsibility there were over 100.

Q. All right. You say that there were over 100. Which river was that where these hundred -- 100 people were killed, near what village was that?

A. I don't know the area. I'm telling you. I had never been there. There was a small river or brook from Koprivna [phoen], and that brook downstream flowed into the Kravica, but I don't know its name.

Q. Thank you, Witness. On page 3 of this statement, could we please turn to page 3, it is page 3 of the English version as well, third paragraph, you speak about the shelling of the column that followed. And you say:

"The shelling killed and wounded many people. When I" -- no.

THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Q. "I saw approximately 30 to 40 bodies. I don't know what happened to the wounded from the first attack on our column." My question is: Was that the second attack, the second shelling, where you said that about 100 were affected?

A. Yes. Here it says I don't know what happened to these 30 to 40 people, but I meant the ones that were -- that were killed in the first ambush and they were carried away. But in the evening, we were ambushed for the second time. ¹³⁷⁹

Q. Can you tell us anything about the location where you say that over 100 people were killed?

A. I don't know what you mean exactly, tell you anything.

Q. A description of the terrain where that river was.

A. Well, I can only repeat that I had never been there before and it was night. We were in a group. I know approximately where it was, between Buljim and the village where we were captured on the following day when we descended from Sandici. It was to the left of the Kravica, in a forest. I cannot give you the names of the individual locations.

Q. Thank you. That will do. Can you now tell us who led the column to that place where it was scattered, as you say?

A. I can only repeat that I don't know who led the column.

Q. Thank you. In this statement you described the column and speak about suicides in the column; is that correct or not?

A. I said that there may have been some suicides because once that poison was used against us, tear gas, et cetera, well, people may have reacted frantically, but there can't have been many suicides.

Q. I read -- I found in your statement that you say many in the column committed suicide. Can you describe that incident to us, like the two brothers who got in a fight with weapons?

A. I only heard that they were brothers. I don't know them. I heard that there was such an incident.

Q. You said that one had an automatic rifle and the other a semi-automatic rifle, and that they used these weapons against each other. Is that correct? ¹³⁸⁰

A. Well, if I said as much, it is.

Q. You also said that many used hand-grenades against each other, that there was a group of four or five people who held each other by the hands and used hand-grenades, and there was much blood all around. And you say, I quote:

"I couldn't look at the bodies any longer. I saw more than 40 bodies at the spot where I was. My relative and I took some water from the river and we continued." Is that what you stated?

A. No, I didn't state it that way. That I saw 40 bodies on a heap, that's most certainly not what I stated.

Q. Look at page 2 of your statement. I can see that it's the third paragraph.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's page 4. Can we see that, please. Can we please see page 4 of the statement.

Q. Can you see it on the screen? We don't have it on our screens yet.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues] ... have it on the screen.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can't see it, not the Serbian version. [Microphone not activated]

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In Serbian, page 4 --

JUDGE FLUEGGE: [Previous translation continues]... ask for page 4.

THE REGISTRAR: This is page 4. ¹³⁸¹

THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

[Defence counsel confer]

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness kindly look at the last two lines in this paragraph. I quote:

"I could not look at the bodies anymore. I saw about 40 bodies total" --

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Which paragraph are you referring to?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think the witness can see it. These are the last two lines of the first paragraph on page 4 of the Serbian version of the document.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you.

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Q. I quote the last two lines: "I could not look at the bodies anymore. I saw about 40 bodies total in the immediate area that I stayed in. My cousin and I took some water from the river and continued."

Thank you. Witness, my question is: You gave this statement to the OTP and we got it from them. You now claim -- do you now claim that something was entered in this statement that you never said?

A. I don't remember that I said anything about 40 bodies. I saw a number of people, but 40 bodies, I don't know.

Q. But did I quote correctly? Is that what your statement says?

A. Yes, I can see that's what it says.

Q. Can you give us any details about this location where these suicides were committed? You said that it was by a river. Can you say ¹³⁸² which river?

A. I can repeat once more that it was a river that we passed on our way from Kamenicko Brdo to the spot where we were taken prisoner on the following day. I don't know the name of that small river.

Q. Thank you. On page 4 of your statement which we have before us right now, you say in the Serbian version - and the translation is on page 5, first paragraph, and the Serbian version is page 4 - and I quote: "I heard that the Serbs had confiscated APCs from the United Nations at the UNPROFOR check-point as well as in Kiprova and Jadar, and that they had taken them away towards Milici." My question is this: Who did you hear it from, did you hear that in the column, and when did you hear that information?

