2266
Friday, 26 April 2002
(Open session)
[The accused entered court]
--- Upon commencing at 1.33 p.m.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good afternoon, everybody. The case be called, please.
THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is Case Number IT-97-24-T, the Prosecutor versus Milomir Stakic.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And the appearances, please.
MR. KOUMJIAN: Nicholas Koumjian with Ann Sutherland, assisted by Ruth Karper, case manager, for the Prosecution. Good afternoon, Your Honours.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Special good afternoon to you. Welcome aboard.
MR. LUKIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Branko Lukic and Mr. John Ostojic for the Defence.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. May we directly proceed with Witness B. May Witness B be brought in.
[The witness entered court].
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good afternoon, Witness B.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The Defence is prepared for the cross-examination?
MR. LUKIC: Yes, we are, Your Honour.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please proceed.
MR. LUKIC: Thank you. 2267
WITNESS: WITNESS B [Resumed]
[Witness answered through interpreter] Cross-examined by Mr. Lukic:
Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Witness B.
A. Good day.
Q. Could you please tell us if you had testified before the Tribunal before?
A. Yes.
Q. For the record, we would like to note that the Defence is cross-examining the witness, even though it has not had the opportunity to see the transcript of his testimony in a different case, because the same was not disclosed by the Prosecution, according to the decision of the Trial Chamber of the 25th of April of this year. The Prosecution is not bound to provide the Defence with this transcript. So we will proceed with the cross-examination.
Witness B, if you remember, could you please tell us whether the police officers at Kozarac after the takeover of power of -- on the 30th of April, 1992, were Muslims?
A. I don't know that. I didn't live in Kozarac.
Q. Thank you. Do you know who was on the barricades at Hambarine and Kozarac?
A. At Hambarine, I don't know their names.
Q. Do you know what was the ethnicity of the people who were at the checkpoint at Hambarine?
A. Yes, Muslims. 2268
MR. KOUMJIAN: Could I just ask the Court -- may I ask the Court to ask the witness to pause before answering the question for two purposes: One, first to allow the interpretation to catch up, and although I'm sure it would never happen, in case I want to make an objection, it would give me an opportunity to do so once I've heard the question interpreted before the answer begins.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Of course, the Chamber will jealously protect the right to be heard and informed also for the Prosecutor, but to be serious, first of all, it's a matter for facilitated interpretation, and therefore please take care there is no overlapping and wait a little bit until the answer or the question has been interpreted. Thank you.
MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
Q. Witness B, you stated that after the request for Aziz Aliskovic to surrender and also for weapons to be handed over, the citizens of Hambarine did not wish to hand over either the weapons or Aziz Aliskovic. Is this true?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Thank you. Did you hear about the murder of a police officer at Urije when the killer fled to Donja Kuharska?
A. I heard that over Radio Prijedor, that he was killed. Yes, I heard that over Radio Prijedor.
Q. Do you know whether in Bosnia and Herzegovina and the former Yugoslavia, it was normal before the war to arrest the perpetrator of a killing, of a murder?
A. Yes, before, that was quite usual. 2269
Q. On page 5 of your statement, you're talking about the Banovic brothers, and in your statement, you claim that they were both -- they were both responsible for abusing the inmates at Keraterm and Trnopolje. Do you stand by your statement?
A. Yes, but in that statement of mine, as far as I know, I gave a more detailed explanation of that.
Q. Thank you. You were arrested at home when you were taken to Keraterm. Is that true?
A. Yes.
Q. How many Muslim houses are there in your street, if you remember?
A. I don't know exactly, but it was approximately half and half, half were Croat and half were Muslim, and there was one Serbian home.
Q. Do you remember how many men were arrested that day?
A. Between 20 and 25. I don't know the exact number.
Q. Were there any people arrested at Kurevo who were brought to Keraterm after you were arrested?
A. When I came to the camp, I didn't know the composition of arrested people, who was arrested where.
Q. Very well. Thank you. Were there any arrested people who were wearing uniform at Keraterm?
A. I didn't see them, except for two police officers who had signed an oath of loyalty to the Serbs. But then they were brought to Keraterm from their place of work.
Q. Do you know if there were any cases of personal revenge at Keraterm? 2270
A. I only heard about that, but I don't know about it.
Q. Could you please tell us what you heard.
A. For example, my neighbour was called out one night and taken out. And he told the guards -- asked the guards: "Why me? My wife is a Serb." And then the guards replied: "That's why we want you." And the man was brought back to the cell after he was beaten.
Q. Do you know if there were such cases of personal accounts settling at Keraterm, if there were many such cases at Keraterm? Did you hear about such cases?
A. Well, I did hear of some cases. I don't know how many there were.
Q. Thank you. According to you, who was authorised to release somebody from the camp?
A. From Keraterm, there were no such cases, nobody could come out of Keraterm alive.
Q. Did you hear about a man called Muhamed Cehajic?
A. Yes. He was the elected president of the municipal assembly. He was elected at the last democratic elections.
Q. Do you know that Mr. Muhamed Cehajic was opposed to the presence of the JNA on the territory of the municipality of Prijedor?
A. No.
Q. Do you believe or do you know that he could have ordered the army to leave the territory of the municipality of Prijedor?
A. No, he couldn't do that.
Q. Could you give us the names of several people who were with you at Keraterm and who are alive today? 2271
MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I think this answer should be in closed session.
MR. LUKIC: [In English] I agree, Your Honour, yes.
MR. KOUMJIAN: Or private session.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Okay. Then please, we continue in private session.
[Private session].
(13 lines redacted)
(Open session)
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: It is open session. Would you please repeat your last question once more.
MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation]
Q. Witness B, did you volunteer to testify before the Tribunal? 2272
A. No.
Q. Did you state that you regularly followed on television what the proceedings at the Tribunal?
A. No, I didn't follow the proceedings at the Tribunal at all. It wasn't possible for me to do that.
Q. I would like to move on to the checkpoints now, and I would like to ask you a few questions on that topic. You said that the people at the checkpoints would stop everybody that they saw in civilian clothes. Is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know that in April and May 1992, general mobilisation was in force?
A. No.
Q. Did the guards at the checkpoints know in advance who was a Muslim and who was a Serb before they checked the ID of the person that they stopped?
