15578 Tuesday, 13 December 2011
[The accused entered court]
[The accused Stanisic not present]
--- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.
JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone in and around the courtroom.
Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is IT-03-69-T, the Prosecutor versus Jovica Stanisic and Franko Simatovic.
JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Mr. Jordash, I was informed that you wanted to raise a few matters. I suggest that we first go through my agenda and to the extent I've not dealt with the matters that you in addition to that have an opportunity to raise any matter.
The first one is the absence of Mr. Stanisic. Mr. Stanisic is not present in court. We have received a -- the paperwork attached to that in which it is confirmed by the nurse that she has observed symptoms which are such that she considers -- they support that Mr. Stanisic will not be in such a condition that he could appear in court. Mr. Jordash, of course the Chamber wonders whether any further details are known, whether it's related to already known symptoms or not, and if you would prefer to go into private session, we would do so.
MR. JORDASH: I -- I don't know any further details or precise symptoms. What I do know is that Mr. Martin spoke to him, and he sounded 15579 extremely weak and disengaged, and with Your Honours' leave, I would ask that a report dealing with the current situation be compelled as soon as possible so that we might know the answers to Your Honour's query.
JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll consider that. Of course we are expecting a report anyhow this Friday from the reporting medical officer, but if there's any other matter, we will see if there is any urgency of receiving any report before Friday.
MR. JORDASH: Yes. I only ask because Mr. Martin -- I didn't speak to him, but Mr. Martin was concerned.
JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. And then the nurse also observed and one of the questions, something about the time the reconvalescence would take and she considered, although, of course, she's not a doctor, but nevertheless the nurse considered that it would take some time. We'll further try to receive relevant information.
MR. JORDASH: Yes. And perhaps I should indicate, Your Honours, that Mr. Stanisic is content with the proceedings continuing.
JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We saw that he has waived his right. That was the second part of my observation. He waived his right to be present in court and has confirmed this in writing.
We will then see how this matter develops. Mr. Jordash, of course the videolink option is always still open even if only passive, if you understand what I mean, to follow the proceedings if he doesn't want to actively participate in it. Not to say that his condition allows him to do that, but just to remind you that that facility is always available. 15580
MR. JORDASH: Certainly. Mr. Martin informs me that he could barely have a conversation with him, so we'll see.
JUDGE ORIE: Then the next item on my agenda, the Chamber allows the Stanisic Defence to call Witnesses DST-071 and DST-081 out of turn. The Simatovic and the Stanisic Defences need to sort out the scheduling of these witnesses among themselves and then inform the Chamber and the Prosecution of course. It's finally the Chamber that will decide whether it approves your agreement, yes or no.
Then the next item. Mr. Groome, the Prosecution indicated last week that it would not be ready to begin cross-examining Witness DFS-014 this week. The Chamber nevertheless suggests that we see how far we can get this week. Might be that we would have to recall the witness after the recess anyhow. And if necessary, of course, the Prosecution can make a request for postponement at the relevant time.
MR. GROOME: Your Honour. Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. And just to add an additional piece of information is that we as yet have to receive translations for the documents that are going to be used with this witness.
JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Bakrac, any idea about the translations?
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, just a moment. Please bear with me.
[Defence counsel confer]
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, everything should be finished today and all the translations are supposed to be uploaded in 15581 the course of the day.
JUDGE ORIE: That may be helpful information for Mr. Groome.
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Although I apologise, Your Honour. I apologise. I may have not reacted in time. If it may be of any assistance to you, we do not object to the Prosecution's request to postpone the cross-examination of that witness.
JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But the Chamber may have other concerns than the Defence may have in this respect.
No further questions on this matter? Then I move on. Mr. Bakrac, I'd like to remind you that some of the documents you intend to use with your first witnesses, and that would include the very first witness, the Republic of Serbia has recently requested protective measures. That was a request dated the 9th of December, which was filed yesterday, the 12th of December, and the parties therefore should ensure that any such documents are provisionally put under seal if marked and that such documents are not to be broadcasted to the public, or if need be, to request private session awaiting a decision on the request by this Chamber. And have the parties --
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I have understood that, and I would like to add that on the 9th of December, on Friday, we received from the State of Serbia unredacted documents which comprise all the documents that we want to use with the first witness. My Case Manager uploaded all those documents on Saturday and Sunday, so now in the system you have both redacted and non-redacted versions of the documents which according to us should be under seal. Those that we wish 15582 to show to the witness, we will request from the Chamber to move into private session.
JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
MR. WEBER: Good afternoon, Your Honours. The Prosecution understands the Chamber's direction. We just want to put on the record that the Prosecution was notified that the unredacted version has just become available immediately before the proceedings today just in court.
JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, of course much depends -- the Chamber has no knowledge of that, what the redactions were about, whether it was just names or whether it were larger portions of the documents, but it's on the record that you received notice only today.
Then the next one, in relation to the Stanisic Defence's anticipated bar table motions, the Chamber cancels the deadlines given earlier in line with the discussion last week that the parties should find other ways to inform the Chamber of the content of that material, and the Chamber expects a report from the parties in this respect by the 13th of January, 2012.
MR. JORDASH: I understand Your Honour's ruling.
JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We're not -- we're not pushing you to keep those deadlines, but, rather, hear from the parties, which would be the best way to present this, along the lines of the discussion last week.
MR. JORDASH: Yes. We'll --
JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you will re-read that.
MR. JORDASH: No. I remember the discussion well, and I've already spoken with Mr. Groome about arranging a meeting, and we're 15583 second, in fact, the first bar table to the Prosecution later today to be the foundation for that discussion, or at least part of the discussion.
JUDGE ORIE: And when such a discussion is ongoing, the Chamber considered it more wise to -- not to push on the deadlines.
MR. JORDASH: Thank you.
JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then although unrelated to the situation of today, Mr. Jordash, which came up after the concerns you expressed last week about various health matters of Mr. Stanisic, questions have been put to the reporting medical officer. He has addressed them in the latest report, and further it is my understanding and the Chamber's understanding that any other issues have been resolved -- resolved between you and OLAD. Is that correctly understood?
MR. JORDASH: Well, I wouldn't totally agree with the latter point. We are in the process of trying to resolve the issues with OLAD. They've sent us the second part of Mr. Stanisic's medical records. They're in Dutch, and I'm having them translated and will then address any other points if any other points arise.
JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But under these circumstances I take it you would agree for the Chamber there's not an immediate necessity for us to follow up on the matter and we leave it for the time being in your hands.
MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, yes. Thank you.
JUDGE ORIE: That's then clear and on the record. Any other matter, because these were the items I would like to raise.
Then is the Simatovic Defence ready to call its first witness, 15584 Mr. Bakrac?
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. The Simatovic Defence would like to call up its first witness, DFS-005. He has not requested any protective measures. His name is
Dejan Lukic [as interpreted].
JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could the witness be escorted into the courtroom.
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, would you leave, I would like to address the Chamber while the witness is being escorted into the courtroom.
JUDGE ORIE: Before you do so, could you -- the way to pronounce the family name is Dejan Lukic or ...
