16121 Wednesday, 18 January 2012
[The accused entered court]
--- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone. Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Judge Gwaunza is, for reasons as mentioned in Rule 15 bis, unable to continue sitting in this case, and this will last only during a very short duration, that is, today. And Judge Picard and myself, we have -- we are satisfied that it's in the interests of justice to continue sitting, and therefore we order that the hearing of the case continue in the absence of Judge Gwaunza.
We are apparently in private session at this moment?
[Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
JUDGE ORIE: No, we are in open session. We turn into private session.
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THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
[The witness takes the stand]
JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Dimitrijevic. I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given yesterday that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Mr. Bakrac will now continue his examination. Mr. Bakrac, you may proceed.
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
WITNESS: JOVAN DIMITRIJEVIC [Resumed]
[Witness answered through interpreter] 16131 Examination by Mr. Bakrac: [Continued]
Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Dimitrijevic. Let us try and look at a video-clip that was not played with the sound yesterday. That is 29D -- 2D977.1.
THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Unfortunately we are attacking with few forces. We are not going to be able to capture all of them. They will all flee to the Borovo [indiscernible]. I will flee there. Some will flee to Vukovar. After that, other forces are doing that, and of course we will find them there. According to that, in the combat, kill everybody. No mercy. They will not show mercy to you. Remember two of our soldiers who were captured alive in Lasovo and mutilated. And think about that the whole time of the combat, meaning it cannot happen again that one of our men is captured. Do you understand? Second thing, to the enemy who is shooting towards you today, show no mercy. This is something that needs to be clear. Those who surrender have to be captured of course."
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
Q. Mr. Dimitrijevic, what we saw at the end was that those who surrender should be captured. You were in Erdut at the time. Do you know whether there were any prisoners of war, and what happened to them? What was done to them?
A. I told you yesterday that there hadn't been any large-scale activities while I was in Erdut. However, there was combat, there were prisoners, and all those prisoners were handed over to the JNA, to the 16132 Novi Sad Corps command.
Q. Did you have any capacities to keep prisoners of war in the training centre?
A. No. We didn't have a detention unit. We could not keep any prisoners in the centre. We did not have such accommodation capacities.
Q. I have another video-clip and I would then end with that. 2D975.1. This was disclosed by the Prosecutor. The time is 1 hour, 33 minutes, and 31 seconds, to 1.34.24.
Mr. Dimitrijevic, while we are waiting for the clip to be played, tell me: Do you know, after the operation in Bijeljina and thereafter in Zvornik, where did the Serb volunteers go to?
A. They returned to Erdut.
Q. Let us look at the video-clip if the booths have had the time to find the transcript. I believe that they are signalling me that they did.
THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "And what happened afterwards with your unit?
"Well, after that, our unit -- we were stationed in Erdut. We controlled Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem. We held those borders. We held that territory. We were a unit for anti-terrorist and anti-sabotage activities, and we apprehended saboteurs who had been infiltrated into Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem from the Ustasha side. I think that we were -- we kept that peace, that semblance of peace, which lasts to this day. Now with UNPROFOR's mediation. But we 16133 kept -- then we were the Krajina Police, all of us, because the Vance-Owen Plan came in then and we all joined the Krajina Police. I don't think that we disappointed the people anywhere. We fought like men. And what is most important, we are ready to do that again."
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
Q. Mr. Dimitrijevic, we have just heard Arkan who says that after Bijeljina they returned to Erdut, and immediately after the Vance-Owen Plan came in they became the Krajina Police. You spoke about registration plates yesterday. When did you receive the Krajina Police registration plates?
A. I can't remember the date. I can't even remember the period. I only know that that was after that political decision and the implementation of the Vance-Owen Plan. That would have been the beginning or mid-1992, but I'm not sure. In any case, after that document, that international document, was adopted, we applied the instructions from the document and we all became the Krajina Police.
Q. Did the uniform change as well?
A. Yes. We received blue uniforms that, if not identical, at least they were similar to the uniforms of the Serbian police. They were very similar. I'm not sure about the pattern, but the colour was the same.
Q. You say "we received those uniforms." Who from?
A. From the TO, from the Territorial Defence. I don't know who issued the order and how, but in any case we all ended up in blue uniforms.
Q. When you say the TO, do you mean the TO of Slavonia and Baranja? 16134
A. Yes, Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.
Q. You mentioned the minister of defence yesterday. Did he play a part in the transformation of your troops into the Krajina Police?
A. I suppose so. I suppose that he was the only person who was responsible for that, for the army and the Territorial Defence of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem. They had to start wearing different uniforms, and he was the one who was in charge of implementing that decision.
Q. Thank you, Mr. Dimitrijevic. While you were in Zvornik, yesterday you told us that you went there to pick up the bodies of the two fallen soldiers. Do you remember anything that happened on the day when you were there, something out of the ordinary?
A. Yes, I remember. As I told you yesterday, I had spent almost an entire day waiting for the transport permit. I had the time to sit down with people and to socialise with them. Something out of the ordinary happened, something that was not common practice, something that was actually strictly forbidden, and that was the receipt of volunteers in a combat area. A person appeared as a volunteer on that very day when I was there, and he conveyed some information to me to the effect that his name was Milorad Ulemek. He came to volunteer as a Serb volunteer guard. He had been captured a day or a couple of days by the Muslims, and then the military leaders from Belgrade intervened and he was released. He came to the JNA. He wanted to join the JNA, but he didn't like it there. He didn't like the attitude they showed towards him, the attitude towards combat. He had different expectations and he had heard stories about 16135 how -- some good stories, and later on I had to check all those allegations. And that was the reason why he came to volunteer in the area of combat when we no longer receive volunteers, because we did not have any orders from Arkan to do that. On that day he did not receive weapons. He was not issued with any weapons. He just stayed there for a few hours until we decided what to do with him.