A. No. They couldn't know in advance, but it was a well-known fact that in 90 per cent or more of Serbs were already in uniforms. They were walking around in uniforms.
Q. But when we're talking about people in civilian clothes, the guards couldn't distinguish them until they saw their ID. Is that right?
A. Probably.
Q. Did that also mean they would stop Serbs who were in civilian clothes?
A. Yes, yes. 2273
Q. I would like to ask you now something about the 30th of April, 1992, the day when the Serbs took power in the municipality of Prijedor. Are you sure that on the 30th of April, 1992, the Crisis Staff was mentioned, as you stated?
A. No. I'm not sure whether it was mentioned that day for the first time, exactly on that day. I'm not sure about that.
Q. Very well. You don't know whether it was mentioned for the first time that day, but do you remember whether it was mentioned on that day as well, the Crisis Staff, whether it was mentioned as somebody who had taken over power?
A. The Crisis Staff began to be mentioned during those days. But whether it was mentioned for the first time that morning or the day before or the day after, I couldn't tell.
Q. Very well. Thank you. Do you remember what was stated, who was at the head of the Crisis Staff?
A. I don't know. At that time, I knew, but now I don't know.
Q. Thank you. I would like to now ask you something about the checkpoint at Hambarine. Were you at the checkpoint at Hambarine?
A. No.
Q. How do you know that unknown and armed people were passing through the checkpoint at Hambarine? Could you tell us how you know that, please?
A. We talked about this yesterday, but I heard that from the local population, and it was a well-known fact that throughout the entire territory of the municipality of Prijedor, armed and uniformed people were moving about. 2274
Q. Do you know that the Ljubija police forces remained mixed, even after the takeover of power?
A. I don't know whether they were mixed, but I know that a couple of police officers signed their loyalty to the Serbs. And those police officers, as I mentioned earlier, ended up the way I said they did, even though they had signed loyalty to -- or declared their loyalty to the Serbs and remained at their jobs.
Q. Did the police officers from Prijedor on their way to work, to Ljubija have to pass through Hambarine?
A. If somebody was working in Ljubija and lived in Prijedor and had to travel there, they had to pass through, yes.
Q. Could you please tell us how far this checkpoint at Hambarine is from your house?
A. Two kilometres.
Q. Can we conclude, then, that there were Muslim checkpoints, and after the takeover by the Serbs on the 30th of April, 1992 -- even after the takeover by the Serbs on the 30th of April, 1992?
A. You say "even after the takeover," but I think that those checkpoints were set up after the takeover. That's how it was, I think.
Q. These checkpoints, the Muslim checkpoints, were they attacked before the conflict or the clash at Hambarine?
A. No. I don't know what we're talking about. We're talking in the plural, but at Hambarine, there was only one checkpoint. We're talking about one checkpoint.
Q. Could you please explain to us, if you can, how is it possible for 2275 Muslim checkpoints to exist at the time of the Serb takeover?
A. Well, I don't know, but probably because Muslim villages -- well, probably because nobody recognised this authority.
Q. When you say "nobody recognised this authority," who do you mean?
A. I mean the locals, the inhabitants of those individual villages.
Q. Does that apply to everyone, Serbs, Croats, and Muslims?
A. There were no Serbs in Hambarine.
Q. You say you had been a driver in the army. Is that true?
A. Yes.
Q. Did drivers do target practice in the Yugoslav People's Army?
A. Yes.
Q. What were the weapons involved?
A. Infantry weapons.
Q. We talked yesterday about the autonomous region of Krajina, the Serb entity that had been established at the time. And I would like to ask you, was this autonomous region of Krajina encircled and completely cut off from all other territories controlled by Serb forces? Do you know anything about it?
A. No, I don't think it was cut off.
Q. Did you hear of the battles for the corridor?
A. Yes.
Q. "Corridor" means a passage. Why would it have been necessary to open up a passage if there had been other connections with other territories?
A. Are you expecting an answer? 2276
Q. Yes. If you can give me one; if not --
A. I can't give you an answer.
Q. You say that you left Prijedor through Travnik. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you able to remain on the territory controlled by Muslim forces?
A. Yes.
Q. Why didn't you stay there? Why did you go to a third country instead?
A. Simply because I didn't want to wage war, and nobody was forcing me at the time.
Q. I would now like to ask you something about the transport, the convoy via Mount Vlasic. When you described the truck which took you and your family towards Travnik after you had left your bus, can you tell us what kind of truck was it?
A. It was a trailer truck.
Q. And can you describe the terrain across which this truck drove? Was it hilly terrain or a flat land?
A. I can't tell you, because the tarpaulin covering was closed.
Q. Were you able to feel at what speed the truck travelled?
A. No. There was a lot of dust, though, and we were able to conclude that the road was a macadam one.
Q. You didn't hear any gunshots when you were leaving that place on Mount Vlasic. Isn't that true?
A. Yes, it is. 2277
Q. You said that there were a lot of women, children, and men when you arrived in Travnik. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know that people were leaving Prijedor in large numbers even before the war, even before the power was seized?
A. Yes, a certain number of people had left while the roads were still open.
Q. Do you know that people mainly travelled by bus, via Croatia to third countries?
A. Yes. The only way to leave was through Croatia, but that was before the war.
Q. At one point you said that you had to produce your ID at the entrance to the town. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Can we then conclude that you did move around town?
A. Yes. After the takeover, I once went downtown because I was a member of the reserve police force. And we had all been summoned to a meeting of reserve policemen in Prijedor.
Q. You also told us yesterday that some of your family came to Keraterm and tried to get through to you some food and clothing or whatever. Is that correct?
A. Yes, it was mostly women from our family who came.
Q. Can we then conclude that members of your family continued to move around town even after your arrest?
A. Yes. 2278
Q. Do you know that anyone was killed at a checkpoint manned by Serbs?
A. I'm not aware of any specific case.
Q. Thank you, Witness B. I am sorry if my cross-examination was an undue burden on you.
MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] We have no further questions.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Re-examination by the OTP?
Re-examined by Mr. Koumjian:
Q. Sir, Witness B, you were asked some questions about when you heard about the Crisis Staff. Can you tell us what you remember hearing about the Crisis Staff or when you would hear their name mentioned or used?
