Thursday, 29 March 2001
[The witness entered court]
[The accused entered court]
--- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic, you are to commence your cross-examination.
MR. VUCICEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
WITNESS: WITNESS E [Resumed]
[Witness answered through interpreter] Cross-examined by Mr. Vucicevic:
Q. Good morning, Witness E.
THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Vucicevic, your microphone.
Q. Good morning. My name is Dusan Vucicevic. I'm an attorney from Chicago, and I represent Dragan Kolundzija in this matter.
MR. RYNEVELD: Excuse me for interrupting.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
MR. RYNEVELD: Our headsets don't appear to be working and although I can hear Mr. Vucicevic, I don't anticipate I will be able to hear the witness' answer. Nothing is working on our control panel.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Let us have that matter checked. Is it working now?
MR. RYNEVELD: This panel still doesn't, but I have an alternate one that will work. The usher has solved our problem. 1344
THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Ryneveld.
MR. RYNEVELD: I'm just going to say that the panel still doesn't work but the usher has fixed our problem. We have an alternate source of input, that's fine.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. You may continue.
Q. Witness E, you testified yesterday that you were arrested by soldiers and also after some detour, you were taken to Keraterm where you noticed the soldiers who have checked you out, frisked you?
A. The soldiers, the guards, those who were with us who escorted the bus.
Q. You also testified when you came to the Keraterm, you did not know anybody who was there. Were those men who were there soldiers, but not the guards that came a few days later; is that correct?
A. It is, yes.
Q. So you did not notice -- you didn't see Kole there when you came. So you saw Kole a few days later. If you could approximately say how many days later?
A. I wouldn't know.
Q. Okay. Now, I'm going to ask you just quickly a few questions that you have testified about yesterday, and to amplify them some. You said that you never saw any beatings, torture, killings, or any mistreatment of prisoners on Kole's shift; isn't that true?
A. It is.
Q. As a matter of fact, on Kole's shift there was several things that 1345 were done throughout which made your stay there somewhat easier; isn't that correct?
Q. You testified about your brother and you using the phone, but somehow the transcript showed that it was only you and your brother that used the phone. You meant the other people used the phone also.
A. Perhaps. I did not see that.
Q. On how many occasions have you used the phone on Kole's shift?
A. Once or maybe twice, twice, I think.
Q. And if you -- if we take as a reference point, the beating that you suffered by Crni on his shift, was the first time that you used the phone before you were beaten up?
A. I couldn't say. I'm not sure. I don't know exactly. No, I did not use the telephone after I was beaten.
Q. Do you know whether your brother had used the phone to inform your family that you are doing well, whatever it means under the circumstances of your confinement, but that you are still alive after the shooting on Room 3?
Q. Let me move to food and water supplies. Are you aware that Kole took several prisoners on many occasions to the water well in the neighbourhood to fetch some cold, clean water for drinking?
A. I know nothing about it, believe me.
Q. Do you know that Kole took a few inmates home to change, to see their families and they brought them back home? 1346
A. Yes. There were several of them.
Q. If you know, who were those inmates? Would you please state their names.
A. I don't know their names. I just know them very superficially.
Q. It was very unusual and nobody has ever expected that something like that could happen in Keraterm; isn't that true?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. You remember that Kole had given food which was delivered to the guards but that was not consumed by the guards, that he had given to the prisoners?
Q. Would you please describe where was the food, that food for the guards, delivered? Where was it taken, and how were the prisoners selected who were -- who were fed with that additional food?
A. I don't remember how they were getting their food. I really couldn't remember that. But he would give the food and then tell those young lads and said, "Give it to those young lads." You know, there were some young lads, 14, 15 years old.
Q. Exactly. Your recollection on that point is just enlightening the court and all of us, but another point, if you could remember, was he, Kole, selecting those men or he had allowed the inmates to select them?
A. I do not know.
Q. Thank you. You said that you saw Zigic came once or so on Kole's shift but he didn't beat anybody at that time, didn't abuse anybody at all; that's correct? 1347
A. I cannot remember all of that now because it was a long time ago, and one simply forgets things after all that time. Maybe he did come. I'm not sure.
Q. Thank you. That was indeed a long time ago, and I appreciate your answer. You said that -- when you testified on direct, and that was yesterday, in the transcript that is page 59, line 4, you said that you saw Kole on the night, on 24th of July, when he took over the shift; that's correct?
A. I don't know which date it was. I'm not sure about the date because we did not know the dates. I only know that Kole once took over the shift and locked the dormitories around 10.00.
