IT-03-69 Stanišić & Simatović, Date: 2012 05 30, Hearing Type: ED

¹⁹⁸⁹¹ Wednesday, 30 May 2012

(Open session)

[The accused entered court]

[The witness takes the stand]

--- Upon commencing at 9.23 a.m.

JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.

JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. I first have to apologise for the late start. It's exclusively due to me misjudging the time this morning. When working, I thought it was 8.00, and then it turned out to be 9.00 already. Apologies for that, especially because I'm the one who is now and then criticising the parties for not being precise. I have to improve my own performance in that respect as well.

Apart from that, Mr. Farr, are you ready? By the way, there is one matter, and I think the attention has already been drawn to it by Chambers staff and it has been communicated with Mr. Jordash, that there is D293 MFI'd, which might, in terms of authenticity, might be resolved with this witness.

Mr. Farr, if you're ready, please proceed.

MR. FARR: Thank you, Your Honour.

WITNESS: RADIVOJE MICIC [Resumed] ¹⁹⁸⁹²

[Witness answered through interpreter] Cross-examination by Mr. Farr: [Continued]

Q. Good morning, Mr. Micic.

JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and perhaps I should first do my daily routine. Mr. Micic, you are still bound by the solemn declaration you have given at the beginning of your testimony.

Please proceed.

MR. FARR:

Q. Mr. Micic, you told us yesterday that Radenko Novakovic was one of the employees of the State Security Service who was in Bosnia in late 1995, and that's at transcript page 49 from yesterday. Can you tell us why Radenko Novakovic was in Bosnia in 1995?

A. The main reason for his stay there was the establishment of a stationary intelligence post in the territory of Bijeljina.

Q. And can you tell us approximately what month he was there, to your knowledge?

A. I cannot say exactly how long he was there. I can just say that I probably saw him at the very beginning of the year. I mean the very beginning of 1995, or the end of 1994, because it was cold. I remember what the weather was like.

Q. You saw him in Bosnia at that time, or you saw him in Belgrade at that time?

A. Bosnia. Bosnia, yes. Bijeljina.

MR. FARR: Could we please have Exhibit P2543 on the screen.

Q. And, sir, while this is coming up, I'll just tell you that this ¹⁹⁸⁹³ is an excerpt from a notebook kept by Ratko Mladic, and this particular entry is dated 22 September 1995. Now, if we take a look at this first page, we can see that this entry records a meeting with the organs of the Main Staff of the VRS and the commanders of various units. The meeting occurred in Banja Luka.

MR. FARR: And if we could please have page 4 in both languages, in the middle of the page.

Here on page 4 we can see that General Milovanovic is beginning his briefing. And if we can turn to page 5. If we can turn to the next page of the document in both languages, we'll see that General Milovanovic's briefing continues.

Q. And I'll read now a portion beginning with the words "A team from the Serbian DB."

"A team from the Serbian DB appeared here. Filipovic, Bozovic, as well as Kijac and Kovac, and Krajisnik told us that 3 brigades would come. Bozovic said that the VJ would not and that the RS MUP decided that 1.200 fighters would come, be incorporated into the 1st Krajina Corps, and used like all other units."

The fact that Filipovic and Bozovic came to Bosnia was corroborated by General Milovanovic himself during his testimony in this case.

MR. FARR: And, Your Honours, that's transcript page 15522 to 15527.

Q. Sir, you told us yesterday that you were not aware of members of the DB of Serbia meeting with senior officers of the VRS in the second ¹⁹⁸⁹⁴ half of 1995. Are you able to say why you are not aware of this?

A. I personally was not aware of that because I hadn't been informed about it. I mean, I personally did not have any information available with regard to those matters. Now, what the real reason was for this information not being accessible to me is something I cannot assess either.

Q. Is it fair to say that meeting with General Milovanovic was outside of Mr. Filipovic's regular duties as the deputy head of the 2nd Administration of the Serbian DB?

A. I wouldn't dare claim something like that unequivocally. I really do not know in which capacity Dragan Filipovic as deputy head of the 2nd Administration took part in any kind of discussions of this kind.

MR. FARR: Can we now please have Exhibit P2546 on the screen.

Q. And, sir, this is another entry from one of Ratko Mladic's notebooks. This entry is dated 3 October 1995, and it's entitled "Meeting with Dragan Filipovic aka Fica, Radojica Bozovic." The entry indicates that Filipovic spoke first, and it records him as saying:

"Arkan's men are operating under the control of Pecanac, and in my opinion they're doing a good job."

Now, you told us yesterday that Dragan Filipovic was your immediate superior at this time. Do you know why it would be your immediate superior, the deputy chief of the 2nd Administration of the DB of Serbia, who would be informing Ratko Mladic about the deployment of Arkan's men? ¹⁹⁸⁹⁵

A. Believe me, I cannot even intimate what the reasons were for this kind of activity, and in particular, I do not know who it was that he submitted reports to in that respect, namely that Arkan's men were operating properly. And I don't know what this means, operating properly. I mean, in what sense? Also, the name Pecanac doesn't tell me a thing, absolutely not.

JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Farr, I heard in translation the word "properly" used various times. I do not find that in the text. Could you please seek to verify what exactly the witness is referring to, because it seems that the written translation is either different or ...

MR. FARR:

Q. Sir, as His Honour Judge Orie just indicated, you used the word -- well, what you said, that Arkan's men were operating properly. Can you tell us which portion of the text you were referring to when you referred to Arkan's men operating properly?

A. It's practically the first sentence after the first bullet point. It says "Arkan's men," and there's a reference to Pecanac, and then it is stated that he thinks that they are operating properly. Now, I don't know what sense that he meant that, that they were operating properly.

JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The word "properly" is, of course, not exactly the same as it is translated in writing, doing a good job, and behaving properly is, I would say, not identical, and I suggest to the parties that we have this translation verified.