A. The names of these members of the Crisis Staff were mentioned after the takeover because the municipal leadership that had been elected in a legitimate way had been replaced, and the Crisis Staff was in the process of appointing new people to senior positions. But I'm not able to tell you much about the members of the Crisis Staff.
Q. I'm sorry. I didn't phrase my question very precisely. What I'm interested in knowing is did you hear the name of the body, the Crisis Staff, used in relation to specific events, announcements, or orders that you heard in the media in Prijedor?
A. Yes. All decisions that were adopted and broadcast over the radio, decisions or orders were read out. And at the end, you would always hear "the Crisis Staff." But who the members of this Crisis Staff were, I don't know. 2279BLANK PAGE 2280
Q. Can you remember some of the kinds of orders that you heard given in the name of the Crisis Staff?
A. I think those were orders to return weapons by neighbourhood.
Q. You say by neighbourhood. Did these neighbourhoods tend to be neighbourhoods of a particular ethnic group?
A. Yes, by all means. The places in question were always Muslim villages, or if a particular area or a neighbourhood had mixed population, the decision or order applied only to Croats or Muslims.
Q. Sir, can you describe a little bit about the life that you had in Prijedor prior to the conflict. Did you own any property prior to the conflict breaking out in April, May of 1992?
A. Yes --
MR. LUKIC: [In English] This is not the line of question which follows the cross-examination, so I apologise, but I have to object.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sustained.
MR. KOUMJIAN: I will show the clarity of this by leaping to the question that I was going to do following this question.
Q. Sir, when you were in Travnik and in Bosnia, did you have the same life that you had -- excuse me, when you left Bosnia for a third country, did you have the same life in Travnik that you had had prior to the conflict?
A. No. No. Before the war, I had a pretty good life in Prijedor. And when we arrived in Travnik, after being robbed of everything we practically owned, only the clothes we were wearing, and since no better life was in store for us there, we decided to move on, to go abroad. 2281
MR. KOUMJIAN: No further questions.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. May I just ask a few questions. Questioned by the Court:
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Witness B, since when did you live in Prijedor?
A. My entire life, until the war. 30 years precisely.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Did you ever hear at that time the name Dr. Stakic?
A. No, not before the war.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: And of course, you have seen the accused in this courtroom. Can you recognise the person? Have you any idea? Have you ever seen this person before out of the courtroom?
A. No, I don't remember ever seeing him before.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Witness B, at 14.07, you answered on a question -- on the basis of a question of the Defence that: "Before the war" -- and you emphasised before the war -- "the only way to leave was through Croatia." How was it possible to leave Prijedor after the takeover?
A. Afterwards, it became impossible to leave Prijedor on your own. It was simply not possible. The only way were those convoys organised by Serb authorities.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you please explain this a little bit more in detail. Please understand, we want to get a picture coming as close as possible to that what happened in that time, in 1992, in your hometown. When you wanted, for example, we have heard a lot about the road from Banja Luka to Prijedor, and then going on to Croatia. Why couldn't you 2282 use this road just to leave, or possibly other ways how to leave the municipality? Why wasn't it possible? In concrete, who was personally responsible for this?
A. At that time, that was the only way, the only possibility, of leaving Bosnia and Herzegovina open to the inhabitants of Prijedor, the road Prijedor-Banja Luka, namely, because all the other routes were already part of battlefields, and that was the only road open, leading to Croatia or Serbia. All other communications had been cut off, because the war was in full throttle, so to speak, everywhere. And I personally didn't leave because I was physically unable to. It was impossible to pass all the checkpoints that existed on that road. And it was too dangerous. It was too much of a risk to try going anywhere.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. To turn to another point, you mentioned the closing of the Keraterm camp. Were you aware at that point in time what were the reasons for closing the camp?
A. No, we didn't know anything about the reasons.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sometimes, during your statements, you mentioned the notion "Serbs." What do you mean when using this notion, Bosnian Serbs or Serbs from Serbia?
A. I mean Bosnian Serbs.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Sometimes you mentioned the notion "police." Could you make a distinction between the role of, let's say, regional and municipal police? Is there a distinction to be made on the basis of the uniforms, and could you please give us a view on the uniforms? 2283
A. Absolutely not. You couldn't distinguish based on the uniform. You could only distinguish between reserve policemen and active-duty policemen. They had different uniforms.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Apropos uniforms, you mentioned numerous times that you saw uniforms in Prijedor, Keraterm, Trnopolje. Could you there make a distinction between special groups wearing special uniforms, and could you please describe this uniform, the colour of the uniform, a little bit.
A. Uniforms were done by policemen who were on active duty, who had been on the police force, even before the war. When the war began, they continued to wear the same uniforms. And when the war began, in addition to the existing uniforms, a new kind of blue camouflage uniforms appeared, so being totally unfamiliar with this new uniform, I was only able to distinguish between reserve and active-duty policemen. Or, for example, when I see a man whom I knew from before, wearing a uniform, I was able to tell whether he was in the reserve or he was an active-duty policeman, because I knew reserve policemen, having been one of them.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: When you saw, for example, such as you mentioned, blue camouflage uniforms, what was your association? Which kind of person you expected wearing such a uniform?
A. I really couldn't tell you that. Perhaps you could put it in more simple terms, rephrase your question.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Could you, for example, identify a person as a Muslim or, just another notion, as a Serb, by uniform?
A. No. 2284
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: So when being, for example, on the street and meeting a person in a blue camouflage uniform, did you believe this was a policeman, a person from the military forces, or from another group?
A. The blue camouflage uniform was worn exclusively by the police, never by the army. There could be no mistake about that. The only question was to which police force they belong, the police station in Prijedor, the police station in Banja Luka, or some other force. When the war began, Muslims did not wear any uniforms at all, including that one. So you couldn't be confused about who was wearing them.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Judge Fassi Fihri.
JUDGE FASSI FIHRI: [Interpretation] Witness B, would you like to tell the Trial Chamber about the property that you and your family had to renounce.
A. I had my own house in Prijedor, and my father had also signed away his house. And my brother also owned a house. So all of us had to leave behind all of our houses and the land that we owned.
JUDGE FASSI FIHRI: [Interpretation] You said that Muslims were referred to as "Green Berets." Could you explain to the Trial Chamber why, why were they called Green Berets?