Q. I apologise for interrupting you here. When you say "on that day," was that after the end of combat in Zvornik?
A. Yes. It was after the end of combat, since I went to pick up the bodies, and that's the day on which all those things took place. It took up some time. I waited on those papers in the municipality. I had this conversation with him. These two bodies were a matter of priority for me. Naturally I had them transported to Belgrade. I took them to Captain Nikolic at the military and medical academy. We had communications in the territory of Serbia. I reported to the commander and said I would check the allegations of the volunteer who had reported in Zvornik. I went to his house, since he gave me his address of residence in Belgrade --
JUDGE ORIE: Could I stop you for a second. You tell us a long story in which allegations are mentioned several times, but you have not explained what the allegations were about. What were the allegations brought against Milorad Ulemek? Apparently, because that's what I understand. You have not explained yet what these allegations were. What was he alleged to have done?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps we have 16136 misunderstand each other. When I say "allegations" -- well, there was a personal file where he stated, in fact, his name, his address, his date of birth, his educational background, the name of his mother and father. So this was information provided. He stated how he had arrived at that position. So there were these personal details that concerned him. And while I was in Zvornik I checked this information, in fact. I asked him about it.
So it was a routine check-up to see whether this individual who had reported to me without any ID was, in fact, the person I was speaking to.
JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's -- so you checked on the identity of a person, Milorad Ulemek, who arrived as a volunteer and who did not want to join the JNA at this time. Okay, that's -- let's please continue, then. We'll hear what was so special and -- about this event. Please proceed.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could we see 2D981, please.
Q. Very briefly, Mr. Dimitrijevic, what did you do in order to check the information provided by Mr. Ulemek?
A. I went to the address provided and determine that he lived there, he was born there. I met his parents there and they confirmed his place and date of birth, and so on and so forth. Certain personal information was confirmed by them, and this showed that the individual who had provided me with this information had been speaking the truth.
Q. What later happened to that individual? Was this individual 16137 taken into the guards? Who authorised this and where did he report to if that was the case?
A. Having checked the information, I informed Zeljko Raznatovic. He said that that was fine. He authorised the entry of this individual into the Serbian Volunteer Guards unit and he went together with the troops to Erdut. That's when the troops left to Zvornik. And soon after, he became a training instructor, given his experience and the fact that he had been a member of the Foreign Legion.
Q. [Microphone not activated]
THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
Q. Mr. Dimitrijevic, could you please have a look at the personal file. It says the first educational -- or, rather, training centre in Erdut. Are you familiar with this?
A. Yes, I am. Since I saw this record, after the fall of Vukovar in November no such records were made. We had difficulties when it came to identifying those who had been killed. One of the reasons was that I had a similar personal record while I was in the JNA, and since I had that experience I was able to make such forms for personal records on each and every member.
Q. Did Milorad Ulemek fill in this kind of record, when you say that he provided information that you went to check?
A. But when I went to Erdut, the information was only on a piece of paper. It was subsequently transformed into a personal record on such a form. 16138
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, at this point in time I would request that 2D981 be admitted into evidence. And I failed to ask for 2D977, the previous video-clip, also be admitted into evidence. So that would be 2D977.1.
JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus.
MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honour. With respect to this document, can we please have information as to provenance.
Is this something you obtained from the witness? Or who gave this to you?
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yes, the witness had this record, brought it with him. The witness had a copy that was left to him.
MS. MARCUS: No objections, Your Honour, to that document, then. And with respect to 2D977.1, we request that this be MFI'd along with the other videos that we were MFI-ing from that collection yesterday, please.
JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, first the video previously played.
THE REGISTRAR: Video 2D977.1 will receive number D645, Your Honours.
JUDGE ORIE: And is marked for identification. Then what we have on our screen now.
THE REGISTRAR: 2D -- document 2D981 will receive number D646, Your Honours.
JUDGE ORIE: And is admitted into evidence. Please proceed. 16139
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
Q. Do you know what sort of position Milorad Ulemek had after he was received and went to Erdut with the SDG? What sort of position did he have and what duties did he perform?
A. As I have said, he went to Erdut as a guard. But given his capabilities and his experience that he demonstrated, he soon became a training instructor and then he made his way up the ranks as the wartime events unfolded. I think his last rank, the highest rank he obtained, was that of lieutenant-colonel or colonel.
Q. Witness, in the course of our conversation you said that during one period of time, from November -- from August to November 1992, you weren't in the party headquarters, you didn't stay there, you were absent; is that correct?
A. Yes, I was absent. That was --
MS. MARCUS: Excuse me.
JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus.
MS. MARCUS: Sorry for interrupting. "The course of the conversation," are you referring to a proofing or what exactly are you referring to? You said "in the course of our conversation." The question is quite leading. I'd like to know if that came from his testimony; and if so, where? Sorry if I missed something.
JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think it was part of the testimony --
MR. BAKRAC: [No interpretation]
JUDGE ORIE: But perhaps I leave it to you, Mr. Bakrac, to ...
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour -- 16140 I apologise. I apologise to the booths.
Your Honour, when we informed you of the testimony to come, we said that -- when we spoke to Mr. Dimitrijevic, he said he was absent in -- from August to November. And in the course of our proofing here, he gave us the reasons for his absence. Perhaps I should have asked him about this. I'll ask him when he was absent from the Serbian Volunteer Guards in the year 1992 and what were the reasons for his absence.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, from August onwards, or, rather, from July onwards, but in my case from August onwards, there weren't any wartime activities, no combat, there was no need for my presence, in fact. I asked Zeljko Raznatovic to grant me a leave of absence. I was divorced, but I have a daughter from that first marriage. She was very young and I wanted to spend some time with her, since I had been absent for several months. This leave wasn't limited in time. It was said: When I need you, I'll call you. That's what Arkan said and that's what happened. So this leave of mine was from August until November 1992.