MR. FARR: We'll do that, Your Honour. Could we now please have 65 ter 6175 on the screen. ¹⁹⁸⁹⁶

Q. Sir, this is a document on the heading of the security department of the Eastern Bosnia Corps Command, and it's dated the 20th of September, 1995. Are you able to recognise the format of this document?

A. I'm not. The format is dispatch format, that's for sure. The State Security Department used a slightly different format at that time, but I assume it is a dispatch. The State Security Department had a marking, DX. That meant that it was extremely urgent, and that seems to be missing here.

Q. During your time in the DB did you have a chance to see military intelligence reports?

A. Military intelligence?

Q. Yes.

A. No. Closer co-operation happened only later, towards the end of 1998 and up until mid-1999. Before that, I did not have an opportunity.

Q. I'd like to read the first few lines of this report starting at the beginning of the first paragraph. It says:

"In the evening hours of 19 September 1995, at a working meeting of the Bijeljina SO, or Municipal Assembly, which was attended among others by Mr. Frenki and Bozovic from the MUP of the Republic of Serbia and Zeljko Raznjatovic, aka Arkan, on one side and Mr. Kozic, the prime minister of RS, Minister Boro Bosic, and organs of the authorities of the Bijeljina region on the other, it was allegedly agreed that Arkan and his unit should take and liberate Teocak."

Sir, are you able to tell us anything about the presence of ¹⁹⁸⁹⁷ Mr. Simatovic and Mr. Bozovic at this meeting on 19 September 1995?

A. I have no knowledge whatsoever about the information presented except for the following: As far as I know, Bozovic was never an employee of the Ministry of the Interior, if we mean the same Bozovic, if we have the same Bozovic in mind.

MR. FARR: Your Honours, could we please move into private session.

JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.

(Private session)

(16 lines redacted) ¹⁹⁸⁹⁸

(6 pages redacted) ¹⁹⁹⁰⁴

(8 lines redacted)

(Open session)

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.

JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

MR. FARR: And can we now please have Exhibit P352 on the screen.

Q. Sir, this is a certificate dated the 4th of January, 1994, and if we can start by zooming in on the initials in the top right corner on the B/C/S version. Sir, here once again we see the initials of Franko Simatovic that you identified for us yesterday; correct?

A. Yes.

MR. FARR: Okay. If we could zoom back out, please.

Q. Now, this document is signed by Milan Radonjic as the deputy commander of the JATD, and I'll just read the beginning of the document. It says:

"Subject: Certificate confirming that Vasilije Mijovic is a member of the ATD unit of the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Serbia."

And now, sir, I want to read something from your testimony ¹⁹⁹⁰⁵ yesterday, and this comes from pages 50 to 51. It starts with my question.

"Q. Did you ever learn anything about a possible professional relationship between a person named Mijovic and Mr. Simatovic? "A. As for the direct relations, whatever we call them, I really cannot qualify them in any way because I didn't have any information as to whether they were professional or something else, especially because I first heard of Mr. Mijovic in the context of that well-known, I know it is well-known here, celebration in Kula in 1997.

"Q. So you had never heard of Mijovic any time before the celebration in Kula in 1997; is that your evidence?

"A. Yes, precisely." Sir, do you maintain that you never heard of Vaso Mijovic until 1997 in light of this document confirming his membership in the JATD?

A. I still maintain that I had no information whatsoever about that person, and the first I learned anything about Mr. Mijovic was at the celebration in 1997.

MR. FARR: Your Honour, could we please move into private session.

JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.

(Private session)

(4 lines redacted) ¹⁹⁹⁰⁶

(11 pages redacted) ¹⁹⁹¹⁷

(15 lines redacted)

(Open session)

--- On resuming at 11.09 a.m.

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.

JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session. Before we continue, I just received one of -- the result of the verification of one of the lines I asked for, and I only read the line which now gives the translation without errors, and I read it to you. The answer to a question yesterday in the accurate translation is:

"I can only repeat what I stated earlier. I would need a lot of ¹⁹⁹¹⁸ time and material to even recall who Tomislav Kovac was. I have no closer or better knowledge. At the time when we first mentioned him, I didn't even know who he was."

Whereas earlier the translation was "when I first met him," but apparently it's a reference to when Mr. Kovac was first mentioned. I thought it good to already inform you about the outcome of the verification. And also I would like to stress how important it sometimes is to seek verification if there is any disputes about what was said or how it was translated.

Please proceed, Mr. Farr. And, Mr. Micic, you've heard that we verified part of an answer you gave yesterday which caused some question marks, but there was a mistake, and we always do that if there's a real problem in translations or what someone has said. Then listening to audio and verifying the accuracy of translation and transcription finally will give us the answer, and in this case a mistake was made and it has now been corrected.

Mr. Farr, please proceed.

MR. FARR: Thank you, Your Honour. I would now like to turn back briefly to Mr. Simatovic's mission to the Krajina in 1991, and if we could please have P2615 on the screen. And if we can have the second page in English and zoom in on the bottom of the first page in B/C/S.

Q. And, sir, just to orient you, this is a statement dated the 7th of May, 1992, by a man named Milenko Sucevic, who at that time was ¹⁹⁹¹⁹ the commander of the communications company of the Main Staff of the Territorial Defence of the RSK.

MR. FARR: And if we could now return to the top of the document in both languages.

Q. I'll start reading at the beginning of this document and we'll see that this statement actually relates to events in 1991. So starting at the beginning, the statement says:

"In April last year, I was holding the post of Chief of Communications in the special units of the Krajina SUP stationed in the Golubic Youth Colony. Late in April, we received four Land Rover vehicles for communication purposes equipped with the Racal radio devices from the Serbian MUP in Belgrade. The equipment of each vehicle also included a trailer with a generator. There were no teletype machines in the vehicles. I took over the vehicles from Dragan Jerenic who was in charge of communications in the Serbian MUP."

Sir, there's been other evidence in this case that at least as of February 1992 Dragan Jerenic was, in fact, a member of the Serbian DB, specifically the 4th Administration.

MR. FARR: And, Your Honours, that's P2626.