A. I don't know why they were called Green Berets. Probably because they wore green caps. But I don't know the exact reason why they were called that way. That term was mostly used by Serbs.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Judge Vassylenko.
JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Witness B, in your statement of 15 and 16 2285 January of 1999, and 2nd of March the same year, while describing -- the statement, page 00768486. While describing the events related to your arrest, you said that: "No killing or serious beatings took place at the time of my arrest." And further on, you describe the beating of a Croat and explain that, I quote: "I guess somebody had given orders that there should be no killing, and that killings ended. Cleansing took place after some kind of official permission."
Do you have any idea what persons, what officials, what bodies granted permission to kill, to beat, to cleanse?
A. I assumed that we were there in that place that was described in the street where there were many Serbian houses. We were at the junction. The next street was practically all Serb houses. So probably somebody ordered -- or I don't know how to say this. That, at that point, there are no killings, and that's what it says in the statement. And then that one Serb soldier, he didn't tell us, but he said that in front of us. So by that, we concluded that someone had ordered them that they mustn't kill anyone.
JUDGE VASSYLENKO: But my question is: What is your opinion? Who ordered soldiers to kill, to beat?
A. To kill? At that time, in my street, nobody was killed. And had somebody issued such an order, I don't know who that could have been, who could have or who did issue an order for the population to be killed.
JUDGE VASSYLENKO: Thank you.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then before we conclude now, the statement of Witness B, there was still a reservation as regards Exhibit S12B. Any 2286 objections from the side of the Defence regarding this document? It was on the release 5 August, 1992.
MR. OSTOJIC: Yes, Your Honour, it was my understanding that we were going to reserve S12B for Wednesday, although we are prepared to tell the Court that we do object on purposes of authenticity, and also specifically in that document, although I don't have it in front of me, the written language on the right-hand side, we're still attempting to verify whether -- and there has been no testimony, quite frankly, from my recollection, who wrote that down and whether the handwriting matches either the person who signed it on the left-hand side of the document or immediately above that document on the right side. So with that, those are our objections, but we would like, if we can, until Wednesday, at the very least, when we reconvene, to clarify and perhaps even amend some of our objections on that. But if not, those would be our objections currently, today.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then let's decide on this on Wednesday.
MR. KOUMJIAN: I'd prefer to ask a few questions of the witness related to that objection while he's here. And if I could, I also had one brief --
THE COURT: Sorry. This was the reason I think it's always better to have the discussion on such exhibits in the presence of the witness.
MR. KOUMJIAN: Perhaps if the exhibit could be put on the ELMO. Also, with Your Honour's permission, I also have a very brief follow-up to Your Honour's question regarding the uniforms. Excuse me, maybe not put it on the screen. I realise it has his 2287 name on it, so it would be publicly broadcast. If the witness could just have it in front of him. Thank you. Ms. Sutherland reminded me of that. Thank you.
Further re-examined by Mr. Koumjian:
Q. Sir, there are two signatures that you testified you obtained prior to getting your release from Trnopolje that appear on this document. Is that correct?
A. Yes, that's correct.
THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
MR. KOUMJIAN:
Q. And on the right-hand side, is a signature that you testified was, I believe, Pero Curguz, the head of the Red Cross in Prijedor. Is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. How do you know that Pero Curguz signed that document?
A. Because he signed it -- I was present when he signed it.
Q. And I believe you testified regarding this yesterday, but the signature that you identified as Slobodan Kuruzovic, how do you recognise that signature?
A. First of all, he signed the document in my presence. And second, had he not signed it in my presence, Mr. Kuruzovic was my mathematics teacher for four years. So there can be no mistake there, either.
MR. KOUMJIAN: I would ask the Court to accept the document.
MR. OSTOJIC: I appreciate the clarification. I do have one comment to add to that. In the direct testimony, it was clear that the 2288 witness identified the signature by simply reading the signature. And I'm thankful for my learned friend for clearing up that, in fact, it was in his presence, which would remove one of our objections on the foundation. However, I don't think it's appropriate, quite candidly, that after my learned friend and the OTP concludes their testimony, that they can reinvite the witness to ask questions remaining critical to this document, I believe is who wrote the language immediately below the signature. That hasn't been established either in the direct or the questioning currently by my learned friend. We recognise now and accept the fact that Witness B was present during the signing of this and his recognition of the name on the left side as well. However, critical to this, and further questioning, is why would someone write below that and not sign his name under the document, which are reserved more for arguments. But none of that has been established to date who wrote the language beneath the name of Mr. Kuruzovic -- Pero Curguz, I'm sorry.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The Bench is always grateful for contributions bringing us to the truth, so therefore we shall make advantage of both systems, common-law system, civil law system, and of course it's for you now, after we have heard the contributions and the other questions from the OTP yourself, to have some additional questions. But please indicate something about the time limit. We have already done more than possible, especially with -- regarding human rights of the interpreters.
MR. KOUMJIAN: I don't have any further questions on the document. I have a brief question regarding the uniform.
Q. Sir, His Honour Judge Schomburg asked you regarding the blue 2289 camouflage uniforms. Do you recall the police or the people that you saw in -- that you identified as police in your testimony who escorted the buses who left Keraterm the day the camp closed, the two buses of people who disappeared? What uniforms those police were?
A. Blue camouflage police uniforms.
Q. And is it correct -- well, I'll ask you again. The police that were escorting the convoy over Vlasic mountain that included several buses of men that disappeared, do you recall the colour of uniforms of those police officers?
A. They were blue.
Q. And is it correct that you've indicated that you recognised some of these police officers as being from Prijedor?
A. Yes.
MR. KOUMJIAN: No further questions.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Of course, it's now the opportunity for the Defence.
MR. LUKIC: We don't have any more questions, Your Honour.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you. Then I have to thank, first of all, Witness B for coming here and giving us some insights of that what has happened in the past. And if I may overstep my mandate here, let me personally say I hope that you will have a safe and good future (redacted) (redacted).
We resume at 15.15.
MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, may I raise a matter. There's two matters I'm concerned about, I'd ask for redactions. Your Honour's last 2290 comment, we may have to redact for witness protection reasons from the record.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Was it -- we were in closed session yesterday, yes? Yes.