A. I didn't hear it in the column. I heard that immediately before the fall of Srebrenica, on the 10th, in the evening, when Zeleni Jadar had fallen and when the Serbs had taken that check-point. I heard that the Serb forces were approaching Srebrenica. I heard news that the UNPROFOR APC had been captured.

Q. Thank you. When you were arrested you arrived at the football-pitch, as you say on page 2D50 [as interpreted], line -- lines 23, 24 of the Krstic transcript. You said that at the football-pitch in Nova Kasaba, according to your estimate, there were about 2.000 to 3.000 people. However, on page 5 of your statement provided to the OTP you said that there were about 2.000 people.

Could you please tell us here, before this Trial Chamber, which information is correct. Is it 2.000 or 2.000 to 3.000? Thank you. ¹³⁸³

A. You keep on repeating your questions all the time. I said 2.000 to 3.000. At that moment nobody could count the people. I just assumed that that was the full capacity of the football-pitch.

Q. Thank you. I respect any answer. I'm not underestimating any of your answers. You said 2.000 to 3.000. I actually just quoted back to you what you said at different times. Thank you.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown 65 ter 01450, page 33. Thank you.

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Q. Do you recognise the photo? Was it also shown to you in the Krstic case and has it been shown to you here?

A. Yes, I recognise it and yes it was shown to me.

Q. Thank you. On page 2D52 [as interpreted] in the Krstic case, you said that the football-pitch was packed with Muslims and that at the gate there were 15 to 20 Serb soldiers. You stated that in answering the Prosecutor's question, you said that there were 15 to 20 Serb soldiers; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Also in your statement provided to the OTP, page 5, paragraph 4, in the English version, you stated, and I quote:

"I was sitting together with the other prisoners for some 20 minutes or so, and then I saw Ratko Mladic getting out of an APC. It was on the 13th of July, between 1400 and 1430 hours." Then after that you stated this:

"Mladic was standing on a stage which was erected in the ¹³⁸⁴ football-pitch."

Could you please confirm whether this is correct or is there something that you failed to mention?

A. This is a fair representation of the situation. We were there for some 15 to 20 minutes. The stadium was already packed, and then Commander Mladic came and he personally addressed us and asked whether we knew him. I don't know if he was standing on a stage or whether he was standing on a step which was in front of us. I said that I couldn't -- I cannot be sure because I didn't see him. He was standing outside of the football-pitch.

Q. And now as you're looking at the photo, could you please mark the place where you were and could you put number 1 next to that place? Could you also mark the place where Mladic was and put number 2 next to that. And could you please mark the place where the Serb soldiers were standing and put number 3 next to that place. Thank you. First draw a circle and then put numbers to each of the circles.

A. As I've already said to the Prosecutor, the place where I was standing was somewhere around here. This is number 1.

Q. Thank you.

A. And what else do you want me to mark?

Q. The stage and Mladic is number 2.

A. I repeat, I don't know whether there was a stage at all or whether there was something else from before. He was standing in front of the -- in front of us. This is where he came and he was standing by the goal-posts, and I can put number 2 next to that. ¹³⁸⁵

Q. Go ahead.

A. About here.

Q. And what about the Serb soldiers, where were they?

A. The Serb soldiers were distributed across the entire pitch. They were keeping order across the football-pitch.

Q. Could you please mark that?

A. Yes, I can put some crosses where they were.

Q. Thank you.

A. These are the soldiers, number 3, but there were several of them across the entire football-pitch.

Q. Thank you. Thank you. You are saying or actually are you saying that there were 2.000 to 3.000 of us? Are you saying that the stadium could accommodate 2.000 to 3.000 people, plus the stands, plus the soldiers, and everything else?

A. Yes, I believe so.

Q. Could you please put a square in the photo to show us where the prisoners were sitting, and leave the room for the stands and for the soldiers.

A. I have already done it before, but let me do it again.

Q. Go on, just put a line, a square, a line around the area where the prisoners were. Thank you.

A. How can I draw that? The entire field was packed with people. Can you imagine --

Q. I apologise, but there has to be a stage, there have to be soldiers. Could you please draw a line around the area where the ¹³⁸⁶ prisoners were?