Q. Sir, are you familiar with this person Dragan Jerenic?

A. No.

Q. The first two sentences of what I just read indicate that in April of 1991, the special units of the Krajina SUP at Golubic received communications equipment from the Serbian MUP. Were you aware of that?

A. No, although I'm familiar with the Racal radio device, although I ¹⁹⁹²⁰ don't know how to use it, but I know it existed.

Q. Can you confirm that the Racal radio device is a device for two-way communication rather than surveillance?

A. From what I know, it was used solely to maintain communication between two points, but I repeat again, I never used it personally.

Q. Skipping down a couple of lines, I'll --

JUDGE ORIE: I'll just ask you and the other parties whether this last answer can be understood as affirmative. Surveillance is catching something from the air or receiving it, whereas two-way communication is sending, receiving, and then sending back. That's how I understand it. And what the witness says is a -- the way in which it was used, which I understand is affirmative of what Mr. Farr has asked the witness. If the parties agree, then --

MR. JORDASH: I can see no reason to disagree with that.

JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I see Mr. Bakrac also nod.

Please proceed, Mr. Farr.

MR. FARR:

Q. Skipping down a couple of lines, I'll start reading with the words "After approximately two months."

"After approximately two months, there was a need for Land Rover vehicles, and pursuant to an order by Frenk (the chief representative of the Serbian MUP), I dismantled the entire equipment from two of the vehicles and moved them to two Lada Niva vehicles which we had taken over from the Elektrodistribucija Knin and ZTP Knin companies pursuant to an ¹⁹⁹²¹ order signed by Milan Martic. The emptied Land Rovers were used to tow mortars and transport the crews in the area of Velika Glava." Sir, our position is that this document shows that

Franko Simatovic was doing more in the Krajina than just conducting surveillance against Captain Dragan. In fact, he was co-operating with the special units of the SAO Krajina Police and was co-operating with them closely enough that the chief of communications of the special units of the Krajina SUP was willing to follow Mr. Simatovic's instructions regarding equipment provided by the Serbian MUP. Are you able to comment on that?

A. Concerning your position as stated, I could really say nothing. I couldn't put forward any information or facts. But as far as this document is concerned, it just says that this gentleman, what's his name, acted on the instructions of Frenk --

JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there. Do you know anything about it? Then please tell us. If you do not know about it, then leave it to us to interpret the document unless you have any specific information which would assist us, not start interpreting the document yourself without such additional information.

Please proceed, Mr. Farr. May I then take it that you do not have any -- Witness, you do not have any additional information which would assist us in better understanding the document? It's just that you started interpret it on its face value. Is that --

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You are quite right, Your Honour. ¹⁹⁹²²

JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Farr.

MR. FARR: Your Honour, could we please move into private session.

JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.

(Private session)

(20 lines redacted) ¹⁹⁹²³

(26 pages redacted) ¹⁹⁹⁴⁹

(22 lines redacted)

(Open session)

--- On resuming at 1.05 p.m.

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour. ¹⁹⁹⁵⁰

JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. We should have returned into open session before the break, but --

Then the Prosecution has requested a of Witness Novakovic to be further cross-examined.

Are you ready to further cross-examine, Mr. Weber?

MR. WEBER: Yes, Your Honours.

JUDGE ORIE: Then could the witness be escorted into the courtroom. And perhaps there's no need to repeat that, but at the time, the Chamber decided on a request for protective measures by the Republic of Serbia, and the outcome was that Mr. Novakovic would testify in open court but whenever the questions or the answers would touch upon the identity of a person who acted as a BIA source or the identity of a BIA operative or a location used by the security services, that the parties then, or the witness, would request that we would move in private session. That decision stands and is still valid.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Novakovic.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

JUDGE ORIE: Welcome back in this courtroom. The Prosecution had received some new documentary material, and they would like to ask you some further questions about that. That's the reason why you were recalled as a witness. Thank you very much for coming again to The Hague. And since it's such a long time ago, I'll invite you to again make a solemn declaration of which the text is now handed out to you by the usher. ¹⁹⁹⁵¹

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

WITNESS: RADENKO NOVAKOVIC [Recalled]

[Witness answered through interpreter]

JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Novakovic. Please be seated.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

JUDGE ORIE: You'll now be further cross-examined by Mr. Weber. Mr. Weber is counsel for the Prosecution, and you find him to your right. Please proceed.

Further Cross-examination by Mr. Weber:

Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Novakovic. Thank you for returning to the Tribunal.

A. Good afternoon. Thank you.

MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 1 of 65 ter 6545. The Prosecution requests that this document not be broadcast to the public.

THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel please speak into the microphone for the sake of interpreters. Thank you.

MR. WEBER:

Q. Sir, since your testimony last fall, the Prosecution has acquired your personnel file from BIA. Before you is a decision from your file dated 14 May 1992, which appoints you to the position of high inspector. Directing your attention to the lower left corner, did you sign this decision and acknowledge that you received it on 13 July 1992?

A. Yes. ¹⁹⁹⁵²

Q. At transcript page 13929 of your testimony last fall, you stated: "I was an operative in charge of counter-intelligence." And, "I was in charge of operative work which included applying all tactical operational measures."

As a high inspector, did you have any supervisory responsibilities at the Uzice DB between July 1992 and November 1995?

A. From July 1992 until when? November 1995?

Q. That is correct, sir. That is the time period I'm asking about.

A. I've already said that I spent most of my time at the centre carrying out the duties that you referred to, and then towards the end of 1994 I went outside the Uzice centre because I went on mission until July 1995. So I was at the Uzice centre from time to time. Actually, I only left it from time to time, for example, during the hostage crisis, and then I went to the Krajina from July until August 1995.

Q. Sir, that wasn't exactly my question. I was wondering if your duties and responsibilities that you performed entailed any type of supervisory or managerial work.