MR. KOUMJIAN: And I'm not sure whether when I asked that the -- my fault, that when I asked that document be put on the ELMO, if there was a shot of that on the video, I ask that it be redacted. I don't know if it was or not.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Agreed.
[The witness withdrew]
--- Recess taken at 2.44 p.m.
--- On resuming at 3.18 p.m.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Please be seated. One real technical matter that I learned in the break, normally it shouldn't be a problem that we have all our microphones switched on. But in case we have voice distortion, then it causes problems, and then we should take care to have only the microphone on when we are really speaking out.
We turn to the next witness, Witness C. Same protections as -- or protective measures as Witness B to be applied. May the witness be brought in.
MR. KOUMJIAN: Your Honour, I've notified Defence counsel of this, but just to put it officially on the record, the witness we anticipated for next Friday, because we are running behind schedule and in order to further confer with my office regarding the possible identification 2291 issues, in the convenience of that witness, that witness prefers to be moved back, and we plan on bringing that witness the 22nd of May. And the witness will testify a few days later.
[The witness entered court]
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Good afternoon, Witness. May the solemn declaration be taken.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you, Witness. You may be seated. And first of all, I apologise, but we will address you as "Witness C." It's a protective measure in your own interest. I hope you can understand this.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then please proceed with the examination-in-chief.
MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
WITNESS: WITNESS C
[Witness answered through interpreter] Examined by Ms. Sutherland:
MS. SUTHERLAND: First of all, could the witness please be shown this piece of paper. If it could be shown to the Defence first. It has the witness's name on it, and if the witness could just confirm, without saying his name, that that is his correct name.
Q. Sir, is that your correct name on the piece of paper?
A. Yes, it is.
MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I would like to go into private 2292 session to ask the witness some background information, if the Defence have no objection.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I can see no objections, so may it please, private session.
(Private session)
(20 lines redacted) 2293BLANK PAGE 2294
(page redacted) 2295
(22 lines redacted) [Open session].
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Confirmed. Please proceed.
MS. SUTHERLAND: 2296
Q. Sir, have you ever been a member of a political party?
A. No.
Q. Do you recall the 30th of April, 1992?
A. Yes.
Q. What happened on that date?
A. On the 30th of April, I left for work in the morning, around 6.00 a.m. by bus, headed towards Celpac, that is, Prijedor. That morning, I waited longer for the bus than in the past.
Q. Sir, if I can just interrupt you, was Prijedor taken over by the Serb authorities on the 30th of April, 1992?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you hear anything on the radio about this takeover?
A. Throughout that day, we listened to the radio at work, and they broadcast nonstop an announcement that the SDS had seized power in the Prijedor municipality.
Q. After that date, was your freedom of movement restricted in any way?
A. Yes.
Q. In what way?
A. When you went to work and back.
Q. What happened when you went to work and back?
A. Every time there would be a control on the bus by Serb soldiers, Serb military forces. The buses were frequently stopped at checkpoints in Prijedor. They would get on the bus to carry out their check, two or three soldiers in a group. And they demanded to see the IDs of all 2297 passengers.
Q. Were these checkpoints manned purely by Serbian soldiers?
A. Yes.
Q. Did the Muslims set up checkpoints outside of Hambarine?
A. Yes.
Q. When did they establish these checkpoints?
A. After the 30th of April. I don't remember the exact date, but it was after the 30th of April.
Q. Why did the Muslims feel they had to set up checkpoints?
A. That was done for safety reasons, to provide security for the settlement of Hambarine after the takeover by the SDS. Before that, there was a checkpoint manned by the Serb military, or rather the Serb police in Tukovi. I think that that is one of the reasons why the checkpoint in Hambarine was set up.
Q. How many checkpoints were there near Hambarine?
A. There were two.
Q. The men that were on the checkpoints, were they armed?
A. The checkpoint that I have already mentioned, the one in the field in Hambarine, was manned by armed men who had rifles.
Q. What were the type of these weapons -- of these rifles?
A. Those were semi-automatic rifles, and I think they were old, M-48, I think.
Q. You mentioned a second checkpoint. Were the men armed at that checkpoint?
A. The other checkpoint was manned by unarmed people, but they were 2298 on guard duty in order to be able to inform the citizenry in time in case of attack or shooting.
Q. Sir, did you continue to work after the 30th of April, 1992?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you cease to work?
A. On the 22nd of May.
Q. When you returned home that day, were you stopped at a checkpoint?
A. When I was going back home from work, the bus was stopped in Prijedor near the Ribar restaurant.
Q. Did the bus continue on to Tukovi?
A. Yes.
Q. And at some stage, did you get out and walk through the fields to your house?
A. Yes.
Q. When you arrived home, were you told about a shooting incident at the checkpoint?
A. Yes.
Q. Later on that night, the night of the 22nd of May, 1992, did someone issue an ultimatum to the village of Hambarine?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you recall who issued that ultimatum?
A. I don't know them by name, but I know that there were Serb soldiers, Serb troops, in fact, the Serb military command.
Q. How were the villages told about this ultimatum?
A. They came out into the field on a tank, on the 22nd of May, in the 2299 evening. And they presented this ultimatum: Namely, that the policeman Aziz Aliskovic should surrender. In the event of his failure to surrender, or be handed over to them, Hambarine would be attacked.
Q. Did anything else happen that night?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you please tell the Court what happened.
A. Four tank discharges were fired at Hambarine, and that was a threat to the population of Hambarine.
THE INTERPRETER: The witness can be told that he doesn't have to worry about us. He can speak at a normal rate.
MS. SUTHERLAND:
Q. Sir, did you hear what the interpreter has just said? After these four rounds had been fired, what did you do?
A. When those four shells were fired that night, we were at that other checkpoint which had no weapons. And we had to withdraw to the basement.
Q. The following day, was the ultimatum carried out?
A. No.
Q. Did anything happen in the village of Hambarine around noon on the 23rd of May, 1992?
A. Yes. It was then that the shelling of Hambarine began.
Q. What direction was the shelling coming from?
A. The shelling came from three directions, from the northwest, which is the Karane area. The second direction was the area of Urije. And the third was the area of Topic, or the Topic hill. 2300
MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honours, at this moment I would like to show the witness a map, if it could be marked Prosecution Exhibit 13 -- 14.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: No objections. Admitted into evidence.
MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, a copy of this map was disclosed to the Defence, and registry has a copy of the map also. I have three copies in colour here, and three copies in black and white. Would Your Honours prefer a copy or a black and white?
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: We are fine with...
MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you. If the map can be placed on the ELMO, if the witness can orient himself with the map for a brief moment first.
Q. Sir, if the usher could place the map on the ELMO, and if you could point with the pointer next to you, in front of you, to the three places where the direction of the shelling was coming from.
MS. SUTHERLAND: Usher, you may have to move the map -- yeah.
Q. First, if you could point to Urije.
A. [Indicates].
Q. And that is northeast of Prijedor?
A. Northeast, yes, in my opinion.
Q. Whereabouts is Karani, the direction?
A. [indicates].
Q. Sir, if you could tell us the town where Karani is near.
A. Karani is roughly to the northwest, upwards of Brezicani. In my opinion, from the Prijedor Bosanski Novi at a 10 kilometre distance, you go to the right, and you reach Karani. It's approximately here. 2301
Q. Sir, when you looked at the map yesterday, were you able to locate the area of Karane?
A. Yes.
Q. And can you now point to Topic Brdo, please.
A. Yes. I have to turn to the other side. That's the Topic Brdo, Topic Hill. It's located somewhere here. I can't find its name here on the map. It's not far from Mijakovici.
Q. Sir, do you see the Prijedor-Sanski Most Road?
A. Prijedor-Sanski Most, yeah. This is Topic. I've found it. That's the area.
Q. Now, sir, I'm very sorry.
MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honours, what I omitted to do was get the witness to show us where Hambarine was before he pointed to the three directions of the shelling.
Q. Sir, if you could point out where Hambarine is on the map. And if the audiovisual director could zoom into that area, please.
A. That's Hambarine.
Q. Zoom out a little.
MS. SUTHERLAND: Could you zoom out a little, please. Thank you. Thank you very much. I've finished with that exhibit now.
THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, if I may, to clarify with the exhibits, the name sheets with the witness name is marked S13 and it's a confidential exhibit, and this map is marked S14.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Thank you for the clarification. You may proceed now. 2302
MS. SUTHERLAND:
Q. Sir, how long did the shelling last?
A. The shelling lasted -- well, it started around 12.00 and didn't stop until 6.30 roughly, in the afternoon.
Q. During that six and a half hours, was the shelling constant or intermittent?
A. The shelling was constant.
Q. After the shelling stopped, did any forces approach the village?
A. Yes.
Q. What sort of forces?
A. Those were Serb military forces armed with tanks, armed personnel carriers and infantry.
Q. What did the villages of Hambarine do at this point?
A. At that point, the inhabitants of the Hambarine village had to retreat towards the south side, or rather, the woods of Kurevo.
Q. Was this men, women, and children that were fleeing to the Kurevo forest?
A. Yes.
Q. The Muslim men that were at the checkpoints, are you aware whether any of them were killed that day?
A. Yes.
Q. How many men were killed?
A. Two.
Q. Did you spend the night in the Kurevo woods?
A. Yes. 2303
Q. Was there anybody left in the village of Hambarine that day?
A. No.
Q. They had all fled to the woods?
A. Yes.
MS. SUTHERLAND: If the witness can be shown SK14 again, please. I'm sorry, S14.
Q. Sir, can you just point to where the Kurevo woods are, please.
A. These are the woods of Kurevo.
MS. SUTHERLAND: Can the AV director zoom back a little bit so we can see Hambarine.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So as I said, these are the woods of Kurevo.
Q. Sir, a moment ago, I asked you about the shelling in the village of Hambarine. Where was the shelling directed?
A. All the houses were shelled in Hambarine, as well as the mosque in Hambarine, the two mosques there.
Q. Sir, can you just point to the road leading out from Hambarine to the woods.
A. Yes. Hambarine is here. This is the road, this black line. These are the checkpoints through the woods. Through the woods, you can get to Ljubija as well.
Q. Sir, can you point to the road where the tanks and infantry were coming towards Hambarine?
A. Yes.
Q. Which road is this? 2304
A. This is the road that goes from Prijedor towards Ljubija, through Tukovi. It's this road here. So they came from Prijedor via Tukovi, and then took this road towards Hambarine.
Q. And the road that you're pointing to has the words -- and excuse me my pronunciation -- Durici just beneath the road. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Sir, to your knowledge, were there armed fighters or police in the houses in the village of Hambarine?
A. Could you please elaborate a little on your question. Could you please explain that to me.
Q. You mentioned a moment ago that the village of Hambarine was being shelled. Where were all the people -- where were all the villagers?
A. All the villagers, the women, the children, the adults, they were all in cellars during the shelling.
Q. Were there any armed men or police in these houses, or the mosque?
A. No.
MS. SUTHERLAND: Perhaps, usher, if you could just leave the map on the ELMO.
Q. Witness, I don't want to ask you any more questions at the moment about the map.
Between the 23rd of May and the 9th of June, did you stay in Ljubija and in Carakovo and the woods between Carakovo and Hambarine?
A. Yes.
THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
MS. SUTHERLAND: 2305
Q. I'm sorry. Can you just point to the village of Carakovo on the map, please. And also to Ljubija.
A. This is Carakovo. This is the area of Carakovo. Ljubija is this part here. But there is Donja Ljubija and Ljubija, i.e. Gornji Ljubija.
Q. Just before we move on, I'm sorry to go back to Hambarine and the shelling, was there any artillery or any gunfire coming out of the village of Hambarine when the army was shelling the village?
A. No. We only had our defence point there, which defended the approach to Hambarine with infantry.
Q. Approximately how many people were at this checkpoint?
A. About ten.
Q. If I can move on now, on the 9th of June, did you return home for food?
A. Yes, I did.
MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, if we can go into private session very briefly for the witness to name some relatives of his.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Private session.
(Private session)
(7 lines redacted) 2306
(5 lines redacted)
(Open session)
MS. SUTHERLAND: Are we in open session?
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes.
MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you.