A. I'm repeating once again, I don't know. I could not even see whether there was a stage or step or some sort of a contraption. In any case, we were all seated and we could see Ratko Mladic standing here with a group of soldiers, the Serb soldiers who were guarding him, and that's the place from which he addressed us, scolded us, and promised us that we would all be exchanged, that we would be given food and water, and finally he killed us all.

Q. Thank you. Could you please draw any kind of line to show the area where the prisoners were.

A. Yeah, I can mark the entire stadium.

Q. Okay. Mark the entire stadium.

A. Okay. I can mark the entire stadium, then. I apologise. The entire football-pitch.

Q. Thank you.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this photo please be admitted into evidence.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will be received.

THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this photograph shall be assigned Exhibit D28. Thank you.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Q. Witness, on page 2994, a segment of your statement was quoted. I will be reading only the quote.

"The Serbs asked who participated in the take-over in Kravica ¹³⁸⁷ when it fell under the BiH control."

In your statement, in the Serbian language, it's the penultimate paragraph on page 5. And your answer to that was this and I quote from that same transcript:

"I don't remember and I don't know how this was translated." Could you please explain the source of confusion. Why did you mention the translation here? Thank you.

A. I don't know. I didn't hear anybody asking if I knew who had taken over power in Kravica. I never heard that.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown his own statement, page 5.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Perhaps you could repeat the number of the document again. There's some confusion.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D82, page 5, penultimate paragraph in the Serbian language. Thank you.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Then we should make clear that this will not be broadcast.

[Defence counsel confer]

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In the English version you will find the same quote on page 5 in the last paragraph.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: What is your question, Mr. Tolimir?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I asked the witness whether in his statement he stated, and I quote:

"The Serbs asked who was it who had taken part in the take-over in Kravica when Kravica fell under the control of BiH." ¹³⁸⁸ That's page 5, penultimate paragraph. And now the witness says that he doesn't remember that that came up at all.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see it here; however, I don't remember anything about Kravica. I know that they were looking for some people from the villages surrounding Srebrenica.

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Q. Thank you. So I quoted your words correctly. I did not make anything up. I just want to prove that I quoted your words properly. Just please state for the transcript whether I could quote your words properly, yes or no?

A. Yes.

Q. Thank you. There are quite a few discrepancies between your statement provided to the security organs and the OTP. I don't know why that is, but just for the transcript I would like to repeat that on the 31st of July, 1995, you provided a statement to the security organs of the BiH army. And then in August 1995 you provided a statement to the OTP. So we are talking about a time difference between July and August --

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, we have all that on the transcript. It's not necessary to repeat it again. Just put questions to the witness. We are in cross-examination.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Q. Witness, were you able to read the statements in both cases, in the case of the statement provided to the security organs as well as to ¹³⁸⁹ the OTP, before signing them?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you sign them?

A. Yes, I believe so. Of course.

(15 lines redacted)

JUDGE FLUEGGE: This part of the transcript will be redacted.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise. If he keeps on revealing my identity, I will ask you to stop the cross-examination.

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Q. I will not reveal your identity. Thank you for the warning. ¹³⁹⁰ There are people here who control the transcript and the broadcast, and you can behave any way you want. Thank you.

Could you please tell us what do you mean when you say "the collection of humanitarian aid"? Thank you.

A. That concerned the collection of food for the refugees. We had a lot of refugees from other municipalities, and we had to look after their dietary needs and their accommodation.

Q. Thank you. Is that the reason why there are different versions about your profession? In the BiH army statement you said that you were a sales assistant, and then you said to the OTP that you were a humanitarian aid worker. Is that only because you wanted to explain your role or were you really engaged in all those different professions? Thank you.

A. When I mentioned my occupation or profession, I suppose that they asked me what my profession was before the war. I had other professions and occupations, but I don't want to mention them again. After the war started and after I was wounded, I was transferred into the civilian structures, where I was in charge of collecting humanitarian aid.

Q. Thank you. Did somebody appointed you to the duty of collecting humanitarian aid? Did you receive an order or an authority to do that? Thank you.

A. Probably somebody appointed me, but I wouldn't be able to say who it was now.

Q. Thank you. Please explain to the Trial Chamber how humanitarian aid was collected in Srebrenica. ¹³⁹¹

A. I'm saying how we could work in the territory of my branch office. We sowed wheat. We [indiscernible] plums, and we would distribute to the people what we had. And when a convoy arrived we would also distribute flour or whatever arrived.