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
Q. And in November 1992, why did Arkan ask you to return?
A. Well, the reason was that he had reached an agreement with the people surrounding him, and this agreement was that he should participate in the elections for the republican parliament. He was supposed to be an independent candidate for the Zeljko Raznatovic, Arkan, Group. So he needed my presence in order to organise these things and everything else that related to this move. 16141
Q. For the needs of that campaign at the time, did you engage any volunteers?
A. No. I don't think that was the case at the time. I'm trying to remember, but I don't think so.
Q. After that group of citizens had been formed, did you form a party?
A. But yes only in the extraordinary elections in 1993.
Q. For the needs of that campaign, did you engage any volunteers?
A. Yes. A significant number, in fact. In the party HQ there are about 60 volunteer -- volunteers who performed various kinds of duties there. I can perhaps provide you with the details of their duties.
Q. I'll ask you about that if necessary. Sir, in October and November 1993, did you pay these volunteers, these employed individuals, in the course of that election campaign? Were they well paid if they were paid at all?
A. No. By definition they were volunteers. They had volunteered to help the party. There were no such obligations. They weren't employed in the sense that they had to be present. If they were present there and performed their duties, it was a matter of their own good will.
Q. Witness --
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Could we please move into private session now.
JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we move into private session.
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THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.
JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
Q. Why did Simovic refuse that request for vehicles? Do you know 16176 why that was?
A. Well, the reason was that he didn't have the means of complying with the request at the time. There were many wartime events, and he wasn't in a position to comply with the request, because he didn't have that number of vehicles available, the number of vehicles that Arkan had requested.
Q. You said a moment ago that despite the refusal on this occasion by Simovic, that the co-operation continued and the co-operation was good. How do you know that?
A. I co-operated directly with the army. There were certificates that I issued to members of the Serbian Volunteer Guards so that they could deal with their health problems, needs when it came to weapons. I also dealt with the platoons that were present at burials. So we had various forms of communication mainly with the army. And if General Simovic hadn't been favourable, he would have probably reacted in a different way.
Q. So through 1992 you saw weapons and supplies coming into Arkan's camp directly from the military?
A. That's correct.
Q. And no one else?
A. I apologise. And no one else ... there were others. There was the command of the Territorial Defence of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem.
Q. Did you see weapons and supplies coming into Arkan's camp in 1992 from anyone or any organisation other than the military? 16177
A. I said that yesterday. We were on good terms with the army. We sent requests to address either to the command of the TO of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem or the Ministry of Defence of that entity. Or we sent requests to General Biorcevic, the command of the Novi Sad Corps. These are the only two addresses we used when we requested weapons, ammunition, bombs, grenades, Zoljas, Osas, whatever the warehouse needed.
Q. Thank you.
MR. JORDASH: I note the time --
JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
MR. JORDASH: Sorry.
JUDGE ORIE: -- Jordash, of course, this is the kind of confusion the Chamber wants to avoid. Your question was about what came in, and the answer was about whom they addressed with requests, which is not the same. Now, even if you look at the questions about what came in, there may be some confusion as well.
"Did you see weapons and supplies coming in" directly from the military? The answer was yes. No one else? No one else. And then we developed that.
Of course, we should keep in mind that analytically there are two possibilities, that he saw everything coming in and knows all of that what the source was; the second option is that he had not seen everything coming in. And it might be difficult to know whether you have seen everything, yes or no, because if you have missed something, you may be aware that you missed something, but you also may be unaware that you missed something - you just have not observed that. 16178 That's the kind of questions which are not resolved by your questions and answers, apart from that your last question was about what came in and the answer was not about what came in, but what was requested. I'm just pointing this to you so that you are better aware that an analytical approach of questions and answers leaves quite a bit of questions open. I'm not saying that at the end if you would have dealt with it systematically that they would not still be open, but at least it has not been fully explored. I just want to make you aware of how the members of the Chamber -- the Judges in the Chamber are used to analyse questions and answers.
MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes, I thought I was approaching it systematically, but I'll do --
JUDGE ORIE: Well, on the basis of my observations if you still take that position then I might have to review my analysis. But let's not enter into that debate at this moment and rather take a break. How much time would you need after the break?
MR. JORDASH: I think 15 minutes should -- [overlapping speakers] --
JUDGE ORIE: 15 minutes after the break.
MR. JORDASH: Yes.
JUDGE ORIE: We resume at 25 minutes to 1.00 and then you have another 15 minutes.
--- Recess taken at 12 .06 p.m.
--- On resuming at 12.42 p.m.
JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, the next 15 minutes are yours. 16179
MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
Q. Mr. Witness, you were in charge of logistics at the Erdut camp in 1991. Did that mean all weapons and ammunition would at some point come through you? All weapons and ammunition that was coming to the camp would come through you?
A. Only the paperwork. We had a depot. We had a man who was responsible for the depot. When the equipment arrived, he would send me the papers, the paperwork, to file.
Q. What did the paperwork consist of?
A. When I say "paperwork," I mean a document that lists what was delivered, from whom, who received the delivered goods, who confirmed the receipt of the goods. I kept the archives. I maintained the situation of the stock in the depots. So if anybody asked me at any point in time, I had a record of the stock currently held in the depot.
Q. So there's no one from that camp who would have had a better understanding or better knowledge of who was providing supplies to the camp; is that fair?
A. Yes, nobody knew better. However, the person who was in charge of the depot was also aware of the current situation of the stock in the depot.
Q. Okay. Thank you. And it's right, isn't it, that --
JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one additional question there. The paperwork and the actual situation are two different matters. Would you have the full certainty that whatever arrived in the depot was always accompanied by paperwork that reached your desk? Could there ever 16180 be any discrepancy between the actual situation in the depots or even within the centre but outside the depots and what was on your desk?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Such an error could not have occurred. As we read the morning order, we were told exactly what was being done in Erdut. For example, if one part of the unit was on target practice, the person in charge of the depot was supposed to provide all the necessary ammunition, and that information was also provided to me. So I had daily insight into the situation at the depot. As needed, I would be provided with the information on the goods coming into the depot, and every day I would deduct those things that were taken out of the depot, because every day there was either an action, operation, target practice. There was something going on every day, and the ammo was issued from the depot every day.