A. Well, as an experienced man at that time at the Uzice centre, I also did have some supervisory duties when I talked to some of our employees from other centres that were involved in counter-intelligence. So as an operative, I also had a role to supervise and co-ordinate, because if you understand me correctly, as a line operative who was specifically working on counter-intelligence, I worked on that. That only, that is. Whereas territorial employees who worked as detached employees of the centre work in the field covering all areas including ¹⁹⁹⁵³ counter-intelligence. If their information had to do with the field of counter-intelligence, then I would be made aware of that along the lines of counter-intelligence.

Q. On transcript page 13930, you testified about how your job changed once the former Yugoslavia began to fall apart. You stated: "I was still mainly preoccupied with counter intelligence as my core task. However, on occasion I was used for different purposes as well. Most of the issues we dealt with were part of the work of the 3rd Administration, which was terrorism and extremism."

Is it correct that you also worked closely with the 3rd Administration operatives from the Uzice DB between 1992 and 1995?

A. Absolutely. At the request of the leadership of the centre, I was involved in particular tasks that had to do with extremism and terrorism, but specific tasks. A few times. That is to say, this was not an ongoing task of mine.

MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have Exhibit D445. The Prosecution requests that this document not be broadcast to the public. The Prosecution has a hard copy of this document in court to assist the witness with his evidence. Could the court usher please provide this hard copy to the witness.

Q. Mr. Novakovic, this is a 3rd Administration official record of an interview, dated 31 January 1992. You provided comments on this document in a chart completed last fall. You stated in the chart: "I agree with everything in this document. This person knows the situation very well." You have the document before you, and I understand it's been some ¹⁹⁹⁵⁴ time since you may have seen it. If you need to review the document, please do so. But could you please let us know: Do you recall reviewing this document and making those comments?

A. Yes, I recall reading this document last autumn, and I made those comments.

Q. Please do not say the name of the individual if you know, but do you know the identity of the source in this report?

A. I can guess who the source is in view of the time period, but I'm not sure.

JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, Mr. Weber, I should update the witness again on the -- on the protective measures.

Mr. Novakovic, I don't know whether you remember, but you're testifying mainly in open session, but whenever your answers might touch upon the identity of a source or an operative of the BIA, then you should ask for private session. So that's also the reason why Mr. Weber said "don't mention the name," because we are at this moment in public session. Similar applies -- it similarly applies to any location used by the IBA [sic].

So therefore, if Mr. Weber puts any further questions to you which in answering them would reveal the identity, for example, of this source, he should ask, first of all, but otherwise you should ask for private session.

Please proceed.

MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honours. If we could please have the last page of the document. ¹⁹⁹⁵⁵

Q. Sir, is it correct that you are familiar with the identity of the operative who signed this report?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know if this operative is still an active member of BIA?

A. No. He was retired before I was.

Q. Returning to your comment that you provided in your comment chart, is the person who you referred to as knowing the situation very well the source of the information in this report or the operative who authored the report?

A. When I mention it, I meant, first of all, the operative acting in that area, the man who was the operative officer covering the area bordering on Bosnia-Herzegovina.

MR. WEBER: Your Honours, out of caution, could we please move to private session.

JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.

(Private session)

(9 lines redacted) ¹⁹⁹⁵⁶

(4 pages redacted) ¹⁹⁹⁶⁰

(14 lines redacted)

(Open session)

THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honour.

JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

MR. WEBER:

Q. Could the Prosecution please return to 65 ter 6545, this time page 2 of the B/C/S original and page 3 of the English translation. The Prosecution again requests that the 65 ter number not be shown to the public.

Mr. Novakovic, this is a decision from your personnel file dated 16 January 1995, which is from Jovica Stanisic. Directing your attention again to the lower left-hand corner of this document, does your signature ¹⁹⁹⁶¹ appear in this corner, and did you acknowledge receiving this decision on 26 January 1995?

A. Yes.

Q. According to this decision, Mr. Stanisic augmented your salary by 20 per cent for the month of January 1995. The section entitled "Statement of reasons" indicates you showed above-average engagement and achieved extraordinary results.

Were you assigned outside of the territory of the republic of Serbia at or near the time of this decision?

A. Let me tell you now, looking back and looking at this document, I can tell you exactly what it was about. The date here is 26 January 1995. From the 5th or 6th of November until 15 December 1994, I was assigned to tasks and missions in the Republic of Serbian Krajina. In our service, you got awards only on the basis of your performance and specific results, and before this there was no chance for me to earn an award, because I was not entitled to a special remuneration, only daily allowances for days spent in the Krajina, and this is the solution they -- they found to remunerate me. My head of centre decided to formulate it as above-average performance.

Q. So is your answer, then: Yes, it is correct you were assigned outside the territory of the Republic of Serbia around this time in the Krajina?

A. In the period of November to mid-December 1994, yes.

Q. When you were last here, you were shown and it was admitted a set of per diems that you received from November 1994. Was this decision in ¹⁹⁹⁶² addition to those per diems that you received?

A. Those were the only per diems I received in that period when I was in Krajina.

Q. Yes, but my question --

JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you look at the previous answer of the witness, Mr. Weber, and see ...

MR. WEBER:

Q. I -- Mr. Novakovic, I see that you've described this as an award. Was this an award that was something in addition to the payment of per diems that you received in November 1994?

A. Yes. That was my salary increased by 20 per cent.

JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber, this seems to be perfectly clear what the witness said, "Because I was not entitled to a special remuneration, only daily allowances for days spent in the Krajina, and this is the solution they found to remunerate me." That, in my view, clearly is to be understood is that, apart from the daily allowances, that this was additional remuneration for the services he had -- he had provided in the Krajina. I'm wondering what --

MR. WEBER: If that's clear, then --

JUDGE ORIE: Well, I'm looking at anyone else whether I have a wrong understanding, but -- okay. Then please proceed.

MR. WEBER:

Q. Is it possible that you actually received this award because you were stationed in Bijeljina in late 1994 and 1995?

A. I think you got these periods wrong. You confused the period ¹⁹⁹⁶³ when I was in Bijeljina with the period when I was in Krajina. This relates to the period when I was in the Republic of Serbian Krajina, from November to December, and I was in Bijeljina later, on a different mission.