Q. Was humanitarian aid sold in Srebrenica over the counter?

A. I don't know that there were such instances. It -- this may have happened, but I had nothing to do with the influx of aid into Srebrenica.

Q. Who was entitled to humanitarian aid by social class?

A. I don't know what the priorities were, but I know that a kilo or at the most a kilo and a half per head of the family were distributed --

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, I stopped you. You should wait for the end of the answer. Now put your question.

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Q. As the representative of your region, did you receive information about the arrival of aid convoys?

A. No. Nobody could know when the Serb soldiers would let a convoy pass at Bratunac or Zvornik.

Q. Was there a warehouse of any sort in Srebrenica where the humanitarian aid was kept until the representatives of the local communes or the villages arrived to distribute it?

A. Probably there was a warehouse for flour and oil and the like, but I had nothing to do with that. There was another man who transported it. We only distributed it.

Q. Is it correct to say that the aid for your village or region could not be distributed without you knowing about that? ¹³⁹²

A. No, that's not correct. We made decisions collectively. It wasn't myself who did that.

Q. Thank you. When you were drawing, or rather, marking in the photograph the classrooms in which you were, 1, 2, and 3, you said for the transcript that there were about 200 prisoners in the classroom where you were; is that correct?

A. Yes. I say that the classroom was big enough for about 200 people. I cannot say with any certainty whether there were 190 or 210, but around 200.

Q. You also said that there were three classrooms; is that correct?

A. Yes. I stated that there were three classrooms on the upper floor that I was able to see, or rather, which I was able to observe in running past. But I believe that on the storey beneath there may also have been classrooms and there may have been other classrooms on the upper floor too. I'm pretty sure there were.

Q. Well, that's easy to establish. So if we suppose that on the ground floor there were as many classrooms as on the upper floor, which seems logical, does it mean that every classroom was big enough for about 200 people?

A. Yes.

Q. If there was six classrooms, that adds up to 1200 people?

A. But I can repeat, I don't know how many classrooms there were. I suppose that the gymnasium was also used or people may have been brought there earlier. I didn't have time and I was too scared to count the classrooms, but I know that I saw three and I stand by that. ¹³⁹³

Q. How large is -- was that classroom?

A. Well, some question this is. I was in no position to measure the classroom. I wasn't sure whether I would survive, let alone to think of measuring the classroom. It would have been 40 square metres large or 50 at least.

Q. Were there also Serb soldiers in that classroom; and if so, where did they stand?

A. Yes, they would come in all the time and control us.

Q. Was the area next to the door reserved for Serb soldiers?

A. Your Honours, I apologise. Can anything be seen on our screens? Are there our images or am I mistaken? I must have been mistaken. I apologise.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: I don't understand your question. You were asked, were Serb soldiers in that classroom? Can you answer that question?

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can. The Serb soldiers didn't stay in the classroom with us, but they were standing guard at the door and they would come in often demanding money, gold, jewellery. If we had any of those, we had to collect them. They would give us 15 to 20 minutes to do so. Occasionally they would butt in, two or three of them. And around the building and in front of us there were Serb soldiers all the time and we would hear bursts of fire often, and the Serb soldiers were standing in the hallway. I hope I made myself clear enough.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. That was quite clear. ¹³⁹⁴ Mr. Tolimir, please carry on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Q. Witness, you said that you were brought to Kravica on trucks; correct?

A. Yes.

Q. What model of truck was that? Would you be able to recognise it if you were shown a picture?

A. I can't recognise them, but I believe they were military trucks. I think I can tell by the tarpaulins.

Q. Were those the regular military trucks with benches or were they of the kind that you saw when you were a soldier?

A. There were no benches. Whether there had been any previously, I don't know, but they had tight tarpaulins. And -- but the back side wasn't closed with the tarpaulin.

Q. Was it a TAM truck? Were they TAM trucks?

A. I can repeat once more that we were frightened to death and we didn't dare raise our heads. I believe they were military trucks, but whether they were TAMs or any other make, I can't tell.

Q. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber the size of the trucks roughly, how long and how wide they were?

A. Well, if a hundred people would fit into it and some of them were even larger, for 200 people, and they may have been 7 to 8 metres long and 3 metres wide, but I don't know much of -- about trucks.