JUDGE ORIE: Did you go to the depot yourself to verify whether what you received on paper was in every respect in accordance with what was in the depot? That's my first question.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. I went to the depot every day and I compared the situation on paper with the situation in the depot. The person who was responsible was a man who provided me with the exact information on the current stock. Any error, any mistake, would have been punishable.
JUDGE ORIE: Well, punishable or not -- again, you apparently did not check it yourself, physically, to say: On my list I see 247 hand-grenades. Where are they? Let's count them. That's not what you did. 16181
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no. That would have been too much. And the quantities were huge. It would have been impossible to take the physical stock of all the ordnance day-in/day-out. But we knew approximately -- or not approximately, actually we knew the exact number of crates, the quantity of ordnance, the number of reserve rifles, the number of hand-grenades, Zoljas, Osas. It was impossible to have any discrepancies, either surpluses, however minor, or any minuses, again however minor.
JUDGE ORIE: Now, is there any possibility that, in the centre or perhaps even outside the centre, that stock was there which would not have been accounted for in the paperwork?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. There was no such thing. We had a depot, one depot. We had one person in charge of the stock. He had perhaps four or six volunteers under him because his job was demanding. That was the part of the unit that he was in charge of, and there was just one depot, one place, that received all the ordnance and weapons and from which all the ordnance and weapons were issued.
JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What you're telling is that you were not aware of any other stock outside of the depots because, according to your knowledge, there was only one depot which contained all the ordnance and weapons. That's how I have to understand your answer; is that correct?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not only that I didn't know; there was no other depot save for the one that I was aware of. Yes, you understood my answer absolutely correctly.
JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Jordash. 16182
MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
Q. And the person in charge of the stock, can you remember his name?
A. While I was there, the person was Borivoje Ackov [phoen], also known as Bore Ackov.
Q. Thank you. And if there was a discrepancy when weapons came in or ammunition came in, for example, between what was expected or what was on the paperwork as compared to what physically arrived, was there any obligation on his part to react to that?
A. That was in his job description. For example, if one part of the unit was on a combat mission, a lot more ammunition was given to them. On their return from the operation it was hard to just guess how many rounds were fired. He had to take the reminder back from the troops, enter that quantity into the depot books, and copy me with the new situation.
Q. But what -- let me give you a hypothetical. Biorcevic delivers or says he's going to deliver 20 AK-47s. The paperwork arrives. It says "20," but only ten arrive. Would he have an obligation to react to that; and if so, how would he be expected to react?
A. First of all, such things absolutely didn't happen. We're talking about weapons in a combat area. Every bullet, every rifle was taken stock of. There were no such errors, either in the JNA or in the Erdut centre, especially when it comes to rifles and bombs. Our accounting was very pedantic. And if there was -- if there should have been such a case, he should have reacted accordingly. But such things didn't happen. And second of all, we didn't have AK-47s. We had M-70s, 16183 but I'm talking about rifles.
Q. [Previous translation continued] ... and is it the case that if something like that happened he would have been expected to report it to you?
A. Yes, that was his obligation. But I never encountered such a problem during my tour of duty.
Q. Let me stop you, because I'm running out of time. But am I correct that you never saw any deliveries of weapons or ammunition from the Serbian DB during your time in 1991 and 1992 at Erdut?
A. Never. And I know that things like that didn't happen later either.
Q. Am I also right that you do not know Mr. Stanisic? You have no relationship with him professionally or personally. You never have had, have you?
A. I agree with your statement. I've not seen Mr. Stanisic before. This is the first time ever I see Mr. Stanisic. In person, I mean. I saw him on TV and in newspapers of course.
Q. And you've never spoken to him before?
A. No, never.
Q. And that's the same for Simatovic, isn't it?
A. It's not the same for Simatovic. I had an occasion to meet him sometime in 1996 or perhaps the beginning of 1997. Milorad Lukovic - and I already told you that we shared a property of Zombie disco club - called me. He was out of Belgrade and he told me that a colleague of his, a very important person in his job, would be a guest in our disco 16184 club. He wanted me to act as a very hospitable host to him, and I was. And that was that one occasion when I actually met Mr. Simatovic. He was with a large crowd of people on the time -- on that occasion when he came.
Q. Okay. Thank you. Now just very quickly now. Training, how many people do you think were trained in the Erdut centre in 1991 and 1992? Are you able to give us an estimate?
A. Not only in 1991 and 1992, we're also talking about one part of 1993 and one -- and 1994. About three -- 3500 to 4000 people were trained there during that time.
Q. 3.500 to 4.000 people over 1991, 1992, and 1993. And am I correct that this, again, had nothing to do with the DB of Serbia as far as you could see?
A. Up to 1994 and even one part of 1995 there were no contacts. There was no communication with regard to equipment, training, or any such thing with the state security or whatever you called that institution.
Q. There's been evidence in this case, Mr. Witness, that there was a training base at Fruska Gora in 1991 where 50 people were trained over a period of five months. Did your training camp, training this number of people, have anything to do with that training camp?
A. I've never heard of any such thing. This was not part of the Serbian Volunteer Guards or otherwise I would have known about that, but I don't. This is the first time ever I hear about that.
Q. Thank you. Let me take you back to Simovic if I can. 16185
MR. JORDASH: Can we have on the screen, please P1050.
Q. I want to ask you about something that Simovic's secretary, a woman called Glisic, said. I want to ask you about a comment she made in her diary about Simovic and see if you can comment on it and perhaps shed some further light on it.
MR. JORDASH: Could we have page 10 of the English and 14 of the B/C/S. And in terms of the book, you're looking for page 59 of the book. Page 9 -- sorry, page -- let's go over to page 10 of the English and B/C/S page 14.