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Lucic. I'm sorry. Lucic. It's a bit complicated. It's a mouthful.
JUDGE ORIE: I may have misunderstood the translation, but I understood it to be pronounced as Lukic, and I always try to pronounce the names of the witnesses correctly.
The matter you'd like to raise, Mr. --
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just wanted to say that before today's session, I had a conference with Mr. Weber, and we agreed that as far as the Prosecution is concerned and when it comes to the basic information on this witness, I can lead the witness in order to save time. Obviously if this is agreeable with the Trial Chamber.
JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber leaves this usually in the hands of the parties. 15585
[The witness entered court]
JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lucic, good afternoon.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, you are required to make a solemn declaration. May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. That's it. The other pages are the other languages, Mr. Lucic. Please be seated.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
WITNESS: DEJAN LUCIC
[Witness answered through interpreter]
JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Lucic, you'll first be examined by Mr. Bakrac. Mr. Bakrac is counsel for Mr. Simatovic.
You may proceed.
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Examination by Mr. Bakrac:
Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Lucic.
A. Good afternoon.
Q. Mr. Lucic, before I start with my examination, I would like to remind you that we speak the same language, which is why I would like you to wait a little after my question for the interpretation to be over and then start answering. This will avoid overlapping and will save us some time which might be otherwise necessary to repeat your answers. So I think you would be best advised to look at the screen in front of you, 15586 and when the interpretation is over, then and only then please start answering.
Q. Mr. Lucic, I will briefly go through your CV, and you will just briefly tell me whether the information is correct or not. Your name is Dejan and your last name is Lucic.
Q. Please wait until I complete all the information and then you will say yes or no. Again I'm trying to save some time. You were born on the 15th November, 1950 in Belgrade. You lived in Svetozar Markovic Street at number 26. You completed your elementary education in the same street. You attended the Aleksa Santic elementary school there. You graduated from secondary school of economics, and then in 1969, you became a student at the school of political sciences and you graduated in 1983. Is all that correct?
Q. In 1969, when you enrolled at the school of political sciences, you also started working as a photographer at "Politika" newspaper; is that correct?
A. Not exactly. I first started working for "Borbin Svet," and that was in 1971, and then after having served in the army, I started working in the newspaper "Zdravo" in 1977. I worked as a photographer, and later on I became a journalist which started as the youth magazine "Zdravo" and then became a political magazine "Intervju".
Q. And the magazine "Intervju" was published by the "Politika" 15587 publishing house; right?
Q. When you graduated in 1983 from the school of political sciences, at that moment you worked as a journalist at "Politika"?
A. Yes. I was a part-time student, and I worked as a journalist all the time.
Q. Mr. Lucic, you have published 13 books as a journalist and a geopolitician, and six of them deal with investigative journalism, two books are about politics, and you also published four fiction novels; right?
Q. Mr. Lucic, is it true that in 1968 you became a member of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia, and why?
A. I was ambitious, and in view of the system as was in place at the time, it was a wise decision not to stick out for the wrong reasons, which is why I became a member of the ruling party so as to be able to find employment in journalism.
Q. When you say the ruling party, do you also mean that that was the only party in existence at the time in the former Yugoslavia?
A. That was the only political party, because the system was a socialist -- or, rather, para-Communist system.
Q. Mr. Lucic, in 1990, in the month of April, you became a member of the Serbian Renewal Movement, which was a very strong opposition party. Did you then abandon your membership in the League of Communists of Yugoslavia, or did it happen even before that? 15588
A. I stopped being a member of the League of Communists as soon as I enrolled at the school of political sciences, because I had realized that the membership in the party could not provide me with the social mobility that I sought. The state that we lived in had a lot of political files, and the stitum [as interpreted] was aware of the fact that I had been born in an anti-Communist family.
Q. Mr. Lucic, in April 1990, you became a member of the Serbian Renewal Movement. Could you please tell us first something about that party. What was its agenda? Just briefly, please.
A. The Serbian Renewal Movement, which was led at the time and is still led by Vuk Draskovic, who is well known in Serbia as a novelist, as a writer, was a party which I perceived as a party that would change the position of the Serbian people in Yugoslavia. The -- the slogan that was very popular in the state under the Communist rule was a weak Serbia, a strong Yugoslavia.
Q. Mr. Lucic, my time is really very limited, which is why I would like to focus on the issues of some significance to me. When you entered or when you became a member of the
Serbian Renewal Movement, which was the strongest opposition party to Milosevic's regime, what was your position in the party?
A. I had already made a name for myself as a journalist and as a novelist, and since I was a native of Belgrade, which means I was a resident of the capital of Yugoslavia, and many generations before me were also residents of Belgrade, I was appointed the president of the initiative board of the SPO or the Serbian Renewal Movement. That was in 15589 April 1990. And then if my memory serves me well, that became official in October of the same year.
Q. In October which year? When you say in October 1990, that's when it became official; right? So in October 1990, what was the official position you held in the SPO?
A. I became president of the Belgrade board of the SPO and already at that time it had about 40.000 members.
Q. For the sake of comparison, do you know what the membership of the Democratic Party was, for example, at the same time, October 1990?
A. The Democratic Party that is ruling our country at this point in time in that period had only 20.000 members in all of Serbia. So my Belgrade board was two times stronger than that.
Q. Mr. Lucic, can you tell us who your closest associates were in the Belgrade board of the SPO?
A. My closest associates were Raka Zivkovic, a lawyer. He comes from a well-known anti-Communist family. Then a US citizen, an ethnic Serb, Milos Prica. He was my vice-president, as well as Raka Zivkovic as well. My political advisor was Aleksandar Pavic. I thought that he was a US citizen too. He had a degree in political science that he had received from the University of Berkeley, and his average grade was 9.7.
Q. Mr. Lucic, now I would just like to ask you for the transcript to give the names once again of your vice-presidents. So Zivkovic?
A. Raka Zivkovic, also Milos Prica.
Q. Thank you. Now it's fine. Mr. Witness, starting from December 1990, I showed you a series of documents starting from December 1990. 15590 That's what I did during our proofing, and these documents all the -- went all the way up to the end of 1991. Isn't that right?
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would now like to move into private session, because I would like to say something by way of comment regarding these documents, and I'd actually like to call up the first document already.
JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
(17 lines redacted) 15591
(26 pages redacted) 15617
(23 lines redacted)
THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour. 15618
JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] May I proceed, Your Honour.
JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
Q. Mr. Lucic, before the break we were saying that Mr. Snedden had warned you about the possibility of repression if you win. Were you aware of any of his business dealings at the time apart from the political party work?
A. I know that he had a plane and that he was making money that way, as he was chartering it to those who were interested.
Q. Do you know when Mr. Snedden, towards the end of 1990, in December to be precise, had some problems with that aeroplane?
A. Yes, he did have problems with unpaid airport taxes, because he did not observe procedure, and he did not pay.
Q. Do you know whether at some point in time his aeroplane was checked and, if so, do you know by who?
A. I think that the airport police or customs checked his plane and that they seized his plane or did not allow it to fly anyway.