Q. When were you in Bijeljina?

A. It's not easy, but I'll try. I was in Bijeljina towards the end of 1995. I left for Bijeljina in end 1995, and I stayed there for quite a longer period. I believe it might have been November/December. End of November or early December I left for Bijeljina.

MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 4 of the B/C/S and page 7 of the English translation.

Q. This is a similar decision dated 10 October 1995, also again from Mr. Stanisic. Directing your attention to the lower left corner. Does your signature appear at the bottom of this document, and did you acknowledge --

A. [No interpretation]

Q. -- receiving this decision -- did you receive this decision on 16 October 1995?

A. Yes.

Q. According to this decision, your salary as a member of the Uzice DB centre was again augmented by 20 per cent for the month of October 1995. Do you know why your salary was augmented for this month?

A. Look, in July and August 1995, I was also in Krajina, and I believe my salary was then increased by 50 per cent, and this is the end of the reporting period, the month of October, because we had our extra ¹⁹⁹⁶⁴ part of the salary determined for -- on a quarterly basis. I believe that was the reason for this salary increase. I'm not sure, but that is the period.

Q. Were you assigned outside the territory of the Republic of Serbia at any time during October 1995?

A. Yes.

Q. Where were you stationed?

A. From the 5th or 6th of July, I believe, until the 5th or 6th of August, 1995. That was the time I was in the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

Q. Sir, I asked you about October 1995. I'll repeat my question. Were you assigned outside the territory of the Republic of Serbia during this month, October 1995?

A. In October I was at the Uzice centre, in Uzice.

Q. Could the Prosecution please have page 5 of the B/C/S and page 9 of the English translation.

This is a decision dated 13 February 1996, also from Mr. Stanisic. I would again ask you to look at the signature in the lower left-hand corner and tell us whether or not this is your signature and did you receive this decision on 24 February 1996?

A. Yes, this is my signature. And since I see the date here, it must mean that I received it on this date.

Q. This document states: "Decision. To direct Novakovic, Radenko employee of the Uzice State Security Department of the Ministry of the Interior to the official ¹⁹⁹⁶⁵ duty in Sremska Mitrovica State Security Department starting from the 20th of December, 1995." And, "50 per cent from the salary index prize money is attributed to him."

Sir, I'd like to direct you back to your testimony of last fall. At transcript page 14074, you were asked the following question: "Were you ever assigned to Sremska Mitrovica as a permanent employee between 1996 and 1999?"

You answered: "I was never assigned to Mitrovica, but that area that I went to sometime was directly across from Mitrovica."

Sir, is the location that you were at that was directly across from Mitrovica Bijeljina?

A. Yes.

Q. After seeing this decision, does it correspond in terms of the date of 20th of December with the date you were sent to Bijeljina?

A. It does. I may have gone just before this date, but this decision is true. That is the period when I went there.

JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.

MR. WEBER: Your Honour --

JUDGE ORIE: I'm looking at the clock, and I'm already a bit late.

MR. WEBER: Okay. I understand, Your Honour. I can continue tomorrow.

JUDGE ORIE: You can continue tomorrow, and this would be a suitable moment? ¹⁹⁹⁶⁶

MR. WEBER: Yes.

JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Novakovic, we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning, and everyone is -- that's the 31st of May at 9.00 in this same courtroom, and all parties will make a good effort to conclude your additional testimony tomorrow. That's -- when I'm looking at the other parties, that is understood as well.

Then I again would like to instruct you that you should not speak, Mr. Novakovic, to anyone or to communicate in any other way with anyone about your testimony, whether that's testimony you've given already today or in the fall of last year or still to be given tomorrow. We stand adjourned. And we resume on the 31st of May, 9.00 in the morning, in this same courtroom, II.

[The witness stands down]

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday, the 31st day

of May, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.

. And just so you're clear, Mr. Witness, it's Mr. Stanisic's case that that is exactly why Mr. Simatovic was sent to Knin. Now, just to be clear, your evidence is that you can provide evidence as to why he was sent, but you don't know what he eventually did when in Knin; is that right?

A. To put it simply, I have no direct knowledge, because I was not in Knin, and I already stated what I know.

Q. Did Filipovic speak to you about what he did, having been sent to ¹⁹⁹³³ Knin to observe Dragan? Are you able to say anything about what Filipovic did, having been sent for that mission?

A. If I understood you correctly, both Dragan Filipovic and Franko Simatovic, as far as I know, were sent there on the same task, and that was Daniel Snedden.

Q. And I'm asking you -- we've established you can't say what Mr. Simatovic did, and I'm asking you whether you know anything about what Mr. Filipovic did, having been sent on that mission. Did he stick to that mission or did he go past that mission? Do you know anything about that?

A. More than what I have already stated, I really don't know.

Q. Just a question about your professional roles. We looked at

(13 lines redacted) ¹⁹⁹³⁴

(2 pages redacted) ¹⁹⁹³⁶

(3 lines redacted)

MR. JORDASH:

Q. Let's me just quickly pick up on Vaso Mijovic. Perhaps you've answered this, but let me be sure. Are you able to confirm that he was never formally employed by the DB?

I don't think you received the name. Are you able to confirm that Vaso Mijovic was never formally employed by the DB?

A. That's what I was told at the celebration in Kula in 1997.

Q. And the DB procedure, if he'd been formally employed, would have been that Mr. Stanisic or the chief of the service would have had to sign for that formal employment. Am I correct?

A. Either Mr. Stanisic or a person authorised by him within the State Security Department.

Q. Whereas if he'd been a member of the reserve force or simply associated himself with a member of the DB, there's nothing in the rules which would dictate that Mr. Stanisic would have necessarily had to be aware of that or authorise that; correct?

A. All administration issues and the status issues of anybody working within the department, which includes freelancers or reserve personnel, were in the competency of the then-8th department of the DB.