Q. So when you saw Kole that night, where was he standing when you saw him for the first time?
A. At the door. He locked the door, he left, and then we couldn't see him.
Q. So that -- isn't it true that that evening, and that afternoon, the door of your room was open?
A. At night? You mean at night?
Q. No, what I --
A. After 10.00 the door was always locked. Commanders locked the door to avoid then something happening or prevent somebody coming out.
Q. Exactly. My question then just logically follows. If that was locked at 10.00, it was open prior to that and it was open throughout the early evening and throughout the day; that's true?
A. Yes. 1348
Q. And in your statement that you have given to the Office of the Prosecutor dated August 15, 2000, which you have read -- strike it -- which was read to you in Bosnian, and it was true, which you had signed, and I'm going to read it to you in Bosnian because I have a Bosnian version here. You said: [Interpretation] "I did not see before the massacre of people in Room 3 any -- I did not see any preparations before the massacre of people in Room 3." [In English] You said that in -- on August 15, didn't you?
A. Well, I suppose I did, if it says so.
Q. Okay. Since that was just an ordinary day, on that day, you went out to drink water, didn't you?
A. I don't understand the question, I'm sorry.
Q. On that day, prior to the incident in Room 3, the shooting at Room 3, since that was an ordinary day, you went out to drink some water throughout that day, any time from early in the morning until the time that the doors were locked?
A. I cannot say, really, because I just don't know exactly. I don't remember. I'm not sure.
Q. And on that day, being that it was an ordinary day, you went out to have the meal, that one meal that was delivered to you once a day, didn't you?
A. Yes, at 7.00 in the evening.
Q. And that meal was just delivered as on any other day, wasn't it?
A. No. I don't remember that it was every day because at times there was no electricity, so sometimes it was delayed, but it was usually around 1349 7.00.
Q. So do you remember whether there was any electricity in Keraterm compound on that day?
A. I don't remember -- no, no, there was not.
Q. And the only way that you could know whether there was electricity or not, it was according to the water that was pumped out of the hydrants; correct?
A. Well, not necessarily. I do not know how they pumped the water or where they did it from. At times the hydrant would drip without electricity of anything. But more or less, yes, at that time when there was electricity, there was water too usually.
Q. So Witness E, I'm just trying to kind of, you know, put some landmarks here for Court to, you know, understand what was happening there. And if there was anything else that -- throughout daytime, any other indicators throughout the daytime that could tell you whether there was electricity, please help us.
A. I don't remember. I don't think that there was electricity then because we had electricity very seldom.
Q. So do you remember then whether you received water on that day by means of water tank, tanker truck, that was delivering that water very frequently?
A. No. It was the tanker from the public utilities company 4th of July, and at times it would come from the fire brigade.
Q. So in order to know there were no water -- there was no water on that day, and to have received the food, you had to go out of the room on 1350 that day, didn't you?
A. Excuse me, I don't understand. Could you please reword it?
Q. You have already testified that you had taken some food on that day that, you know, that there was no electricity on that day because there was no water there. So in order to have seen all of this, you had to come out and walk in front of Room 4.
Q. Did you see, when you went out, any prisoners being beaten in front of -- on the grass in front of the Rooms 3 and 4?
A. At what time?
Q. Any time throughout that day.
A. Can't remember that. I don't think so. I don't know.
Q. So that's why you said it was just one of those ordinary days?
A. I don't know what an ordinary day is to you.
Q. You also testified that after the door was locked, you fell asleep; is that correct?
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. So --
MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honours, I don't know whether the voice is cutting here but my microphone is coming -- not microphone, but earphones are coming on and off. It might be a lose contact. If everything is okay, I will proceed.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Is the registrar aware of a problem, a technical problem? No, we are not aware of any problems. I think you should proceed. 1351
MR. VUCICEVIC: Okay. Thank you, Your Honour.
Q. And you felt so secure that you could go to sleep on that evening. Kole's shift was on. There was nothing to worry. As usual, you could go to sleep?
A. When he was there, we could have some rest and get some sleep.
Q. Could you try to remember what exactly woke you up and at what time?
A. I don't think I'm able to fix the time, but I think it must have been after midnight, but was it 1.00 or 2.00 or 3.00 in the morning, I couldn't say. We were woken up by a song from dormitory 3, and they were singing, "Who is saying? Who is lying? Serbia is small." That is what we heard, and that is what woke us up, because they were singing loudly.
Q. And there was a -- also a rancor or a quarrel and a fight among the men in Room 3 because that was a really thin wall between those two rooms? You could hear it, couldn't you?
A. I don't know what went on there, be they have a fight or what. I couldn't -- you can hear some things. You can hear people talking at the top of their voices or yelling. But why they were doing that, I have no idea.