Q. From that point of view, did Mr. Snedden address Mr. Pavic [Realtime transcript read in error "Pavkovic"] or you asking you for help?
A. Yes. I directed him to my vice-president, who was Raka Zivkovic, a very well-known lawyer, and I thought that that was a legal problem that would best be solved in that way. I thought that -- that we should help each other out like the Three Musketeers. 15619
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise. There was a mistake with the last name.
Q. I asked whether Mr. Snedden had addressed you or Mr. Pavic and the transcript says "Pavkovic". Did you mean Mr. Pavic?
A. Aleksandar Pavic. Pavkovic is a general.
Q. Mr. Lucic, let us show a document now. 2D407. Actually, let us look at it without broadcasting it to the public, and I'd be interested in paragraph 2.
Please take a look at the last paragraph and tell me whether that was the situation that we discussed a moment ago. So this is what the last paragraph says -- actually, in the previous paragraph the problems that Daniel Snedden has with his plane are referred to, and the plane was searched, and it was seized, and then in the also paragraph it says: "Pavic responded he should be exceptionally careful because this might be some sort of trap and instructed Snedden to turn for help and advice to Dejan Lucic, one of the leaders of the SPO ..." And now I'm going to omit what the text in the parentheses says. Their Honours can see this in the document that we have before us, as can the OTP. And then it says:
"... and to Radomir Zivkovic, the SPO's attorney." Is that what it says? Is that what we discussed a moment ago?
Q. Mr. Lucic, do you know whether Mr. Snedden had any business contacts with some other agencies or some other institutions? If you know about that, could you please tell us. 15620
A. Which institutions do you mean, at home or abroad?
Q. At home, Yugoslavia at the time.
A. As far as I know, he did not have contacts with any institutions, because he was totally irrelevant in the entire political situation. He was a dear associate of mine, Daniel Snedden, but he did not hold any political office and did not have any such contact with anyone. If he did have such contact, that was without me knowing about this. How do I define his character? He's a restless person. He is not someone who belongs to a system. It would be hard to fit him into a system.
Q. Mr. Lucic, do you know whether he had any business communication with other agencies or television?
A. Oh, yes. With Yu Info, Goran Milic, and another radio station. He had co-operation with them. In a way, it was supposed to eliminate the reasons that led to war and also the rising nationalist tensions in the entire region.
Q. When you mentioned Goran Milic, was that TV Yutel that was relying on Ante Markovic, the then prime minister?
A. That's right. And it was supported by other people from Europe and America who tried in that way that ease nationalist tensions.
Q. At one point in time, in the beginning of 1991, did Daniel Snedden travel somewhere? Did he go abroad?
A. Yes. He left totally unannounced with my friend Pavic. They went to Thessaloniki, and then they both got in touch and they said that they basically went as tourists. I thought that the two of them went to 15621 meet with some people in Thessaloniki that had some political influence in Washington. From there I was expecting some kind of support that could have come. Actually, we were expecting it to come in order to deal with this regime that was calling itself a socialist regime, but it was basically Communist, and it was to be gradually removed from the scene. It was quite clear. At that point in time, like in many years throughout our history, America was a country of reason, anti-Communism and democracy for us.
Q. Mr. Lucic, in 1991, in the beginning of 1991, did Mr. Daniel Snedden travel somewhere and, if so, did you know about that?
A. Yes. He travelled to the US. His basic task was to act upon my instructions, and he was supposed to establish more direct communication through his own contacts with those political forces in the United States, primarily in Texas. Actually, this had to do with some congressman. I cannot remember his name right now, but it is mentioned in our documents. This congressman had already taken part in toppling Communist regimes.
Q. Mr. Lucic, we're going to get to that when he returns from the USA.
A. He went on account of some business, to get some aircraft since JAT airways was falling apart even then, he was supposed to start a new airline with the assistance of some Americans.
Q. In January 1991, were you still in the SPO?
A. In January 1991, I was still in the SPO, and later on I left it.
Q. When you left the SPO, were there any ideas there that had to do 15622 with establishing a new party?
A. Yes. We had agreed to establish a new political party that would represent Serb national interests to the West in an articulated, gentlemanly fashion, not like a caricature as was done by other political leaders. We wanted to call that party the Serbian Democratic Union.
Q. When you say that you wanted to call it the Serbian Democratic Union, when you say, "we," who is it that you mean?
A. It has to do with myself. I was supposed to be the leader of that political party, and the people around me were a US citizen, Milos Prica, then Aleksandar Pavic, and our contact person was supposed to be Daniel Snedden, because he had the opportunity to travel and establish contacts in an unhindered way in the United States of America.
Q. Before he travelled to the USA, did you -- did you yourself or you and Mr. Pavic and Mr. Prica, did you give him any instructions? Did you give Mr. Snedden some instructions?
A. I told him to establish contact with political structures in institutions in that country, institutional and non-institutional ones, those that create the foreign policy of the United States. We also had the support of a priest called Djujic who was a political emigre in California and who was Prica's relative. We tried in every way to open this iron gate in terms of America's goodwill towards the Serbs.
Q. Mr. Lucic, let us please look at this now. A moment ago, you spoke about the position of Mr. Snedden vis-a-vis the leadership of the SPO. 2D413.2. Can we have a look at that now, please. Can we see page 2 in B/C/S. 15623
A. What number is that? I'm sorry. I have 12, 11, 13.
Q. It is document number 7 in the table.
A. Thank you.
Q. But please focus on page 2. We are going to look at the last paragraph. So this is another report about the results of applying the measure of intercepts, and it says:
"On the basis of Snedden's positions that he presented to his interlocutors from time to time, we can conclude that he is basically dissatisfied with the positions of the SPO because he says that the leadership of that party are a group of soft people who don't know what they want, but in spite of that, he has large-scale business plans with the SPO."
Does this reflect what Mr. Snedden said to you as well? You spoke about it a moment ago.
A. This was our joint position. I can put it that way. We were a small group - How do I put this? - of people who were at a higher level of political awareness, whereas Snedden was at a lower level, but he was useful because he was streetwise, and this was our joint position.
Q. Mr. Lucic, let us look at the next page now. This report says that Mr. Snedden was planning a trip to America via Munich, New York. He was going to Dallas and Miami. Was that actually the destination of that trip that you were aware of?
A. Yes, that's the destination. That's this meeting with some congressman from Texas, the one that I referred to a moment ago.
Q. Mr. Lucic, we'll come to that document in a minute. While 15624 Mr. Snedden was in America, did you or Mr. Pavic or Mr. Prica have any contacts with him?
A. As far as I can remember, we tried to reach him through his girlfriend to see what was going on. I believe that Prica was also in an America at the time. He visited his parents who were in Chicago, and he spent some time in California with priest Djujic and as far as I can remember we were supposed to send a delegation -- actually, we were supposed to attend that meeting with the people from the political establishment of the USA, with anybody who showed inclination to see us, and Daniel Snedden and Prica were supposed to prepare -- prepare all those meetings for us.
Q. Mr. Lucic, I am going to ask you something. I have a document, but we will see it later. Before he went to America, did Mr. Snedden have any contacts with the Serbs in Croatia?