Q. Thank you.

THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last sentence of his answer. ¹⁹⁹³⁷

MR. JORDASH:

Q. Could you repeat the last sentence of your answer, please.

A. The only competent administration for status issues was the 8th Administration. That means that the signature should have been the signature of the head of this administration, the signature on all similar decisions, and his name I think was Milan Prodanic.

Q. Thank you.

MR. JORDASH: Could we have on the screen, please, 65 ter 5611, e-court page 78 and e-court B/C/S page 78.

Q. What's coming up on the screen, I hope, is a notebook of Mr. Mladic. You saw part of it when my learned friend cross-examined you on events in Banja Luka which had involved Filipovic in 1995. What -- you were shown part of the document which suggested -- or part of the notebook which suggested a particular purpose for Serbian MUP involvement in the events, and I want to ask you about another part of the diary at e-court page 78. Dated, as you can see, 3rd of October, 1995, and there's a meeting, it seems, with Bozovic and Filipovic and Mladic, and Bozovic is quoted to have said:

"I am from General Bozovic's house. We came with a task you are aware of. It was agreed that we would replace the RS police and that they would go to forward defence line."

Do you see that?

A. Yes, in English.

Q. Okay. So you followed me at least?

A. Yes. ¹⁹⁹³⁸

Q. Now, there's been evidence in this courtroom that Serbian MUP police officers were sent to the Banja Luka region in September of 1995. Do you know anything about that?

MR. JORDASH: And that's, Your Honours, D00522, Defence witness.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I understood the question correctly, whether I know anything about the engagement of the public security department of the Ministry of the Interior in Bosnia, I have no knowledge about that.

MR. JORDASH: Well, then you shorten my questions. Thank you very much. No more questions. Thank you.

JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Jordash. Simatovic Defence, any further questions?

MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, please proceed.

MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Re-examination by Mr. Bakrac:

Q. [Interpretation] Witness, I want us to be focussed and brief so that we can finish before the break.

(7 lines redacted) ¹⁹⁹³⁹

(page redacted) ¹⁹⁹⁴⁰

(23 lines redacted)

Q. Mr. Micic, have you had the opportunity to see this document, decision whereby a pistol is awarded? Have you had the opportunity to ¹⁹⁹⁴¹ see this document during the proofing session?

A. Yes. That is the document we discussed.

MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like the Prosecution to confirm that we have announced this document on the 21st of May as a document that may be used with this witness.

JUDGE ORIE: Is there any problem with that? Or ...

MR. FARR: Your Honour, I have no reason to doubt it. I haven't checked Mr. Bakrac's list recently, but I have no reason to doubt his representation.

JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Bakrac.

MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Micic, does this document fall within your personnel file that was provided to the Defence?

A. Personnel file as well as the copy that was provided to me, and that was the basis on which I didn't have to pay any more taxes for this particular weapon.

Q. Was there any reason for you to hide the fact that you've received this weapon as an award?

A. Maybe not everybody will like it, but I'm proud of it. I'm proud of the reasons because of which I received this award.

Q. Does this decision has anything to do with the JATD or JSO?

A. Well, that's precisely why I was surprised by the question. I truly never had any foreknowledge or any indicia that JATD had anything to do with the pistol that I was awarded.

Q. Thank you. ¹⁹⁹⁴²

MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to tender this document.

MR. FARR: No objection, Your Honour.

JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number would be ...

THE REGISTRAR: Document 2D1699 will receive number D1119, Your Honours.

JUDGE ORIE: D1119 is admitted into evidence. No need to have it under seal, Mr. Bakrac, I take it.

MR. BAKRAC: [No interpretation]

JUDGE ORIE: No. Please proceed.

MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]

Q. Mr. Micic, could we take a look now at D900. My learned colleague Mr. Farr asked you a number of questions about the position of Franko Simatovic within the 2nd Administration of the State Security Department. Could you please take a look at this decision dated the 28th of August, 1995, whereby head of the department is changing the salary coefficient for the month of August of 1995 downwards, minus 20 per cent. And it says: Franko Simatovic, employee of the State Security Department as a special advisor at the State Security Department.

Could it be possible that the head of the department does not actually know the workplace, the function of Mr. Franko Simatovic?

A. If we are talking about Franko Simatovic, I think that there was no dilemma that he was employed by Mr. Stanisic. And even if he maybe didn't know details of a particular person, he always has the possibility ¹⁹⁹⁴³ to consult the 8th Administration.

Q. Mr. Micic, did anybody within the State Security Department -- was there a possibility that anybody could work on two jobs at the same moment and have two decisions for that?

A. No.

Q. Thank you, Mr. Micic. Now can we take a look at 65 ter 6175. I'm not quite sure whether it was awarded the P number in the meantime. I apologise for that.

MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Sorry, 6537 is the 65 ter number. I misspoke. 6537 is the 65 ter. P1365 is also the number that it was assigned.

Q. Mr. Micic, this document is also a document that you signed. So we see that this is 1995, and the previous decision is also from 1995. Did this advisor in the State Security Department have an assistant for logistics?

A. No.

Q. Can you tell us why paragraph two, when you say that with the mentioned Dada Jovanovic a certain Mijovic entered into an intimate relationship, and he presents himself as her -- as Franko's logistics assistant? Why did you place that under quotation marks?

A. In my view, that was nonsense, so it was highly likely that Mijovic was lying too, if that Mijovic existed in the first place.

JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps for your information, Mr. Bakrac, the provisional verification of -- of what the witness said about that Mijovic or a certain Mijovic, I read to you the relevant portion of this, ¹⁹⁹⁴⁴ again provisional, but perhaps important for you already to know. The witness, after review of the audio, but there may be some unclarity as to what he said exactly, but the verification leads to the following:

"No. It's precisely what I stated in the document, that she knows about it and that she even I believe had an intimate relationship at the time with that Mijovic who even here held himself out to be Franko's assistant for logistics and also a certain Radonjic, chief of the RDB of the MUP of Serbia, and a certain Radonjic in Petrova Gora." That is as far as the CLSS was able to rehear that portion and to verify the translation.

MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

Q. Sir, Mr. Micic, I have two more documents and perhaps three questions only and then I'll be done. 2420, page number 1, please. Mr. Micic, my learned friend Mr. Farr asked you about some signatures, but what we see up here is ZNRDB. Can you tell us what that means?

A. That that note was sent along the line of hierarchy to the deputy chief of the RDB, and when a circle is placed around it, that means that he was made aware of it. He familiarised himself with it.

Q. Do you know what happens in such cases? Who makes the decision about the possible opening of a file and the registration of this kind of file?

A. In principle, that is the decision of that organisational unit itself. However, with the verification, that's the expression that is ¹⁹⁹⁴⁵ used, of the institution -- or, rather, it is the immediate superior within the hierarchy.

Q. Thank you, Mr. Micic. Tell me - one more question, one more document, and I'll finish on that note - do you have any direct knowledge or did you hear of Franko Simatovic in September and October 1995 of him being in Bijeljina or in the area of Banja Luka and the Banja Luka Krajina?

A. No.

(17 lines redacted) ¹⁹⁹⁴⁶

(3 pages redacted) ¹⁹⁹⁴⁹

(22 lines redacted)

(Open session)

--- On resuming at 1.05 p.m.

THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour. ¹⁹⁹⁵⁰

JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. We should have returned into open session before the break, but --

Then the Prosecution has requested a of Witness Novakovic to be further cross-examined.

Are you ready to further cross-examine, Mr. Weber?

MR. WEBER: Yes, Your Honours.

[The witness entered court]

JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Novakovic.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

WITNESS: RADENKO NOVAKOVIC [Recalled]

[Witness answered through interpreter]

JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Novakovic. Please be seated.

THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

JUDGE ORIE: You'll now be further cross-examined by Mr. Weber. Mr. Weber is counsel for the Prosecution, and you find him to your right. Please proceed.

Further Cross-examination by Mr. Weber:

Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Novakovic. Thank you for returning to the Tribunal.

A. Good afternoon. Thank you.

MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 1 of 65 ter 6545. The Prosecution requests that this document not be broadcast to the public.

THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel please speak into the microphone for the sake of interpreters. Thank you.

MR. WEBER:

A. Yes. ¹⁹⁹⁵²

As a high inspector, did you have any supervisory responsibilities at the Uzice DB between July 1992 and November 1995?

A. From July 1992 until when? November 1995?

Q. That is correct, sir. That is the time period I'm asking about.

Q. Sir, that wasn't exactly my question. I was wondering if your duties and responsibilities that you performed entailed any type of supervisory or managerial work.

Is it correct that you also worked closely with the 3rd Administration operatives from the Uzice DB between 1992 and 1995?

A. Yes, I recall reading this document last autumn, and I made those comments.

Q. Please do not say the name of the individual if you know, but do you know the identity of the source in this report?

A. I can guess who the source is in view of the time period, but I'm not sure.

JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, Mr. Weber, I should update the witness again on the -- on the protective measures.

Please proceed.

MR. WEBER: Thank you, Your Honours. If we could please have the last page of the document. ¹⁹⁹⁵⁵

Q. Sir, is it correct that you are familiar with the identity of the operative who signed this report?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know if this operative is still an active member of BIA?

A. No. He was retired before I was.

A. When I mention it, I meant, first of all, the operative acting in that area, the man who was the operative officer covering the area bordering on Bosnia-Herzegovina.

MR. WEBER: Your Honours, out of caution, could we please move to private session.

JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.

[Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of the Chamber]

THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session, Your Honours.

JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

MR. WEBER:

Q. Sir, just going back to the source of the report, you mentioned that you believed you may know who this individual is. Could you please tell us the name of that individual and the basis that you believe it is this person?

A. The service's source of information are the greatest asset of every service. I can guess that this is most probably Risto Perisic from ¹⁹⁹⁵⁶ Visegrad, who was at that time chief of the SUP. And with your permission, your question was -- your question said that this was a document indicating that this information was made available to the 3rd Administration, dealing with extremism. That was a time when the state was falling apart. All the subject matter covered in this document --

Q. I appreciate that you like to explain. However, if you could please listen to my questions, and you've answered my questions sufficiently so far. If I need to, I will ask you further questions. Returning to the operative, Mihajlo Lukic, did you know this operative prior to 1992?

A. Yes.

Q. For how long did you know him prior to 1992?

A. From the time he joined the department and the Uzice centre. I didn't know him before that.

Q. Do you know the year that that occurred?

A. I joined on the 1st of February, 1977, and he came later, but I can't remember exactly when. I was with the service from the start, and he had previously been employed somewhere in the industry or business. I can't -- can't remember.

Q. Do you know approximately when?

A. You know, this was over 30 years ago. It could be 1978 or 1979. 1979. I don't know. Or maybe 1977. I can't say with any certainty.

Q. Sir, I understand the passage of time. Do I understand you correctly that you knew Mihajlo Lukic for quite some time before 1992? ¹⁹⁹⁵⁷

A. We had been working in the service for more than ten years together by that time. I knew him very well. And I still do.

Q. Were you familiar with his activities between 1992 and 1995 based on your position at the Uzice DB centre?

A. I was. Mihajlo Lukic was a territorial officer based in Bajina Basta. He covered that area bordering on Bosnia-Herzegovina on all lines of work that the Uzice centre was working on.

Q. Is Mihajlo Lukic related to either Milan Lukic or Sredoje Lukic?

A. As far as I know, he is a distant relative of theirs, three or four times removed. It's a very large family, the Lukics.

Q. How do you know this?

A. I know because the papers wrote about it later. In fact, I even asked him once myself. He said, Yes, I'm a distant relative. But when you say that in our language, "distant relative," that means four or five times removed.

Q. At transcript page 14034 of your earlier testimony, you discussed

(2 lines redacted) to Banja Luka as part of your team. When did you go to Banja Luka with Mihajlo Lukic?