Q. And Glisic is writing about the relationship between Arkan and Simovic. And if we go to the bottom of the page in the English, where it says:
"Arkan's mischief often made us laugh." If you find that in the B/C/S. And then we'll read on about what Glisic says about a particular TV programme that Arkan appeared on. "Studio B ... was broadcasting a talk about the establishment of a Serbian army. Our General Simovic was to take part together with volunteers from the front. Everything had been arranged in advance with the editor, and Simovic decided to go on air with all of them, to go public and speak about the establishment of a Serbian army, about the need for an organisation of volunteers, about their courage. He wanted to say in public that they enjoyed his support, support of the minister of defence. But just before the broadcast the minister was 'prevented and otherwise occupied.' Somebody was against his going public, although it had been announced that he would take part." 16186 Just reading on, just to cut out some time, I'm interested particularly in this bit:
"We all froze when the moderator asked --"
JUDGE ORIE: Could we move to the next page in B/C/S.
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that the witness does not have the right page in B/C/S.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do. I do.
JUDGE ORIE: I think he had before on all parts that Mr. Jordash read, and I now asked, for the last part, to move to the next page. Please proceed.
MR. JORDASH: "We all froze when the moderator asked Arkan in public who was his Commander-in-Chief.
"There was silence in the office and we all expected Arkan to speak after a short silence and say right there in public 'General Simovic.'
"Patriarch Pavle! "Everybody laughed. It was not serious, it was just his way."
Q. Were you aware of this TV programme? Were you aware of this idea amongst the Ministry of Defence that Arkan regarded Simovic as his boss?
A. I don't remember this show, I'm afraid. I'm not aware of the reasons why this show was aired. But I believe this is a good illustration of the relationship between Arkan and General Simovic. It was a close relationship, as you can see, and it was mutually benevolent.
Q. And finally, we spoke a moment ago about Legija, and Arkan being 16187 upset with Legija about Legija's application to join the State Security Service of Serbia in 1996. Am I correct that -- I know you don't know the reason why Arkan was upset about that, but can we take from what you observed and what you heard and what you saw that you never, throughout your whole time with the Tigers, perceived the Serbian DB to have any special relationship with Arkan, is that a fair -- or any relationship with Arkan from what you saw. Is that fair?
A. Yes, you're right.
Q. No further questions.
MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honour.
Q. Thank you, Mr. Witness.
JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Jordash. Ms. Marcus, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dimitrijevic, you'll now be cross-examined by Ms. Marcus. Ms. Marcus is counsel for the Prosecution. You may proceed.
Cross-examination by Ms. Marcus:
Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Dimitrijevic.
A. Good afternoon.
Q. According to your evidence, you joined the SDG in November of 1991; correct?
Q. So you did not have any affiliation with Arkan or the SDG prior to November 1991; is that correct? 16188
A. That's correct.
Q. You were not an associate of Arkan's prior to November 1991; is that correct?
A. Correct again.
Q. Following your deployment to Erdut, you returned to Belgrade at the end of February or the beginning of March of 1992, where you operated as the chief logistics specialist in the SDG headquarters; is that right?
A. Correct. Correct.
Q. You testified that between August and November 1992 you were on leave spending time with your daughter. Now, from November 1992 until March 1993 you worked for the Party of Serbian Unity. Is that correct?
Q. But in March 1993 Arkan sent you to Pristina, in Kosovo, to manage the football club there. Is this accurate?
A. That is accurate, yes.
Q. Did you volunteer for that or did Arkan send you?
A. My job, which provided me with my livelihood before the war, was to work at the representative office of the Novo Mesto-based Krka. However, my favourite pastime was football because before the war I used to play football, and all that came into the equation leading to my departure for Pristina. And I'm still very much involved with football, even today.
Q. So you only worked for five months at the party headquarters and then you were sent to Pristina; is that correct?
A. Yes, when I returned from my leave. 16189
Q. According to the information we have from the Defence, you were in Pristina only for three or four months, and that was from March to June 1993. What did you do between June 1993 and March 1994 when you were injured in the traffic accident?
A. I apologise. Could you please repeat your question.
Q. Absolutely. And I reiterate that this is information that we received from the Defence team. My question was that you were in Pristina then for only three months, from March till June of 1993. And my question was: What were you doing between June 1993 and March 1994, when you were in a traffic accident?
A. After the end of that year's championship, which was in June, the stint with the Pristina football club was over and I returned to the headquarters of the Serbian Volunteer Guards. My three-month-long absence when I was in Pristina was not a permanent affair. I would be in Pristina for three days and the rest of the week I would be in Belgrade. So it was not a stay in continuity. It was a temporary stay in Pristina. I shared my time between Pristina and Belgrade, so I never interrupted any of my ties with Belgrade. Because the -- my job managing the football club in Pristina was not a full-time affair. I had to attend games and trainings. But I continued communicating with Belgrade very closely. When the championship was over, I returned from Pristina, I returned to Belgrade, and I continued to work as if that short stint had not even happened.
Q. Mr. Dimitrijevic, I encourage you to try to answer my questions as briefly as possible. If I would like further clarification or if the 16190 Chamber would like so, we will certainly ask you for that. Thank you. You testified that in November 1991 you tried to sign up for the JNA but you were rejected due to your age. Is that accurate?
A. That's quite right.
Q. Then, as an alternative, the JNA suggested that you go and volunteer with the SDG; is that your evidence?
Q. The JNA did not tell you that signing up with the SDG would be another way, actually, to be signing up with the JNA, did they?
A. No, they didn't tell me that. And I didn't even think about that, to be frank. When I spoke to an official from my municipality, I was rejected. The person said, "You're too old, this will last for some time, stay at home." I didn't want to. I said, "Where should I go, then?" He said, "Well, go to see Arkan. You'll have order, work, and discipline there if that is where you want to go."