A. Yes. In Rijeka in Croatia, his wife Jeremica [phoen] was visiting with his relatives and I believe that he was in contact with pilot Ostojic who was in a state of panic just like the other Serbs because of what was going on in Croatia, because nationalism had become the state policy over there, and fear spread among the Serbs. And I believe that he was either a pilot or an officer who had worked in Zemun in the air force command.
Q. You mean the army of Yugoslavia?
THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel and the witness please be asked not to overlap.
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] 15625
Q. Mr. Lucic, can we now look at --
JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, a pause between question and answer, and between answer and question.
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I apologise. I was full of promise for a new life, but to no avail it seems, but I'll do my best.
Q. Mr. Lucic, let's look at 2D418, paragraph 2. This document should not be broadcast. Let's look at the first page of the document, which is a report.
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Actually, for the benefit of the witness, could we please go into private session just for a moment.
JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
(12 lines redacted) 15626
(page redacted) 15627
(20 lines redacted)
THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.
JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
Q. Mr. Lucic, before we come to the moment when Mr. Snedden returned 15628 from America, let us look at another document, 2D416, paragraph 2. This is a non-redacted document. Its translation is under 2D416. It is the translation of the redacted document.
You mentioned an officer from Rijeka in Croatia, and you -- I believe that you said that his family name was Ostojic; is that correct?
Q. Did you -- were you aware of the nature of contacts that Mr. Snedden had with him?
A. I assume that Daniel Snedden tried to establish contacts with the army, especially with the officers who hailed from Croatia and who were interested in organising the Serbian people in order to avoid the repetition of -- in order to avoid the repetition of the genocide that had happened during the Second World War.
Q. Mr. Lucic, I'm going to interrupt you here. I apologise. I want you to focus on important issues. Look at this document. This is an official note on new findings about Daniel Snedden, and it is stated here that he is in contact with a certain Major Ostojic, who is a pilot on JNA aircraft, and he is an employee of the air force and anti-aircraft defence command in Zemun. Is that the person that you referred to?
A. Yes. If I -- if I remember correctly, the commander of the air force was a Croat.
Q. Thank you, Mr. Lucic. And now let's go back to another situation. You said that you tried to get in touch with Mr. Snedden while he was America, that you and Pavic and Prica tried to do the same. Did you manage to contact him? 15629
A. No. As far as I can remember, we didn't.
Q. Do you know that while Mr. Snedden was in America he had contacts with the Serbian diaspora?
A. I'm sure that he had contacts with the Serbian diaspora, because that was the underlying idea, the idea underlying his trip. He was supposed to contact the Serbs who were already there in America, especially those who had some weight and influence.
Q. Witness, please look at Exhibit 2D707, paragraph 2. You said that you tried to secure something via Daniel Snedden and his trip to America. What was it that you tried to secure?
A. We wanted to harness political and financial support for the party that we wanted to create.
Q. Witness, sir, I'm going to read an official note to you. The date is 14 February 1991.
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, in order to avoid going into private session, I would like to say that the document should not be broadcast. I'm going to skip a name for practical reasons.
Q. It says here: "Operative position." It says at the -- and I'm reading from the second paragraph:
"At the meeting, he said that the leaders of the newly founded as yet unregistered party the Serbian Democratic Union, Dejan Lucic and Aleksandar Pavic were intensively trying to resolve the problem of finding financial resources for their political activity. In this respect, Pavic reminded Lucic that the two of them ought to urgently get in touch with Daniel Snedden, who is currently in Dallas, USA, to find 15630 out whether Daniel had established any relevant contacts with institutions in America who would agree to finance their party." Are the allegations in this official note correct? Are these facts correct?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. If we look at the following page, page 2, under 3 it says: "Information on hostile activity," and it says:
"Dejan Lucic, a citizen of the SFRY, journalist from Belgrade, in -- suspected of having contact with the American service." And then there is a redacted part which the Trial Chamber can see without me reading.
Did you know that the security service suspected you as somebody involved in hostile activities in December 1991, did you know that?
Q. Mr. Lucic, do you know when Mr. Snedden returned from America?
A. He didn't stay long. I can't remember the exact date. That was 24 [as interpreted] years ago.
Q. Can you give us an approximation as to when that took place?
A. As far as I can remember, that was sometime in February, 1991.
Q. Did you see Mr. Snedden upon his return from America, and if you did, who else was present at the meeting?
A. Pavic, Aleksandar Pavic was present at that meeting, and Snedden told us about his journey to America, that it wasn't successful from the political point of view but that he was hopeful that there would be other attempts more successful than the previous one, because the political 15631 situation in the country deteriorated rapidly.
Q. Mr. Lucic, on that occasion did he mention contacts with some senators in America?
A. Yes. I can't remember the name of the senator that he mentioned. I believe that his name was Wilson. Yes, Wilson.
Q. Mr. Lucic, let's look at 2D422, paragraph 2. And the English translation is 2D422, and let's look at page 2.
Let's look at page 2, paragraph 1. Page 2, please. It's page 2 in the English version as well. Somewhere towards the middle it says in actual fact -- actually, this is a report. This is a report about what Daniel Snedden said about his stay in America. After establishing his wish to establish contact with AOS, a meeting had been agreed upon with an American congressman called Charles Wilson, who was very well-known as an anti-Communist and who organised the toppling of Communist regime in many countries. What this report says, does it actually reflect what Mr. Snedden said to you after returning from America?
Q. At some point in time after Daniel Snedden returned from America, did you try to establish contact with this American senator?
A. We tried to do that through Snedden and through Prica.
Q. Did this meeting ever take place?
A. Regrettably, no.
Q. After Snedden's return from America, did you receive any invitations from the Serb diaspora, and, if so, what was that all about?
A. I received an invitation from people from a small town called 15632 Gary. I think that this is near southern Chicago, and a year before that I held a lecture there in the church of Saint Lucas, and the people who originally came from Knin were worried that in their native area there would be another genocide.
Q. Did they ask you for something? Did they suggest something?
A. Since I'm a journalist and since at that point in time I was a politician as well and I knew quite a few people, they asked me to help them so that they would not be unprepared for a war that was obviously in the making. I had Captain Dragan -- rather, Daniel Snedden there at the time, and he had completed some specialist courses in Australia, and this was basically English training which is characterized by minimum losses in manpower, and I find that to be very important. I said to Captain Dragan that it would be very good if he were to teach the Serbs in the Krajina how to win without losing one's life, because Serbs had been brought up in the wrong way, that it is heroic to die for the Fatherland. That is not true. The point is to win and to survive.