Q. What, if anything, did you see happen to this cafe?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you see?
A. That day, I saw a red truck arriving in front of his shop or house. I saw four soldiers come out. They were armed. They went into the shop and the cafe. They took the goods from the shop, from the cafe. They took all the musical instruments from the cafe, which were used in the cafe before the war.
Q. Sir, how were these men dressed?
A. Those people were wearing drab olive uniforms. Two of the four wore helmets on their heads.
Q. Did you recognise any of these men?
A. No.
Q. Did anything further happen to this cafe?
A. The next day, the cafe was set on fire, together with the shop and the house. 2307BLANK PAGE 2308
Q. Were you told the names of these men that had been to the shop the day before?
A. At that time, no. But later, I found out that jobs like this were done by people from Ljeskare.
Q. Where is that situated?
A. Ljeskare is in the direction of Prijedor-Ljubija immediately after Hambarine, to be more precise. It borders on Hambarine.
Q. Is it to the upper side of the Prijedor-Ljubija Road?
A. It's after Hambarine, when you go from Prijedor towards Ljubija, Ljeskare is after Hambarine.
Q. Sir, on the 11th of June, did you move to a relative's garage?
A. Yes.
MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, can we go into private session just for a moment.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: What's the reason, please?
MS. SUTHERLAND: Because the witness will name his relatives.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Private session.
(Private session)
(7 lines redacted) 2309
(9 lines redacted)
(Open session)
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Confirmed.
MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you.
Q. Did you leave the garage that day?
A. On that day, I went to the garage together with my brother (redacted) and my cousin (redacted).
Q. Did you leave the garage that day?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you see your mother later on that day?
A. After 15 or 20 minutes, I saw her. She was carrying my child under two years of age. And she told me that my brother had been killed in that garage.
Q. Without mentioning his name, was this your older brother?
A. Yes. That was my older brother (redacted). I didn't mention the name when you asked me who was in the garage --
Q. I'm sorry, sir. We're in open session. Can you -- 2310
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: The name will be redacted at 16.16.24.
MS. SUTHERLAND:
Q. Sir, can you tell the Court what your mother told you happened in the garage that day without mentioning the names of your relatives, please.
A. I was told that my brother was killed, and that my wife was wounded.
Q. Were you told who the perpetrators were?
A. I was told that this was committed by four Serb police officers who broke into the garage and killed my brother.
Q. Were you told what they were wearing?
A. I was told that they wore blue uniforms, light blue shirts and darker trousers, navy blue trousers.
Q. Was anybody in the garage armed that day?
A. No.
Q. Before you left the garage, what clothes was everyone wearing, civilian clothes or military clothes?
A. They were all in civilian clothes.
Q. I want to ask you some questions now about an incident in the village of Behlici on the 1st of July, 1992. Do you recall that date?
A. Yes.
Q. Where were you on the 1st of July, 1992?
A. I was in Carakovo.
Q. What did you see?
A. On that day, a car came to Carakovo, to the Behlici settlement, 2311 and Aziz Behlic was killed at that time. Hasan Osmancevic was wounded. The son of Hasan Osmancevic was also killed. The son of Aziz Behlic was wounded. Azra Behlic was wounded. Another young man was killed also whose name I don't know.
Q. How far away were you from this incident?
A. I was about 250 to 300 metres away.
Q. How were these people killed and wounded?
A. Those people were killed by firearms from an automatic weapon.
Q. Did you recognise any of the people that perpetrated these crimes?
A. Yes.
Q. Who were they?
A. Mico Jurusic and Mladjo Jurusic.
Q. How long had you known these people for?
A. I knew them a year or two before the war. We didn't have too much contact privately, socially. I know them from work. I used to see them at work.
Q. What were they wearing on this day?
A. They wore blue uniforms, light-blue shirt, and darker trousers.
Q. Was this a police uniform?
A. Yes.
Q. The people that were at Aziz Behlic's house, what were they wearing?
A. Civilian clothes.
Q. What were their ethnicity?
A. Bosniaks. 2312
Q. Were they armed?
A. No.
Q. Sir, did you stay in the woods until the 8th of July, 1992?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you picked up in a car that day?
A. I was captured on the 8th of July and taken in a vehicle to Keraterm.
Q. Did you know the persons that picked you up?
A. No.
Q. How were they dressed?
A. They wore camouflage uniforms.
Q. Were they armed?
A. They were armed. They had automatic rifles.
Q. How were you dressed?
A. I was in civilian clothes.
Q. Were you armed?
A. No.
Q. When you arrived in Keraterm -- first of all, what is Keraterm?
A. Before the war, Keraterm was a ceramic tiles factory. During the war, it was a camp for Bosniak Muslims.
MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I have a number of photographs here that we would like to put in as one exhibit. They total 42 photographs. I want to show the witness only two of them today. Can they be marked as one exhibit, S15, and then each photograph has an ERN number, so they are quite distinct photographs. 2313
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Yes. The registry agrees, so I do.
MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I have the bundle of photographs here for the registry. I've taken the two out that I wish to show the witness today. So, if the witness can be shown this photograph. The Defence have been provided with a copy of these photographs, Your Honour. Just the first one.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: May we please call them S15-1, -2, and so on.
MS. SUTHERLAND:
Q. Witness, there is a photograph on the ELMO beside you which has an ERN number 02006265. Can you please tell me what's shown in that photograph.
A. This photograph depicts Keraterm, the entrance to Keraterm. Behind, you can see the chimney from the brick factory behind it.
Q. Thank you.
MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honours, we will provide an index to these 42 photographs to the registry. We have to the Defence, and we will give one to the registry as well. At the moment, it's marked 8B.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: But please, no confusion. In the order of appearance, it may be S15-1.
MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
Q. Sir, when you arrived at Keraterm, did you see Mico Jurusic in the camp?
A. Yes.
Q. What was he doing?
A. I saw him next to a truck that had just arrived, and he was busy 2314 with this truck.
Q. Do you know whose truck it was?
A. The truck belonged to Samir Music from Carakovo.
Q. What was Samir's ethnicity?
A. Samir was a Bosniak Muslim.
Q. Were you interrogated in Keraterm?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you mistreated in any way?
A. When I was interrogated, I was hit with a police baton in the face.
Q. What were you questioned about?
A. They asked me where I had been, in which woods. They asked me where I was caught, where I was going.
Q. Were you beaten again that day in Keraterm?
A. On that day, I was beaten again. In a different place in Keraterm.
Q. Did you know the person who beat you?
A. Out of four or five men, I didn't know anyone personally. But by describing them later, I found out that one of these men were known. And I found out his name.