Q. You said that 119 people were on your truck, that they were ¹³⁹⁵ counted; right?

A. Yes, we were counted while we were still at Kravica, while we were still focused enough.

Q. Did you sit on those trucks?

A. Yes. I sat on the floor and a man was sitting on my lap.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, you will have realised that your next question was not recorded because I stopped you. You were again overlapping, and this is not appropriate. We want to have a good translation and a good transcript. If you continue in that way, that will cause many problems.

We have to break now, the second break for today, and you should focus on the time, Mr. Tolimir, so that we will be able to finish the -- with this witness and your cross-examination quite soon. We adjourn and we resume at 1.00.

--- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

--- On resuming at 1.02 p.m.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Before you continue, Mr. Tolimir, I would like to raise one confusion which occurred in the transcript on page 65, line 20. There is mentioned a document 2D50. In fact it should be page 2.950 of the transcript of the previous trial. The same occurred in -- on page 66, line 14, instead of 2D52, it should be 2.952. That is only just for the sake of the transcript.

Mr. Tolimir, please continue your cross-examination.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation] ¹³⁹⁶

Q. To keep up the continuity of what we were talking about before the break, could we please show the witness the statement that he gave to the OTP. The reference is D --

THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D82, page 5 of the Serbian version, the last-but-one paragraph; and page 5 in the English version, the last paragraph on that page.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: It will not be broadcasted outside of the courtroom.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On page 5 of the Serbian version we see the last paragraph, which I would like to read out: "They started to put us on trucks and we were driven toward Kravica. I again saw five or six trucks. The men on my truck counted 119 of us. When we reached Konjevic Polje, I saw that we were turning toward Kravica. We arrived in the evening, around 1700 or 1730 hours, on the 13th of July. The Serbs told us we were in Kravica. I knew Kravica well. My truck parked on the road in front of a supermarket. Two trucks parked behind the truck on which I was and one or two in front. The Serbs asked who was taking part in the take-over of Kravica when it fell under BiH control."

End of quote from page 5 of the witness's statement to the OTP.

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Q. Here's my question: Were all these trucks the same model as the one on which you were?

A. I can say with certainty that the two that I was able to see ¹³⁹⁷ behind mine were the same; and the others that I saw, the two or three, at Nova Kasaba, I'm not sure. But these two were the same and they came to Zvornik.

Q. So there were five trucks in all in Kravica, right, two behind yours and two in front of yours?

A. I can repeat that I was able to see two behind mine, and the other two I saw when we were put on the trucks at Nova Kasaba.

Q. Let me repeat to you the last sentence from that paragraph: "Two trucks parked behind my truck and one or two in front of it."

Is that correct or not?

A. It is correct that there were two trucks behind me.

Q. And is it also correct that two were in front?

A. I cannot state that with certainty, but we heard screams at night when they were taking people away and killing them and slaughtering them. So I suppose that there must have been other trucks in front.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Tolimir, you didn't pause again, and let me tell you your quotation was not correct. In the statement it is said one or two parked in front. Your quotation was different. Please carry on.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I would just like the witness to say whether at Kravica he saw five trucks, as we see in this statement.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I personally saw three trucks, and there may have been others further ahead, I'm not sure. ¹³⁹⁸

MR. TOLIMIR: [Interpretation]

Q. Were you able to see trucks when you got off them from Kravica to the place of the execution?

A. Yes, I was able to see them -- I was able to see trucks in Zvornik, in front of the school, three trucks. Whether there were more, I don't know.

Q. Thank you. If there were three trucks, could 2.000 or 3.000 people fit in three trucks?

A. Let me repeat. I wasn't able to count the trucks nor what was on them. I gave an estimate of the number of dead bodies at the execution site.

Q. Please explain to the Trial Chamber the basis for your estimate, how you -- how did you arrive at your conclusion?

A. Based on the size of the plateau and how many people could fit on it.

Q. Thank you. Could you determine the number of people based on the number of trucks that had arrived? Thank you.

A. Of course, I'm sure that it was possible if you knew how many people were brought to the school during the day, but we don't know how many people were brought and how many trucks arrived at the school.

Q. Thank you. I'm asking you about the part that you saw yourself. Did you see only three trucks and not more? Thank you.

A. I repeat, I saw only three trucks while I was jumping down from my lorry. Let me tell you what state I was in. I'd been in the lorry for 24 hours, my leg hurt, somebody was sitting in my lap, I was at a ¹³⁹⁹ gunpoint all that time. If you had been in my position, would you be able to count the trucks? I saw three.