Q. Mr. Lucic, tell us, did you take any steps when you received this invitation and, if so, what were they?
A. Yes. We went there. Actually, this telephone contact was in January, if I can remember correctly, and then with Pavic and Prica I went to the Knin Krajina and we met some people with the political structures there. As far as I can remember Zdravkovic was there, President of the Municipality of Benkovac, and we said that we came at the request of Serbs from the Knin Krajina who live in Gary near Chicago and we promised that we'd see what we could do to help. After that I 15633 think it was in March, in spring, Pavic and I took Captain Dragan, Snedden, to Benkovac and we introduced him to the president of the municipality, Zdravkovic --
Q. Let me interrupt you there.
A. So you say that this was in the spring of 1991.
Q. How did you travel to the Knin Krajina?
A. We took my private car when we went there with Captain Dragan. Pavic, Daniel Snedden, and I, that is.
Q. Tell me, what was your destination? Where was it that you had set out for?
A. We met in front -- actually, we went around 6.30 in the morning to Zdravkovic's house. We rang the doorbell and then he showed up.
Q. Are you sure that Zdravkovic was the last name of the president of the Municipality of Benkovac?
A. It may have been a slip of the tongue. I cannot remember any more, but we went to see the president of the municipality of Zdravko -- of Benkovac.
Q. Is it possible that his name was Zecevic?
A. Yes. Sorry. Slip of the tongue. Lapsus linguae.
Q. What happened when you went to see him in the Municipality of Benkovac?
A. Together with him we went to Martic where Captain Daniel Snedden and Martic met. Martic was very mistrustful.
JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Weber.
MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I was just wondering if we could please 15634 have a little bit more foundation. We have something in the spring of 1991. If the witness knows approximate time or month.
JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac, if it was a slip of the tongue of the witness, then you made that slip of the tongue in the 65 ter number filing as well, isn't it?
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I apologise. Perhaps I did not wish to insist.
JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's try -- could you be a bit more precise as to the month.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Tell you the truth, it's been a long time. It's been 20 years, almost 21 years. It was in 1991 and now it's 2011, and it was spring. It may have been March. We'd have to look at the documents.
JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says here that he came from America in mid-March. So that means that we probably went there in April.
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation]
Q. Mr. Lucic, if you cannot remember, it doesn't matter. I will try. 2D424, could we please take a look at that. Point 2. It is an unredacted document. It is a report from the 22nd of March, 1991. Please take a look at this. Actually, page 2. Yes, page 2. On the previous page we see the result of the monitoring of Mr. Aleksandar Pavic's telephone. Could we please not display this to the public. And on page 2 it says that Pavic, on the 19th of March, 15635 spoke to Dejan Lucic, and in parentheses it says "redacted," and because of the public we're not going to read what --
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Actually, Your Honour, maybe it would be better if we moved into private session so that we have this completed, as it were.
JUDGE ORIE: Then we move into private session.
(18 lines redacted) 15636
(3 pages redacted) 15639
(23 lines redacted)
THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour. 15640
JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
Q. Mr. Lucic, once again did Martin Lynch, Snedden's friend, arrive in Belgrade at one point in time?
A. Yes, he did, and I saw him in a bar. I didn't really socialise with him. I did not want to get involved in all that, because that went beyond all those things that I was involved with, and my involvement was with the root political organisation in Serbia.
Q. Do you know if Martin Lynch at one point in time left together with Mr. Snedden to the Krajina of Knin?
A. As far as I know, that's correct.
Q. Do you know if Mr. Martin Lynch participated in the training organised by Daniel Snedden in the Krajina of Knin?
A. Yes. As far as I know, they were both involved in that. Daniel Snedden invited me to a film projection featuring a film about the so-called Knindzas that he had established. That was at the Kolarac culture hall. It was a promotional video about that special unit which was a mixed male/female unit. And that unit didn't have such a strong military significance. Its significance was more -- more of the moral kind. At that point in time, Captain Dragan became more popular in Croatia and in Serbia than the patriarch Pavle, the Orthodox leader who had been until then the most revered person in Serbia, more revered than President Milosevic himself. And it seems that President Milosevic had managed to impose himself on the Serbian people.
Q. Mr. Lucic, excuse me. I have to interrupt you. We have to focus 15641 on what the Defence deems to be relevant in this case. Can we now look at 2D429, paragraph 2. This is the non-redacted version -- version of the document whose translation we will find under 2D429. The document should not be broadcast.
Earlier on I -- I believe that you mentioned that -- that when Daniel returned from that meeting with Martic that you and Pavic also attended, that he wanted to talk to the association of immigrants. Let's look at paragraph 3 where it says:
"On 25th March, 1991, Snedden telephoned the Matica Iseljenika immigrant centre and requested a meeting with Brana Crncevic saying that it was to do with very important things in connection with Serbia. He introduced himself as an immigrant from Australia. We have grounds to suspect that he initiated this contact with the aim of legalising his activity in connection with obtaining and delivering arms to the Knin Krajina."
Are you familiar with any of these facts?
A. As I have already stated, it would have been very -- absolutely pointless to arm Serbs in the Knin Krajina. It would be tantamount to an attempt to sell fridges to Eskimos.
Q. Do you know that he contacted the immigrant centre and Brana Crncevic?
A. Yes, he did contact Brana Crncevic, whose nickname at the time was the mother of all immigrants and he was in charge of helping refugees from Croatia who came in big droves. Brana Crncevic was very close to Slobodan Milosevic; they often drank whisky together and during those 15642 informal meetings, he imposed his opinions on Milosevic and he influenced him in a way that even his advisor couldn't.
Q. Mr. Lucic, could you please look at the following paragraph where it says: "Immediately after that he briefly spoke with Srboljub Milovanov. We can conclude from the contact that Milovanov was briefed on Snedden's activities concerning attempts to obtain arms for the Knin Krajina."
First of all, let me ask you this: Do you know who Srboslav Milovanov is?
A. He was a member of the SPO. Pavic and Prica remained as members of the SB -- SPO together with Daniel Snedden.
JUDGE ORIE: Just slow down because the interpreters are unable to follow your speed of speech. Could you also slow down in speaking.
MR. WEBER: Your Honour, I just want to use the opportunity on page 64, line 2, it is unclear who the -- in the transcript who Brana Crncevic was very close to. It may have some significance.
JUDGE ORIE: I think that I heard that it was Milosevic, drinking whisky with Milosevic. Yes. That's now accurately on the -- it is now accurate on the record.
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I apologise it was an omission on my part. I heard the same. I didn't react because I didn't notice the omission in the transcript.
Q. Mr. Milovanov, in April 1991, what was his position?
A. He was an MP on behalf of the Serbian Defence Movement. He was an MP who -- he was very close with Vuk Draskovic. 15643
Q. Witness, I believe your words have been interpreted properly but I have to check. You said that he was a member of parliament on behalf of --
A. On behalf of the SPO and Vuk Draskovic, the Serbian Renewal Movement. I have to explain. Political organisations in Serbia had their leaders for life, as it were, irregardless of the success of their policies. And being close with political leaders was more important than leadership qualities or wisdom.
Q. Mr. Lucic, let's focus on my questions. Let's go to the following paragraph in the same documents where it says on the same day Snedden phoned the Knin SO to ask whether they received the fax he had sent to the chief of the Knin SUP, Martic. He was told that such a fax had not yet arrived. According to the intelligence available -- that's on the following page. I apologise, can we go to the following page? According to the intelligence available, Snedden is using a fax machine at the branch of the GBM Elektronik company at Palmira Toljatija number 5 where his mistress, Branka Popovic, is employed. Do you know anything about the telephone conversation to Martic in Knin and about a fax he was supposed to send there?