Q. What was this person's name, and can you please give a description of this person?
A. This person's last name was Banovic. I don't know his name. It's Predrag or Nenad. But he's a Banovic. He was short, of dark complexion, and dark, in fact, black, long hair, combed to the back. He wore 2315 eyeglasses above his eyes, and he used them to keep his hair combed back.
Q. Of what build was he?
A. He was of slight build, short. Not very strong.
Q. What was he wearing?
A. He was wearing a camouflage uniform.
Q. What were you beaten with?
A. I was beaten with a knuckle duster, with a police truncheon, with chains, with various types of coiled wire, rifle butts. I was kicked by people wearing boots.
Q. Where were you taken after this beating?
A. After this beating, I was taken to a room filled with other inmates.
Q. What was the ethnicity of these inmates?
A. Those inmates were Bosniaks.
Q. What was the condition of the people in this room?
A. The people in that room were in very bad shape, beaten up, black and blue. Many of them were moaning and crying, asking for water. Some people were difficult to recognise. There were many of them in that room. There was not room enough even to sit down, let alone lie down.
Q. Approximately how many people -- I'm sorry. Approximately how many people were in that room?
A. It's difficult to estimate, but I would say about 200, although I stress it's difficult to estimate. But the room was packed, and my assessment is about 200.
Q. Were you ever told why you were being detained in Keraterm? 2316
A. No, never.
Q. The next morning, were you taken to the Omarska camp?
A. The next morning, I was driven away to Omarska camp on a bus.
Q. What sort of bus?
A. It was a civilian bus that had been used before the war for civilian purposes, for the transport of passengers.
Q. Did the bus have a logo or writing on the outside of the bus?
A. I think it had the logo of Autotransport Prijedor.
Q. How many persons were on this bus with you?
A. There were 50 to 60 people there with me.
Q. I'm sorry. If I can just go back to Keraterm, were you aware of which room you were detained in Keraterm for that one day and night?
A. I was in Room Number 2.
Q. You were detained in Omarska from the 9th of July until the 6th of August, 1992. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you detained first in the white house for approximately 12 to 15 days?
A. Yes.
Q. How many persons were in the room where you were?
A. There were at least 60 to 70 people approximately in that one room.
Q. Were you interrogated at Omarska?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. On how many occasions? 2317
A. I was interrogated twice.
Q. The first time you were interrogated, where was that?
A. That was in a different room, above the canteen that had operated before the war. And I was interrogated in an office upstairs.
MS. SUTHERLAND: Can the witness be shown the second photograph in that bundle.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: This may be, then, S15-2.
MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. That has been ERN number 00409596.
Q. What is shown in that photograph?
A. You can see the Omarska camp on this picture.
Q. Is that how you remember it?
A. Yes.
MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honours, this is a photograph of a model of the Omarska camp. The model is in the basement of the Tribunal, and it certainly wouldn't fit inside this Court.
Q. Witness, can you just point out the buildings that are on that photograph, please.
A. This is the white house to which I was brought on the 9th of July. Those are the rooms with the canteen downstairs, while upstairs, there were offices or rooms where inmates were interrogated. Downstairs, on this other side, there were more rooms for inmates. This is the entrance to the canteen. And if you take the stairs, you will find the offices on the first floor.
Q. Sir, the building that you're pointing to, as you look at the 2318 photograph, is the littler of the two red buildings, and it's the building to your right. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And the entrance that you just pointed to was on the left side of that building?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know what the larger red building is?
A. Before the war, these were hangars and garages used for the repair of heavy machinery operated in the Omarska mine. So these hangars were used to store the machines, the equipment, and tools needed for repairs.
Q. Thank you. Do you know when you were taken for interrogation who interrogated you?
A. No.
Q. Were you mistreated during the first interrogation?
A. Yes.
Q. How were you mistreated?
A. Some questions were put to me, and I was beaten by those two men. I had nothing to tell them or to confess, but I got beaten nevertheless. I was beaten up there. I was in very bad physical condition.
Q. What sort of questions were you being asked?
A. Some odd questions. I have to apologise, but I have to say this: Those were absolutely stupid, nonsensical questions. And whatever I answered, I would be beaten up. No matter what I said, whether I said yes or no, I would still get beaten. They asked me if I knew Mirza Mujadzic. 2319 However, they knew him better than I did. If I said I didn't know him, I would be beaten because I said no. If I said I knew him, I got beaten again, and they would say, in addition: "You were his collaborator, you had planned this together in advance." Briefly, if I said I knew him, it was their version that I was the same as Mirza Mujadzic, and his collaborator. If I said I didn't know him, I was lying. Both ways, I got beaten, no matter what I answered.
Q. Sir, who was Mirza Mujadzic?
A. Mirza Mujadzic was a doctor before the war, a physician. And I know him as a doctor. He had many patients. And it's true that Mirza Mujadzic was the president of the SDA for the Prijedor municipality. That is common knowledge. Everybody knows that throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina, the entire political arena of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the entire parliament. Mirza Mujadzic was elected lawfully and was a deputy to the BH parliament.
Q. Thank you, sir.
MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honours, I notice the time and that you wanted to stop sitting at 5.00 p.m. today. I have perhaps another 20 minutes worth of questions with the witness. Is it at all possible -- I don't know how long cross-examination would take with this witness, but are we able to indulge the interpreters and yourself to sit any longer today, so that this witness may be able to go home?
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: I really believe it's better that we can concentrate on the single questions, and when we have time enough for the cross-examination. And therefore I would appreciate when we would stop 2320BLANK PAGE 2321 for today and go on the next time with the direct examination and then the cross-examination. Is it correct for you?
MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes. I just hope the witness's employer will indulge us.
JUDGE SCHOMBURG: Then, let's call it a day for today. And we resume as scheduled, Wednesday morning, 9.00.
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.50 p.m., to be reconvened on
Wednesday, the 1st day of May, 2002, at 9.00 a.m.