Q. Thank you very much, sir. I just wanted to hear what you saw and what you heard. Thank you.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the session be closed, please. Can we go into closed session?

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Private session.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Private session, yes, private.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Please wait a moment.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

(Private session)

(14 lines redacted) ¹⁴⁰⁰

(2 pages redacted) ¹⁴⁰²

(12 lines redacted)

(Open session)

THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I would like to thank the witness for the answers provided during his testimony. I would like to thank the OTP for bringing him here. I would like to thank you, and I would like to apologise to the interpreters for overlapping and making their jobs difficult in producing a clear and unambiguous transcript. I have no further questions for this witness. Thank you very much.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you, Mr. Tolimir. I hope very much that this will be a lesson in slowing down for the sake of the interpreters. Mr. Vanderpuye, do you have re-examination?

MR. VANDERPUYE: No, Mr. President, I don't. ¹⁴⁰³

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Judge Nyambe has some questions for you. Questioned by the Court:

JUDGE NYAMBE: If I refer you back to your testimony of this morning, somewhere you state that you were cut off from the column. Can you just explain how you were cut off from the column.

A. Well, it was very simple. When the Serb forces ambushed us at Kamenicko Brdo, as it is known, that was a major ambush, we were broken up into small groups. My relative, or my cousin, was wounded on that occasion and I tried to save his life. And that's why we got separated from the main body of the column, and we remained in that little brook. In the morning we didn't know what to do and where to go. During the night it was very foggy, we were not familiar with the terrain, and since we had seen a lot of dead bodies up there including my brother -- actually, my brother went missing during that ambush, we simply got lost. We were afraid.

We got cut off from the column, and by morning, by the dawn, we had a few wounded and we didn't know where we were and in which direction to take after that brook, after that little thicket. And the Serb shelling started immediately after that. And all that time we could -- were able to observe a white UN APC which was moving from Kravica towards Konjevic Polje and vice versa. And we could hear a voice from the APC calling out to us to surrender, that our safety was guaranteed, that we should not get killed, that we should save our wounded, that we would be exchanged, that they would guarantee our safety, and so on and so forth.

JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you very much for your explanation. Just ¹⁴⁰⁴ another follow-up question. You also testified that there were grenades thrown at the column. Can you just clarify who threw the column [sic] because you also testified that there were some among your column who had grenades. These grenades, were they thrown by people outside the column or people within the column or both?

A. I don't know exactly. There may have been a few people who had hand-grenades and maybe they had thrown them. In any case, we were shelled all that time from Serb positions. They used PATs and PAMs and they fired shells on our lines from the forest. As the crow flies that was about 200 or 300 metres away from the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road. On the left side of the forest through which we were moving, there were a lot of people wounded by the Serbian shelling, by the fire opened from PATs, PAMs, and by the hand-grenades that the Serb soldiers had thrown at the column.

JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you. Just one last question for you. You also stated that when you survived, you survived with one other person, a man younger than you. Do you know what happened to this person? Did you meet up anywhere or did you lose each other somewhere? Can you just clarify for me.

A. Yes, that was a younger person. He was a minor who was maybe 15 or 16 at the time. He was even more seriously wounded than me. In that ditch I took off my T-shirt, I dressed his wounds, and together we pulled out of that ditch. And we walked together through the woods all the time and we crossed over to the free territory on the same day. I still maintain contact with that person. ¹⁴⁰⁵

JUDGE NYAMBE: Thank you for your clarifications.

[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Does any party have follow-up question after these answers? I don't think so.

MR. VANDERPUYE: Sorry, Your Honour, no, I have no follow-up questions. Thank you.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. Mr. Tolimir, do you have any additional question?

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the Trial Chamber please ask the witness whether he knows if that person provided a statement to either the BiH organs or the OTP. Thank you.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I know -- I believe that he did provide a statement to the OTP and that he has testified here at the Tribunal.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much.

THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: First of all, the Chamber and all present in the courtroom would like to thank you that you were able to come to The Hague again and to assist the Chamber to establish the truth and what happened. Thank you very much again, and you are free now to return to your normal activities, and we wish you all the best for your future life. Thank you again --

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- and we go into private session so that you may leave the courtroom without any -- without being recorded outside. ¹⁴⁰⁶ Closed session, yes.

(Closed session)

(5 lines redacted)

(Open session)

THE REGISTRAR: We are back in open session, Your Honours.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Mr. Vanderpuye, thank you for your patience, but we had to wait.