A. No I don't know anything about that.
JUDGE ORIE: I really have to urge you to slow down because you are going, by far, too quickly. Please proceed.
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] I apologise once again, Your Honour.
Q. My question, but before that, please wait. My question is: Do you know anything about the fax that Mr. Snedden was supposed to send to 15644 Mr. Martic at the Knin SUP?
THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the answer.
JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Part now of the French translation is not complete, Mr. Bakrac. So if you would -- yes. Could you -- I'll slowly read part of what I see in English on the transcript. According to the intelligence available, Snedden is using a fax machine at the branch of the GBM Elektronik company at -- could you please repeat the address?
THE WITNESS: You ask me?
JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Number 5 is there but not the name of the street.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Palmira Toljatija Street in New Belgrade.
JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that's where his mistress was employed.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Branka Popovic, yes.
JUDGE ORIE: Then you were asked whether you knew anything about the telephone conversation to Martic in Knin and about a fax he was supposed to send there, and you didn't know anything about that. Can we resume from there, Mr. Bakrac.
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
Q. Mr. Lucic, you didn't know anything about the telephone contact and the fax. Did you know if Mr. Snedden had contacts with Mr. Martic?
A. Yes. I knew that they were in contact because he tried to accomplish what he started, and the only person with whom he could talk to at an equal military level was Martic, and Martic was supposed to help 15645 him to set up that special forces unit as part of the Territorial Defence, not as part of a police station.
Q. Mr. Lucic, to speed things along, let's move to the third page in the same document.
JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, Mr. Bakrac, this witness was scheduled for two hours examination-in-chief. You have now used one hour and 40 -- 40 -- close to 48, 9 minutes, which means 10 minutes left. I looked at the 65 ter summary. I also listened to the testimony. Pages and pages were spent on what seems to be by some [indiscernible] that is to obtain financial and political abroad especially in the United States and but that is expanded with the names of senators and congressman and in all detail. Do you think you could finish in the next 15 minutes, Mr. Bakrac?
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I was going to ask you that. Our -- our next witness should take -- was supposed to take three and a half hours. We are prepared to curtail that if you will -- if you allow me to extend the testimony of this witness by half an hour. I wanted to provide a broader picture for the benefit of the Trial Chamber. I'm nearing the end of my examination-in-chief, and I believe another 45 minutes would suffice to accomplish that.
[Trial Chamber confers]
JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac. We will resume at 5 minutes to 6.00, and from that moment you have half an hour, 30 minutes, to finish your examination-in-chief. As you know, we always carefully consider and monitor the way in which the examination takes place, and you didn't give 15646 a broad picture. You lost yourself in quite some details, which we had great difficulties in understanding what the relevance of those details for this testimony were.
We'll resume at five minutes to 6.00.
--- Recess taken at 5.33 p.m.
--- On resuming at 6.03 p.m.
JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Bakrac. Half an hour still available. Please proceed.
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
Q. Mr. Lucic, let's look at page 4 in B/C/S. This is the end of the third page and the beginning of the fourth page in English?
A. And what would be my number?
Q. We're still on the same document that we had before the break. Maybe you can look at the screen in front of you. Where it says: "On the 29th of March, 1991, Snedden phoned someone called Dragan from Banja Luka." Their dialogue is presented. The story starts with whether Snedden -- or rather Dragan intended to come to Belgrade or not. Snedden asks him if he is still affiliated with the national defence and then Snedden says, "Do you see the situation in Krajina? I am in contact with Martic, the chief of the SUP in Knin."
And Dragan answers: "So you were with Martic?" Snedden: "Yes. And the entire leadership there. They are in rather dire straits because they did not receive" --
JUDGE ORIE: Do we have the right page in English before us?
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I believe that we 15647 should be on the following page I can see the words "National defence" at the end of this page. I said that we will be reading from the end of the third page and the beginning of the fourth page. I'm already reading from the fourth page in English, and I wish to stay on the same page in B/C/S.
JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I was also a bit misled by the capital letters for Snedden and not for Dragan in the translation. But perhaps we move on.
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
Q. Dragan is in minuscules. This is his interlocutor from Banja Luka. Dragan asks: "You were with Martic?"
Snedden answers: "And with entire leadership. They are in very difficult situation because they did not receive the assistance that they expected. There seems to be a -- a very tense relationship between themselves and Milosevic, and they feel that Milosevic and the Serbian opposition have turned their backs on them. The situation is really sad. I tried to do something but to no avail. It seems that in Serbia there is -- there is nobody prepared to do something like that. That's why I decided to give it all up and go to Africa. Look at Vuk Draskovic. He's gone completely mad."
And Dragan answers: "Forget Draskovic." And then the story continues with the following words: "The same day Snedden called Milos Prica to arrange a joint meeting with Dejan Lucic and Aleksandar Pavic. My question to you, Witness, according to the best of your recollection, was this meeting ever scheduled after 15648 the 29th of March, 1991?
A. Yes. The meeting was indeed scheduled. However, I would like to draw everybody's attention to the fact that Pavic, Prica, and Snedden are still members of the SPO, because we adhered to the Koran wisdom which says don't throw the dirty water before you are able to obtain new fresh water. Since I -- they remained members of the SPO, and Daniel Snedden tried to use Vuk Draskovic to make a certain -- certain corrections because at the same time Vuk Draskovic established the Serbian Guards. He thought Vuk Draskovic, who was a member of parliament, would be able to do more for the Serbs in Krajina than Daniel Snedden who was just a marginal character in the entire story.
Q. What you have just told us was that something that Daniel told you at the meeting?
A. No. It was our agreement to use the SPO as a -- a lever, because we thought that there would be a change of situation in the SPO, that people would realise that Vuk Draskovic was not up to the historical moment, and we see from this conversation that Daniel Snedden and Dragan from Banja Luka were of the same opinion, and that was that Vuk Draskovic obviously was not somebody who could be a leader or a statesman in Serbia. He was just an opposition leader and not the number one person in --
Q. Mr. Lucic, I have to interrupt you because my time is running up. Kindly tell us whether at that meeting that followed this telephone conversation as you've told us that disappointment, or rather, the statement that we heard in the telephone conversation, was that something 15649 that Daniel Snedden conveyed to you as well?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Can you remember what he told you at that time?
A. He said that he had tried through the immigrants association, through minister Sainovic, through Milovanov, he used all of that to influence Vuk. He tried to establish contact with Vuk Draskovic left, right, and centre in order to create the other side of the bridge. He already had the one-prong bridge leading to Martic but not to the other side.
Q. Do you know whether before he left the Knin Krajina he ever established any contacts, and if he did, with whom?
A. I believe that he established contacts through Klara Mandic who was a Jew from some people in Israel. He hoped that the contact that he had managed to establish would lead to the centres of power which would then prevent a bad rerun of the year 1941. I'm talking about the Second World War when Jews, Serbs, and the Roma population perished in great numbers.