Q. When you signed up with Arkan's SDG, did they not issue you papers on behalf of or as an organ of the JNA, did they?
A. There were no papers of any kind initially when I arrived, not only for me but that was also the case for all other volunteers who had registered. Everything was a matter of volunteering. But after a while this changed. The reason for the change is that individual combatants or volunteers would arrive for two or three days. They'd be there for two or three days or a week, they wouldn't be happy with the conditions, and they would leave the Serbian Volunteer Guards. And as a result it wasn't possible for Arkan to have a trained unit that could operate in the 16191 battle-field. So the HQ of the Serbian Volunteer Guards, we decided that all volunteers who came and reported should first sign a certificate stating that they would stay there for a minimum period of one month.
Q. Yes. This is what you testified to previously. So prior to your arrival and your setting up of the paperwork, there was no paperwork associated with the SDG volunteers. Is that your evidence?
A. In 90 per cent of the cases, yes, I came across some papers but they hadn't been skillfully compiled, not in accordance with the professional norms. So I tried to rectify the situation.
Q. You said yesterday at temporary transcript pages 20 to 21 that your impression was that the SDG was a very serious organisation. And you testified at that same transcript page that the training centre had a military postal code. I have attained your military records from the Serbian Ministry of Defence, and I do not see any entries in your military records indicating that you had any connection with the JNA in 1991 in Erdut. During your time with Arkan's SDG in Erdut in 1991, were you a member of the JNA?
A. We were the Serbian Volunteer Guards attached to the TO of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem, and as such we co-operated with the JNA on the battle-field. We acted together. So I didn't say that we were part of the army or that we had been recorded as part of the army. We were the TO, the 101st Training Centre in Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srijem. I think I explained that yesterday, and I'm repeating it today. We were, quite simply, on very good terms with the JNA when we contacted it in order to obtain various forms of assistance. 16192
JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus, just for the record, your reference to yesterday's page is now 16.059.
MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour. I'm afraid that's going to be a repeating problem because as of the last break I didn't see the permanent transcript page numbers in my e-court. I'm sorry. I do apologise for that.
JUDGE ORIE: Well --
MS. MARCUS: I'll do my best -- obviously for tomorrow I'll be ready with those.
JUDGE ORIE: I have it on my screen now and often it changes during our next-day hearing. So it's just to make life easier for those who come in after us.
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise for interrupting. If Ms. Marcus wants to continue with her examination with regard to the issue of military participation, I would like her to show this extract from the military records that she has referred to if she has it on her.
MS. MARCUS: Your Honours, I'm happy to call it up, or I can simply send it to the Simatovic Defence. I wasn't planning on tendering it. It's a response to an RFA that we got last week. I can send it to you if you want and -- unless the Chamber would like me to show it. That was my last question on that issue.
JUDGE ORIE: At this moment, I think if you first send it to Mr. Bakrac, and then we'll see whether at any later point in time -- although apparently relevant for this witness, I wonder whether it had -- 16193 had not yet been disclosed.
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, to be fair, we have received it. But if my colleague would like to use this document, I thought it might be good to show it to the witness.
JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But apparently Ms. Marcus sees no reason to do that. Of course in the re-examination or further cross everybody can proceed as it deems fit.
MS. MARCUS: Thank you, Your Honour. I don't intend to tender it, but it's available, as we said.
Q. Mr. Dimitrijevic, just so that I'm sure to understand what you said: Your evidence is that the relationship between the SDG and the JNA was, quote, and I'm quoting from today's transcript, page 70, line 6: "Quite simply, on very good terms with the JNA when we contacted it in order to obtain various forms of assistance."
Is that your evidence?
Q. Do I understand your evidence correctly that Arkan's SDG moved about the SBWS without any registration plates on their vehicles, crossed back and forth between the Serbian border with no registration plates but only with SDG emblems on the vehicles between November 1991 and the end of February 1992 while you were stationed in Erdut?
JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, with your leave, could Ms. Marcus tell us where exactly the witness said that they would cross 16194 over into Serbia in those vehicles without registration plates.
JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's not exactly what Ms. Marcus put to the witness.
At the same time, Ms. Marcus, it would be wise that if you asked the witness to confirm your correct understanding of the evidence, that you do not move away from it too much. So as far as border crossing is concerned, if you could give us the relevant -- the licence plates are clear, I think. Two Pajero jeeps, one --
MS. MARCUS: Yes, Your Honours, I have to agree with Mr. Bakrac. The witness did describe some Sombor licence plates and some registration plates. And Mr. Bakrac is correct and I apologise for that --
JUDGE ORIE: [Overlapping speakers] --
MS. MARCUS: I still have page 54, yes, that he asked about the border crossings and it was not the ones with just the stickers. So I do apologise to everyone for that.
JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then please move on.
MS. MARCUS: Yes.
Q. Now, in order to move around the SBWS - I'm leaving out the border part now - with vehicles that just had stickers and no registration plates on them, the SDG must have had the highest level of authorisation from the SBWS authorities in order to secure such freedom of movement; is that accurate?
Q. You testified that the SDG "enjoyed the support of all the institutions in the field. When I say that, I mean the government of 16195 Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem region as well as the military structures, and I mean the JNA."
Now testified about the proximity of the SBWS government to the Erdut SDG training centre and that government representatives would visit the training centre regularly. Is this your evidence?
Q. I'm just going to put a few more selections to you and then ask you a series of questions about that.
You testified that you had "contact in particular with the Territorial Defence command in Western Srem. We would list our needs, and I personally would take that list to Dalj, which is where I would hand over the list of our needs for that day."
And you added: "We were members of the Territorial Defence of Slavonia, Baranja, and Western Srem."
You also testified that Radovan Stojicic, aka Badza, was the TO commander and that he was in the training centre at least five to six times per month. This is your evidence. Is that correct?