A. I think it was in 1996.

Q. How long did you work with Mihajlo Lukic in this assignment?

A. He worked with me on that assignment in 1996, 1997, in the area of Banja Luka.

MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 5 of ¹⁹⁹⁵⁸ Exhibit D744 for the witness. This exhibit contains a set of still photographs from a video admitted as P1592.

If we could please have the photo enlarged.

Q. Mr. Novakovic, I'd like to direct your attention to the individual in the camouflage uniform on the right side of this image, the man standing behind the open hand in the photo. Is it correct that this individual is Mihajlo Lukic?

A. I couldn't say with any certainty that it's him. It looks like him, but I'm not sure. I can't be positive.

Q. Would it assist you to see the video of this?

A. Let me see.

MR. WEBER: Your Honour -- Your Honour, the Prosecution will prepare that for tomorrow, and we will continue at this time.

JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, whether it would assist the witness, he would know once he has seen it, isn't it?

MR. WEBER: Right.

JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Therefore, please proceed.

MR. WEBER:

Q. At transcript pages 14042 to -43 of your earlier testimony, you were asked about the situation in Bajina Basta, in Skelani in 1993 and whether the situation was of special interest to you in the service. You stated:

"Absolutely. That was a direct threat on the territory which was then within the catchment area of our centre, and I believe that the leadership of the service was informed about the situation on the ¹⁹⁹⁵⁹ ground."

What did you see or hear in 1993 which made you believe that the leadership of the service was informed and concerned about this situation?

A. As far as I remember, and I can't say the exact date, it was a long time ago, but towards the end of 1993, I think there was an attack on the bridge in Skelani, a border bridge between Bajina Basta and Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is to say, between Serbia and Bosnia-Herzegovina, which was a direct attack practically on the territory of Serbia.

I believe even one shell landed in the centre of Bajina Basta during that attack. That confirmed the threat to the population of Bajina Basta and the centre for us in the intelligence centre, because there had been border incidents.

Q. How is it that you know that the leadership of the service was concerned with these events?

A. Not only the leadership of the service, but the leadership of the entire state was very concerned, because it was the beginning of the war in Bosnia and Herzegovina when loads of people started flowing in into Serbia. Any large inflow of population from another state into Serbia is already a cause for concern. The service was tasked directly by the state with preserving the security of the country, and we had to display some concern because already at that time there had been incidents, border incidents and other incidents, and you remember we discussed them in 1992 and early 1993. That disrupted the security situation in Serbia, ¹⁹⁹⁶⁰ and the very proximity of the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina raised the state of alert in our service to a higher level, because we were one the organs charged with security.

Q. You further testified when you were last here that a few operatives from the Uzice centre went to assist with the situation. Was Mihajlo Lukic one of these operatives?

A. Mihajlo Lukic was an operative based in Bajina Basta itself. He lived there, he worked there, and he covered the territory that he covered. But as the situation became more and more complex in Bajina Basta and the border belt, I believe additional operatives were sent to him from the Uzice on several occasions because he could not manage the entire workload on his own.

Q. Could we please return to open session.

JUDGE ORIE: We return into open session.

(Open session)

THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honour.

JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

MR. WEBER:

A. Yes.

Were you assigned outside of the territory of the republic of Serbia at or near the time of this decision?

Q. So is your answer, then: Yes, it is correct you were assigned outside the territory of the Republic of Serbia around this time in the Krajina?

A. In the period of November to mid-December 1994, yes.

Q. When you were last here, you were shown and it was admitted a set of per diems that you received from November 1994. Was this decision in ¹⁹⁹⁶² addition to those per diems that you received?

A. Those were the only per diems I received in that period when I was in Krajina.

Q. Yes, but my question --

JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you look at the previous answer of the witness, Mr. Weber, and see ...

MR. WEBER:

Q. I -- Mr. Novakovic, I see that you've described this as an award. Was this an award that was something in addition to the payment of per diems that you received in November 1994?

A. Yes. That was my salary increased by 20 per cent.

MR. WEBER: If that's clear, then --

JUDGE ORIE: Well, I'm looking at anyone else whether I have a wrong understanding, but -- okay. Then please proceed.

MR. WEBER:

Q. Is it possible that you actually received this award because you were stationed in Bijeljina in late 1994 and 1995?

Q. When were you in Bijeljina?

MR. WEBER: Could the Prosecution please have page 4 of the B/C/S and page 7 of the English translation.

A. [No interpretation]

Q. -- receiving this decision -- did you receive this decision on 16 October 1995?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you assigned outside the territory of the Republic of Serbia at any time during October 1995?

A. Yes.

Q. Where were you stationed?

A. From the 5th or 6th of July, I believe, until the 5th or 6th of August, 1995. That was the time I was in the Republic of Serbian Krajina.

Q. Sir, I asked you about October 1995. I'll repeat my question. Were you assigned outside the territory of the Republic of Serbia during this month, October 1995?

A. In October I was at the Uzice centre, in Uzice.

Q. Could the Prosecution please have page 5 of the B/C/S and page 9 of the English translation.

A. Yes, this is my signature. And since I see the date here, it must mean that I received it on this date.

You answered: "I was never assigned to Mitrovica, but that area that I went to sometime was directly across from Mitrovica."

Sir, is the location that you were at that was directly across from Mitrovica Bijeljina?

A. Yes.

Q. After seeing this decision, does it correspond in terms of the date of 20th of December with the date you were sent to Bijeljina?

A. It does. I may have gone just before this date, but this decision is true. That is the period when I went there.

JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.

MR. WEBER: Your Honour --

JUDGE ORIE: I'm looking at the clock, and I'm already a bit late.

MR. WEBER: Okay. I understand, Your Honour. I can continue tomorrow.

JUDGE ORIE: You can continue tomorrow, and this would be a suitable moment? ¹⁹⁹⁶⁶

MR. WEBER: Yes.

[The witness stands down]

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday, the 31st day

of May, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.