Q. Mr. Lucic, let me stop you there. Do you know how Daniel Snedden went to Krajina? How did that happen, and how come that he stayed there for a longer period of time? Do you know that?
A. I can only guess what happened. I can't tell you anything for a fact, because I don't know.
Q. Before his departure to Krajina, did the two of you see each other?
A. As far as I can remember, we saw each other, but he only told me 15650 that he had found a good wind to take him there. And since I knew that he had established contacts with Klara Mandic, I assumed that that was the wind, the Jewish lobby. And when I saw him on TV with David Zvezda, I was in Germany at the time. I saw him on RTL with David Zvezda or David Star, and then I put two and two together then I realized the name he used Daniel, that was a name quite often used among the Jewish population.
Q. Mr. Lucic, my time is running up. Let's focus. When you saw him on TV where was he? Please make a break. You say you saw him on RTL television, where was he?
A. He was in the Knin Krajina.
Q. Were there any explanation as to what he was doing there?
A. The explanation on TV was that he was the leader of the Knindza men and women who were members of that special unit. Their emblem was a little bear, and he was also presented as a good leader.
Q. Mr. Pavic --
Q. Yes, Mr. Lucic. I apologise. Mr. Lucic, let's look at 2D431, paragraph 2, which is the unredacted version. The English translation is 2D431.
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to look at the second page in B/C/S and in English. We're looking at page 2. On page 1 you can see a conversation between Snedden and Lynch. The latter we talked about. And some movements on the following morning. And now let's go to page 2 where we find a conversation with Klara Mandic, it 15651 seems.
Can we go into private session, Your Honours, because there is a redacted part in the document. I would like to read it. Therefore, I think we should be in private session.
JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
(19 lines redacted) 15652
(8 pages redacted) 15660
(8 lines redacted)
THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honour.
JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Mr. Lucic, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Jordash. Mr. Jordash is counsel for Mr. Stanisic.
Mr. Jordash, please proceed.
MR. JORDASH: Thank you, Your Honours. I don't have many questions.
Cross-examination by Mr. Jordash:
Q. Good afternoon. Are you receiving me?
A. [In English] Yes.
Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Witness. Just a couple of subjects. First of all, the Serbian Guard, you mentioned that it was an organisation connected to the Serbian Renewal Movement. What kind of organisation was it in 1991?
A. First of all, may I say that this organisation was registered as an NGO, as it is called nowadays. It was a group of citizens and was 15661 organised as such by the state -- or, rather, in the state. The Serbian Guard was the militant department of the
Serbian Renewal Movement.
Q. Thank you. Did it become armed during 1991?
A. As far as I know, the Serbian Guard did not have any weapons in Serbia itself or perhaps some minimal quantities so that people could be trained in order to know how some new weapons can be handled, but their training took place around Belgrade, in some forests. And its most important function was political, if I can put it that way, rather than military, because --
Q. Mr. -- sorry, can I interrupt you. I want to try to finish quickly.
Do you know a man called Vukasin Milovic. Was he a member of the staff of the Serbian Guard in 1991?
Q. Was he connected in the Serbian Guard in any way?
A. I don't know the man.
THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all other microphones please be switched off. We can barely hear the witness.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the Serbian Guard I knew Branko Vasiljkovic --
Q. Okay. Thank you --
A. I know Giska Bozovic as well.
Q. If you just answer my questions, then we can finish quickly, 15662 please. Where did the S -- where did the Serbian Guard receive their weapons from? Could I suggest it was from the 4th of July barracks in Belgrade in 1991?
A. That happened later. They got their first weapons out of their own arsenals, because some of them had already had weapons at home. These were some weapons that were of interest to them, like modern automatic rifles --
Q. Thank you.
A. -- American ones, Hecklers, Uzis and so on. As for later on --
Q. As for later on -- when did they start receiving weapons from the 4th of July barracks, please?
A. They started receiving these weapons after two or three months of this game as they were playacting, pretending to be a military unit. Where they got that, I don't know. At any rate, they did not go to Croatia with these weapons. As far as I know, the state disarmed them at the border. The State of Serbia did not allow weapons to be taken to Croatia, and there were plenty of weapons in Croatia anyway. So when they went to Krajina, they --
Q. Let me summarise the situation if I can and see if you agree. Towards the end of 1991, the Serbian Guard received weapons from the 4th of July barracks, which was under the control of General Simovic; is that correct?
A. I don't know.
Q. Okay. Let me just simplify that. Did they receive weapons towards the end of 1991 from the 14th [sic] of July barracks? 15663
A. As I've already said, I do not know. I heard about that, but I don't know. I don't know myself. I was not present.
Q. You heard about that from other members of the Serbian Renewal Movement?
A. Renewal, "obnove". Yes. I heard that from people like Beli.
A. Beli and Giska Bozovic.
Q. When those people tried to take the weapons through --
A. [In English] Sorry, not from the Beli. [Interpretation] I've just made a mistake.
Q. When they tried to move through Serbia to Croatia with those weapons, the Serbian MUP stopped them and disarmed them; is that correct?
A. That is correct and that is what I've already said. They considered that to be treason on the part of the police.
Q. Was the Serbian Guard eventually broken up through the efforts of the Serbian MUP who kept disarming the members?
A. The Serbian Guard was broken up because it did not want to fit into the concept of Territorial Defence. It acted independently, and they were insufficiently trained in the Knin Krajina near Gospic, I think. So its military leaders got killed, and soldiers returned home disappointed. Some individuals stayed in the Serb Krajina, the Knin Krajina, and joined the units that were led by Babic as the political leader and Martic as the military leader.
Q. And who was instrumental in breaking them up? Was it the Serbian MUP? 15664
A. What I heard, I mean I was not out there in the field, was that the Serb MUP was against the Serbian Guard for two reasons. One was the fact that these people who went there without sufficient training could get carried away by the situation in the field, appalled by the crimes of the Croatian military, and they could have reacted spontaneously by committing crimes themselves. The reason was that the regime of Slobodan Milosevic did not want a political party to have an army of its own because that could destabilise them.
Q. And we've heard about the knowledge that you have concerning them receiving weapons from the 14th of July barracks. Did they also receive training through the same military structures?
A. Probably not, because at that time in Serbia all the men served in the military and they therefore had basic military training. As far as I know the Serbian Guard had some foreigners who trained the guard in modern warfare techniques.
Q. Who organised that, the Serbian Renewal Movement?
A. The foreigners were organised by the Serbian Renewal Movement, but probably all of that could not have happened if from the shadow they did not have the support of military security structures.
Q. So to -- to summarise, from what you saw, the Serbian MUP was against the Serbian Guard but the military structures gave them a degree of support.
A. Absolutely. Absolutely correct.
Q. Thank you. Now, another subject and then this is my -- then I can finish. 15665 You --
MR. BAKRAC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do apologise for interrupting my colleague, but I don't think that the interpretation is right. On page 86, lines 2 and 3.