MS. MARCUS: Can I refer the Chamber in relation to this to Exhibit P494, page 5; and evidence on the 8th of December, 2010, at transcript page 10030.
Q. Mr. Dimitrijevic, you testified, therefore, that Goran Hadzic was president of the SBWS government at the time you were there, in the fall of 1991, and that he visited and even stayed in the SDG training centre 16196 on a regular almost daily basis. In order to achieve such close co-operation, there were regular meetings between Arkan, Badza, Hadzic, and the military leadership in the SBWS. Would that be correct?
MS. MARCUS: Could I please refer the Chamber to Exhibit P494, pages 5 and 6; as well as the transcript dated 27th of May, 2010, at page 5447.
MR. JORDASH: May I ask the Prosecution, for tomorrow, to give us a list of these transcript references, because tomorrow if we have to examine after the witness -- after the Prosecution, it would be -- expedite things I think.
MS. MARCUS: No problem at all.
JUDGE ORIE: That's appreciated. Please proceed.
Q. The military leadership who you said were having regular meetings with Arkan, Badza, and Hadzic, included Ilija Kojic as minister of defence of SBWS; is that correct?
Q. And you are aware that he was the one who appointed Mrgud as deputy minister of defence?
MS. MARCUS: I refer the Chamber to Exhibits P16 and P1678.
Q. Were you aware, then, at the time that Badza was in charge of the SBWS TO, he was employed by the Serbian MUP? 16197
A. No. I thought he was from the surroundings, since he often appeared and would meet those people whom I saw on a daily basis. So I thought that he was from the area.
Q. So I suppose you were also not aware that at the same time Ilija Kojic served as minister of defence for SBWS, that he was officially employed by the Serbian MUP?
A. I wasn't aware of that.
MS. MARCUS: I refer the Chamber to Exhibits P325 and P1628.
Q. So your evidence is that Arkan and his SDG were in regular communication with and co-ordination with Hadzic, Badza, and Kojic so that all the forces in the area would be working together toward the same goals. Would that be according to your knowledge?
A. Yes. But I wouldn't include Kojic. At those meetings I mostly saw Mrgud Milovanovic a lot more than him. I wasn't present at their meetings when they tried to reach agreements, so I don't know what they agreed on. But that was basically the circle of individuals who, during that period of time, took decisions.
Q. You have explained to us your role as the logistics co-ordinator both in Erdut and later at the SDG headquarters in Belgrade. You must have kept very careful records - in fact, you explained how carefully you kept those records - of the logistics operations to ensure that the books were kept carefully. Would that be accurate?
A. I did all I could to perform my duties to the best of my ability.
Q. Where are those records kept today?
A. I wouldn't know. 16198
Q. Did you keep any of those records yourself for your own personal archive?
A. No. And this personal file that I have provided to the Defence was a file I had on me by chance. I didn't keep anything else and I didn't have the desire to keep anything on me, to tell you the truth.
Q. When you left the SDG, according to the Defence that was in 1996, where were the archives and all the documents stored at the time that you last saw them?
A. In the party HQ. Or, rather, of the Serbian Volunteer Guards Lugice Pravde [as interpreted] 1 is the address.
Q. During the time that you were in charge of logistics in Belgrade in 1992, Vlado Vukotic was in charge of logistics at the SDG training base in Erdut; is that correct?
A. No. It was in 1993. He was a volunteer from Belgrade. We know each other, but I think that was later. It wasn't when I left. He wasn't even in Erdut at the time that I was there. He arrived a lot later.
THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: In his previous answer, the address the witness mentioned was "Ljutice Bogdana."
Q. So in 1992, when you were in Belgrade, who was the corresponding logistics co-ordinate at the SDG centre in Erdut?
A. We didn't have anyone in particular. Various individuals succeeded each other to perform these duties, and they were designated as the centre commander. There wasn't anyone who did the same sort of work 16199 as I did. I covered a variety of duties in the centre, and this was then broken down into three or four directions. So there were several individuals who concerned themselves with these things. They had a centre commander. Predrag Bojovic was there immediately after I left for Belgrade, and I handed over some of my duties. He was a lieutenant-colonel. He was a volunteer from the very first days when the Serbian Volunteer Guards was established.
Q. So in 1992 you were actually operating in both Belgrade and Erdut. Do we understand you correctly?
A. No, in Belgrade. But there were normal communications, because everything that was needed was sent from Belgrade to Erdut. So there was very close communication and it was necessary for there to be such communication, for everything to function smoothly. From Belgrade I communicated with people in Erdut and dealt with the problems that arose in the course of the day, if there were any such problems, of course. But, as I say, there wasn't just one person who was responsible for all those duties, for all the logistics in Erdut who replaced me. I had to deal with three or four individuals who had shared the duties I previously performed in Erdut. So some of them were responsible for volunteers. One of them was responsible for the warehouse. Another was responsible for the food. There was one responsible for car repairs, for everything that had to do with mechanical needs. So these individuals were responsible for these things and I communicated with them from Belgrade, and this all depended on what was needed at the time. But there wasn't just one individual who performed all these duties. While I 16200 was there, however, I did everything myself.
Q. You testified that you were informed a day before the Bijeljina operation of the number of men who were to be involved in that operation. So you were involved, then, in the logistical preparation for the Bijeljina operation; is that your evidence?
A. Yes, to a certain extent. Yesterday I said that Arkan was very proud of the fact that Biljana Plavsic had invited him to participate in this action, and he made this known in front of a number of us who were present at the time. And I was immediately given the task of compiling a list of individuals who would be in a certain sense both in Belgrade and in Erdut. This was done to have a record in case anyone was wounded or killed, and we needed to have such records in both places.
Q. Just so that I understand your answer: You said you were given the task of compiling a list of individuals who would be in a certain sense both in Belgrade and in Erdut. Do you mean the list of individuals who participated in the Bijeljina operation?