MR. VANDERPUYE: Thank you for your indulgence, Mr. President. I just wanted to -- for the Court's convenience to indicate for the record that the witness -- that the present witness indicated he'd given a prior statement. It is Witness PW-008, it's a 92 bis witness and the statement number is 65 ter number 41, just for the Court's reference and for the Court's convenience.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. That is very helpful. What is the situation and the position of the Prosecution? Is there a next witness? We have exactly 16 minutes left.

MR. VANDERPUYE: The witness number -- I'm sorry, Mr. President. The Witness number is 41. Sorry about that.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you. Mr. Thayer, I can't see you very well behind the column.

MR. THAYER: Good afternoon, Mr. President. ¹⁴⁰⁷ Investigator Blaszczyk is available and we can get some work done in the remaining 15 minutes if the Court pleases.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Yes. Could the witness be brought in, please, just to start.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Good afternoon, sir.

THE WITNESS: [Microphone not activated]

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Would you please read aloud the affirmation which is shown to you on the card now.

THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Thank you very much. Please sit down. We have only a quarter of an hour left in our today's hearings, but we should start with your examination. Mr. Thayer has some questions for you.

MR. THAYER: Thank you, Mr. President.

WITNESS: TOMASZ BLASZCZYK Examination by Mr. Thayer:

Q. Good afternoon, sir.

A. Good afternoon.

Q. Would you please state and spell your name for the record.

A. My name is Tomasz Blaszczyk, B-l-a-s-z-c-z-y-k.

Q. And it's no secret and I take it from all the consonants that you're a native of Poland; is that correct?

A. Yes, I am from Poland. ¹⁴⁰⁸

Q. And you currently work as an investigator for the OTP; is that correct?

A. It's correct.

Q. How long have you been an investigator with the OTP?

A. I have been working for OTP since 2003, January.

Q. And can you give the Trial Chamber just a brief idea of which investigations you've had occasion to work on.

A. Most of the time since I arrived to the ICTY, I've been appointed to the investigation regarding the Srebrenica events. And only few months, in 2005, I've been deployed to one of the Kosovo cases. And later on, in 2006, I returned to Srebrenica investigation team.

Q. And what kind of work, again briefly, did you do before you came to the OTP?

A. Before I came to the OTP, I joined the OTP, I was a police officer back in home, in Poland.

Q. Okay. And what kind of police work did you do there?

A. At the beginning I was uniformed police officer, and then I joined criminal investigation unit in my region, region of Gdansk in Poland.

Q. And in connection with your police work, did you ever have occasion to work or travel to the area we now refer to as the former Yugoslavia or Bosnia?

A. Yes. During my work with the Polish police, I was deployed three times to Bosnia as international police officer and also one time in Croatia or -- this is former Krajina or so-called Krajina in Croatia in ¹⁴⁰⁹ 1992.

Q. And just for the record, you made your debut as the official gap-filler back in the Popovic case and you testified here and there over a period of four days about the topic that you're here today to testify about, that is, the Drina Corps collection; is that correct?

A. It's correct.

Q. And just let me put the dates on the record. It may come up later. Those dates were 2 November, 22 November, 28 November, and 4 December 2007.

And in the Popovic case did you also testify on another topic, that is, the -- what we refer to as the Petrovic video that was taken by a journalist by the name of Zoran Petrovic, Pirocanac?

A. Yes, it's correct. I testified about this Petrovic video in so-called road book regarding Petrovic video.

Q. And this road book that you just referred to is essentially a map-sized book that's designed to assist the Trial Chamber in providing some more detail for the video; is that correct?

A. That's correct, except the maps we had -- we have in this book also some pictures from the various places around Srebrenica, Bratunac, Sandici, and Kravica.

Q. And again just so the record is clear, you're going to come back and testify in this case about that road book as well at a future date; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. Let's talk about this Drina Corps collection of documents, ¹⁴¹⁰ as we've referred to it. When did you yourself first learn that this collection of documents had been located?

A. First time I heard of this collection had been located, it was sometime in the middle of December 2004.

Q. And who first told you about it?

A. I don't know exactly who first told me that, but definitely had to be my team leader or one person from the management.

Q. Okay. And to your knowledge, sir, who in the OTP first became aware that this large volume of documents had been located?

A. As far as I know, the first was informed our management chief of investigation at that time in OTP, I believe, and our -- possible that also our field office investigator in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Q. Okay. And who is that person, sir, and where does that person work in Bosnia?