JUDGE ORIE: You were asked about -- you told us about that there was some foreigners who trained the Serbian Guard in modern warfare techniques, then you were asked:
"Who organised that, the Serbian Renewal Movement?" And then you answered:
"The foreigners," at least that's how its translated, "were organised by the Serbian Renewal Movement --" yes. Please correct me when this was wrongly understood.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the Serbian Renewal Movement brought these foreigners in but that could not have happened without the permission of the military.
JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So it is corrected. Please proceed, Mr. Jordash.
Q. You testified today at page 78 that Dragan was offered the rank of reserve captain in the Territorial Defence. Do you know who offered him that rank?
A. I assume it was Negovanovic.
Q. And from what you've said, he was less than happy with that offer and felt that he deserved something more. Would you agree with me that he was extremely angry and felt devalued with that offer? 15666
A. Yes, that's correct. Captain Dragan -- Captain Dragan was actually a brand. His function was not of a military nature. Anybody could have taught those soldiers how to wage war, anybody who had that kind of knowledge. He was a brand. He was a symbol, as it were, and symbols cannot --
Q. Thank you. Did he get into an argument or a long-running argument with General Simovic? Are you able to testify to that?
A. He was in an argument with all military structures, General Simovic included. Because he was ridiculed, ignored, put down. These military persons did not understand that marketing was more important than cannons, than the force of weapons.
Q. Did you during this time when he fell into these arguments with the military structures, did you hear him begin to assert his alleged connection with the Serbian DB?
A. Let me explain that after the Second World War Tito organised a security service within which there was the military security and state security, and --
Q. Sorry to interrupt. We know a lot of this, because we've been here for two long years. Could you just answer the question. Did you ever hear him assert during this time, during the time when he was in this confrontation with the military structures, that he was connected somehow to the Serbian DB?
A. He was scaring the army with the DB in order to make them do what he wanted them to do, because he knew that there was always an antagonism there. 15667
Q. Just elaborate a little bit on that.
JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, I said that would I need five minutes. You stay well within your time, but --
MR. JORDASH: I can finish this tomorrow with Your Honour's leave.
JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and then you would need?
MR. JORDASH: Two to three minutes.
JUDGE ORIE: Two to three minutes.
MR. JORDASH: If I can say five just in case.
JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I'd rather not leave the matter -- let's say five just to be very generous, Mr. Jordash.
But first I would invite the witness to already leave the courtroom, but, Mr. Lucic, you are instructed that you should not speak with anyone -- could you please keep your -- could you please -- yes. Before you leave, I would like to give you a few instructions. You should not speak with anyone or communicate in whatever way with anyone about your testimony, that is testimony already given today or testimony still to be given tomorrow or perhaps even the day after tomorrow. Is that clear? Because we'd like to see you back tomorrow morning --
THE WITNESS: Yes.
JUDGE ORIE: -- at 9.00 in this same courtroom. Then you may follow the usher.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
[The witness stands down] 15668
JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jordash, one very practical matter. The Chamber is not considering to ask for an additional medical report before the scheduled one on Friday. The Chamber received information that the present condition of Mr. Stanisic is such that we should not expect him to be back in court this week.
MR. JORDASH: My -- I'm only hesitating because obviously I received requests from -- or inquiries from those who know Mr. Stanisic in -- in Serbia concerning his health, and --
JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see your point. This should not prevent either Mr. Stanisic or yourself from seeking information from -- from his treating doctors, but of course as you know, we usually rely on reporting doctors, and I think the first step to be taken is that you find out, to the with Mr. Stanisic and those who treat him, what is the situation. If by tomorrow if you're unable to find out anything further, we'll further consider, but our information is that he'll not be available in court most likely this week.
MR. JORDASH: Yes. The information I have is that he's been taken to the prison UNDU hospital.
JUDGE ORIE: I'm not aware of that.
MR. JORDASH: That's all I know.
JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber is not.
MR. JORDASH: But I should inform Your Honours that I am not able to speak to his treating doctors, because the Registry won't let me. They'll let me put questions but not to actually speak to them directly. So -- 15669
JUDGE ORIE: Also not in the presence of Mr. Stanisic.
MR. JORDASH: And not even in the presence of Mr. Stanisic.
JUDGE ORIE: I take it that the doctors have told Mr. Stanisic what -- why they took him to hospital.
MR. JORDASH: I -- I would hope they have. Whether Mr. Stanisic follows that completely, I don't know. Whether he's in a fit state to follow that, I don't know.
JUDGE ORIE: Neither do I.
MR. JORDASH: Whether I can speak to him now, I don't know. Well, I can't speak to him now; it's 7.00.
JUDGE ORIE: You also know that the primary responsibility for the health care of Mr. Stanisic is in the hands of the Registrar. We are concerned especially when it has an impact on the court proceedings. Well, we know what at present the impact on the court proceedings is and we expect a report, I think, this Friday. Meanwhile we assume that the Registrar will take full responsibility for that medical care. Of course, the medical care administered by -- by the doctors. If there's any matter there remaining, then the Chamber offers its assistance in trying to clarify these issues, but as far as the proceedings at this moment, our information is that the present condition of Mr. Stanisic, without knowing any further details, is such that we should not expect him to be back in court for the coming two days which are scheduled today.
If you further need -- if -- if you think that by Chamber staff smoothing your way to access to -- to information which is, of course, 15670 important but of a different kind, that is what the medical condition of Mr. Stanisic is, not to say that the Chamber is not interested in that, but of course that is not our primary responsibility unless any matter is raised which makes it our primary responsibility.
MR. JORDASH: Your Honour, I understand --
JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
MR. JORDASH: -- and accept completely what Your Honour is saying and we're grateful for the offer.
JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And again, you may have noticed also last week, questions to be put, et cetera, we do not hesitate. We usually take immediate action when it is for us to take action and we will always assist you.
MR. JORDASH: Yes.
JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Groome.
MR. GROOME: Your Honour, just to raise with the Chamber on this issue of his medical condition. His medical condition has always been an important factor that the Chamber has considered in its decisions for provisional release, and I see earlier today a decision granting provisional release has come through. I would ask the Chamber to consider overnight whether it would not be prudent for the Chamber to update itself on the medical condition with respect to provisional release.
JUDGE ORIE: Let me see. Today a decision granting provisional for Mr. Stanisic?
MR. JORDASH: No, I think it's for Mr. Simatovic. 15671
JUDGE ORIE: That's a totally different matter.
MR. GROOME: I apologise, Your Honour. It's --
JUDGE ORIE: Well, let me say the following: It's -- it's not pure coincidence that one decision has been issued today and not two. That -- let me leave it to that. That -- but I would say that almost goes without saying that ...
Then I ask for indulgence of our interpreters. There's a matter -- let me see whether we can wait until tomorrow. Yes, I think we can wait with it until tomorrow. So I had another decision to be read, but I'm not going to steal even more time of those who are already so loyally assisting us in this courtroom.
We adjourn for the day, and we resume tomorrow the 14th of December, 2011, at 9.00 in the morning, in Courtroom II. And, Mr. Jordash, of course the waiver issue may be relevant and important for tomorrow as well. So let's see if that has an impact on the proceedings. We stand adjourned.
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.04 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 14th day
of December, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.