A. That's correct.
Q. Were the preparations for the Bijeljina operation done in secret?
A. As far as I know, they weren't. But no one walked the streets crying out about this. It was within the framework of Erdut, the Serbian Volunteers Guard. I received information about the
60 [Realtime transcript read in error "16"] individuals who were supposed to participate. No one told us about how confidential our role and task was to be, if that's what you had in mind. Perhaps the army insisted on such things, but I can't remember that. 16201
JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Marcus, could we seek clarification. Did you talk about 16 or 60 individuals?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 60, Your Honour.
JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Ms. Marcus, I need three minutes at the end of this session. Could you find a moment somewhere in the next two or three minutes to conclude for the day.
MS. MARCUS: I think, Your Honour, just with one more question it would be best then.
Q. Were you in Bijeljina before, during, or after that operation?
A. After the operation.
MS. MARCUS: I think I'll pause there for the day, Your Honour.
JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Ms. Marcus. Mr. Dimitrijevic, we'll conclude for the day. We'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.00 in the morning.
Ms. Marcus, could you give us an indication already as the time you'd need tomorrow?
MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, I'm going to ask for the full time which we noticed which was three hours. I've probably used about 45 minutes. So with your leave I would -- I would use the two hours and 15 minutes approximately that remain.
JUDGE ORIE: Well, we'll see whether there's any chance that we could conclude your testimony tomorrow. We'll try to do our utmost best and so will the parties too.
I again instruct you that you should not speak with anyone or 16202 communicate in any way about your testimony, whether testimony you gave yesterday and today or testimony still to be given tomorrow. I further remind you of the other instructions I gave to you earlier this morning. Then could the usher escort the witness out of the courtroom.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
[The witness stands down]
MS. MARCUS: Your Honour, perhaps I could just inform the Chamber of one thing while the witness is going out. This was in response to Mr. Bakrac's question about Exhibit 2D901. We have not tendered that. There was e-mail communication from us on the 16th of November, 2011, and we repeated our position in court on the 21st of November, 2011, at page 15037, generally that our position is that we oppose document -- redacted documents being admitted but in this particular instance, due to the specific contents and the redactions that are contained therein, we do not oppose its admission, so -- in redacted form, if the Chamber sees fit. So we said we did not have any position against admission, but we didn't actually tender the document.
JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, perhaps I could correct my earlier mistake now. Perhaps this should be evidence that is under seal.
JUDGE ORIE: You're talking about numbers and sources which I not immediately can match with. Is there anything at this moment, Mr. Bakrac, you think we should do in order to ...
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. There's a name 16203 here. I'm not sure whether one can conclude that it concerns the witness, that it relates to the witness, but there is the name of the protected witness there, and that is why I think that this should perhaps be a confidential document.
JUDGE ORIE: But has it been tendered?
MS. MARCUS: It has not been tendered -- [overlapping speakers] --
JUDGE ORIE: If it has not been tendered, then of course confidentiality -- I mean, the Chamber can rule on protective measures for exhibits that are admitted into evidence. I do see that it is D647 apparently -- oh, that is the number that has been reserved for it. Yes, so it's not yet tendered, but we have reserved the number for it. I leave it to the parties whether they want to tender it, yes or no. But the document itself needs --
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I suggested that it should be admitted into evidence, but Ms. Marcus wanted some time to state her position with regard to the allegations. I think she has now said that she isn't against it, but I suggest that it be filed as a confidential document.
MS. MARCUS: We do not oppose admission. We do agree that it should be under seal. And we request that the Simatovic Defence provide a full translation, because it hasn't been translated yet. But we are familiar with it and we do not oppose admission.
JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then pending a complete translation, D647 is now marked for identification. And once the translation is there, the 16204 full translation, it will be admitted.
That having said, the Chamber still needs an update for the witness we discussed yesterday. I don't know how confidential details are. I also do not know, but it's the witness who was hospitalised and couldn't travel.
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, yesterday we were late coming out of the courtroom. We tried to get the witness on the phone. We tried again this morning. My team has been tasked with checking on the situation, and we can inform you in writing to update you on the witness situation.
JUDGE ORIE: Well, if there's anything -- I mean, we're talking about a witness who was supposed to appear next. So no problem if you send us an e-mail. But do you say: "I have no further information at this very moment"? Then we'll wait for your e-mail messages this afternoon. If, however, you have any information, please share it with the Prosecution and the Chamber.
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Just let me tell you that if the witness is not able to come, we can call DFS-009 next week, because obviously we won't have the time to do it this week. So our next witness D FS-009 can be called to come in next week.
JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it from your answer, where you say "if the witness is not able to come," that you do not know?
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. If -- if --
JUDGE ORIE: That's then the brief answer to my question whether you have any information. Apparently you have no such information which 16205 allows you to say anything about whether he will be able to come. I think we yesterday invited the parties to further see how to use the coming days as efficiently as possible. The Chamber would like to be informed about it, if possible, this afternoon.
MR. GROOME: Your Honour, I can tell you that the Prosecution's position hasn't changed. But I have spoken with Mr. Jordash and the witness that we talked about has testified several times. We do not know whether he speaks English, so it likely is that he's going to have to sit down and listen to audio tapes of the six or so trials that he testified in. So I think it's probably not possible for that witness to achieve all of that before next week. The Prosecution will be prepared to cross-examine the next witness. It is very challenging and we may come to the Chamber seeking some additional time if we are unable to complete our preparations, but we will work towards that.
JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber staff -- [overlapping speakers] --
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
JUDGE ORIE: Let me -- the Chamber staff is instructed to communicate with the parties this afternoon to see where we are and what exactly is within the possibilities and what is not within the possibilities. I would rather not spend further time on it at this moment in court, unless there is a matter which you say we should know before we adjourn. There is not.
Then we adjourn. And we'll resume tomorrow, Thursday, the 19th of January, 9.00, in this same courtroom, II.
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.48 p.m., 16206 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 19th day of
January, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.