A. It was Finn Tollefsen, our investigator, former investigator. He doesn't work anymore for OTP, as he was at that time deployed to our field office in Banja Luka.

Q. Now, can you tell the Trial Chamber, as a result of your personal involvement and subsequent investigation that was conducted, can you describe for the Trial Chamber just how this collection came to be located and then how it came to be in the possession of the OTP?

A. I got this information from management later on, from my own review of the papers we received. As far as I know, the collection was located by minister of interior or minister of defence of Republika Srpska. The collection was found in Serbia, in the place ¹⁴¹¹ called Gornji Milanovac, and then it was agreed with Serbian authorities that the collection would be collected by the commission appointed by Republika Srpska authority and taken back to Bosnia. And it happened, it happened on the night of December 2004. Joint commission -- commission, in fact, members of MOD and Ministry of the Interior went to Gornji Milanovac to collect this so-called collection, Drina Corps collection.

The collection first was taken to Banja Luka and located at the premises of Ministry of Interior. The key from the padlocks of this collection, because the paper -- the collection was located in 16 cases, boxes, was kept by the members of Ministry of Defence of Republika Srpska. And later on, on the 13th of December, 2004, meeting was -- took place in our office, field office, in Banja Luka, where it was decided that collection -- that these 15 -- these 16 boxes will be kept at our premises, I mean premises of ICTY, in Banja Luka.

And after that it was agreed that the boxes will be -- the contents of the boxes will be taken to The Hague. And in next few days, in -- it was on the 15th and 16th, the boxes were checked by SFOR, or at the time I think it was EUFOR team, for possible explosive materiel. And after that, the boxes -- the contents of the boxes were repacked to another boxes. And on the 17th of December, 2004, the new boxes were taken to our field office in Zagreb. And at the time on 17th of December, 2004, I was present in Zagreb. The same day, before the boxes arrived to Zagreb, our Zagreb field office, I also arrived to our Zagreb field office. ¹⁴¹² And after initial reviewing of the contents of the boxes, we described to re-pack these boxes again, the contents of these boxes again to another boxes, to 55 boxes. And I made, as I said, I made initial assessment of the content of the boxes. We realised that this is collection of Drina Corps. And after -- after that, the boxes, on the 3rd [Realtime transcript read in error "5th"] of January, 2005, were transported to The Hague and came to The Hague on the 4th of January, 2005, and contents was located in our evidence unit here in The Hague.

Q. [Microphone not activated]

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Mr. Thayer.

MR. THAYER: My apologies.

Q. And once the documents made it into the evidence unit of the OTP, what happened with them then?

A. We organised this collection, the entire documentation, in such way that would be available for everybody in the Tribunal, for each case, for each team, for everybody, in fact. We reviewed the documents again. It was team who did it. And we organised this documentation in this way, that first we divided the entire collection for -- let's say for the units, like Drina Corps, like units subordinated to Drina Corps, like -- like Zvornik Brigade, Bratunac Brigade, Sekovici Brigade, after that by the branch, it means that, for example, the logistic documents, operational documents, security branch documents, and after that, in sequence by date. And of course, after that, the collection was MIF'd by us. It means that we created -- our team created kind of information form for each batch of the documents. And after that, the documents were ¹⁴¹³ stamped by people from the evidence unit and put in the system.

Q. I just wanted to clarify one thing, sir. On our LiveNote at page 94, line 19, it indicates that you testified that the boxes were transported on the 5th of January to The Hague and that they arrived on the 4th of January. Could you just clarify the dates, please, for us so we know exactly what date they left Zagreb and what date they arrived in The Hague, please?

A. The boxes left Zagreb on the 3rd of January, 3 January, 2005.

Q. Okay. What I'd like to do next, sir, is back up and ask you some questions about the background to these documents as you learned about it through your investigation.

MR. THAYER: I think that would probably be better to pick up tomorrow morning, if we could, Mr. President, since that's a new chapter.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: Very well, Mr. Thayer. That concludes the examination, the first part of your examination for today. We have to adjourn. Please be informed that you may not discuss with anybody of either party about the content of your testimony here in the trial --

THE WITNESS: I understand, Your Honour.

JUDGE FLUEGGE: -- during the break. We adjourn now and resume tomorrow morning at 9.00 in this courtroom.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 27th day of

April, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.