Q. While they were yelling, could you hear, "We want to break out, we don't have air"?
A. I do not remember.
Q. In your statement, you indicated -- that you have given in 1995, you indicated that you were beaten up 42 days after your confinement in Keraterm. How did you -- this is not -- nothing to trick you, just to 1352BLANK PAGE 1353 inform us all. How did you ascertain that number, 42? You must have been counting the dates, marking them somehow.
A. I think we all counted days as of our arrival in the camp. That was the only thing. Otherwise, there was no way of knowing.
Q. Okay. And you are certain that Crni was still a shift commander at that time? You testified so, didn't you?
A. I don't understand the question. What do you mean?
Q. You have testified already that Crni, the shift commander who called you out of the room and then who was present while you were beaten, that he was indeed a shift commander on that night.
A. It was he who -- no, believe me, I really don't know whether he was the true shift commander. It was from what I saw, how he behaved, and what he did that I perceived him as such, but he was the one who took me away, and he beat me, he, Keli, and that pilot whom I know. That is, I only know that he was called a pilot. And the remaining three that were there, I did not know them at all.
Q. Yesterday when you were cross-examined by Mr. Petrovic, you said that at the beginning there were two shifts and commander of one shift was Crni. So do you change your mind from yesterday to today?
A. I do not remember.
Q. It is in the transcript. You, in your -- in your statement that you've given to the OTP on August 15, 2000, you have testified that you had had conversation with Kole after the shooting on Room 3. How many days after; do you remember?
A. Three days later. 1354
Q. Where did it take place, on what location in camp?
A. Well, somewhere in front of the dormitories, between the third and the fourth dormitory. We sat on the curb next to the asphalt path.
Q. And it wasn't only you and Kole sitting, but there were other men sitting there around Kole? That was the first time when Kole came back; isn't that correct?
A. I don't remember whether there was anybody else there. I know I talked with him, and I asked him for cigarettes.
Q. So doesn't that indicate that Kole is very good friend of yours when, after such a terrible occurrence, that you and him would sit alone to have a chat about it? Or perhaps there were the other people who knew him so well and they were around, but you perhaps don't remember?
A. I'm not sure I understood the question.
MR. VUCICEVIC: Could we have a closed session, please -- private session for a second?
JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
(8 lines redacted) 1355
(22 lines redacted)
JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we are back in open session.
MR. VUCICEVIC: 1356
Q. [Interpretation] You sat on the grass in front of Room 3, and this is how you stated that it is happened when Kole told you this. "I don't know what happened, but had I been there, it would not have happened."
Q. [In English] Objection in the translation. Not"there", here. I'll read it again. [Interpretation] "I don't know what happened, but had I been here, it would not have happened."
A. Yes, that is correct. Had I been here, it would not have happened.
Q. [In English] [Previous translation continues]... that's what you just heard, because if you heard anything else, you would have testified about it.
MR. VUCICEVIC: There is no answer on the transcript, Your Honour, that's why I am pausing.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness E, what is the answer to the question? Did you hear the question?
MR. VUCICEVIC: I believe the witness answered "Yes, absolutely," but somehow it didn't get on the transcript.
Q. Is that what you said, Witness E?
A. You asked me whether it was true that this was the only thing he said.
A. I said, "Absolutely."
Q. Thank you, Witness E. So since Kole was sitting on the place where the shooting -- where the shooting took place from or close 1357 thereabouts, he might have referred, if he was there, right on that spot where you were. He didn't say, "If I was in town," or, "If I was in camp." He just said, "If I was here." So that could have meant that one and you didn't inquire about anything else; is that correct? A possibility?
MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honour.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
MR. RYNEVELD: That, again, is for argument, not for speculation by the witness. All the witness can testify to is to what he heard said. He shouldn't be asked to speculate about what was going on in Kole's mind at the time. That's for argument by counsel, in our respectful submission.
MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, if I may respond to this objection.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
MR. VUCICEVIC: I think there was only one word here that has to be explained, and that one word was -- it's a general word, and I'm asking the witness to explain how he understood it, and what that word could have meant at that time. That's all what I'm asking. I'm not suggesting. I'm not testifying. I'm not putting any words in his mouth.
[Trial Chamber confers]
JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic, you may ask the witness what he, the witness, understood it to mean, not what he understood Kole to mean --
MR. VUCICEVIC: Okay.
JUDGE ROBINSON: -- by the statement. Let's try to move along.
MR. VUCICEVIC: Yes. This is going to be my last question. I 1358 just have another cite here so that the witness is going to be in a better position to answer it.
Q. Witness E, you have testified yesterday, and you have precisely used these words, [Interpretation] "Kole told me had I been here, nothing would have happened." [In English] But in your statement of August, you said something different, something similar. Not exactly the same words, different words. You said -- and I'm citing in Bosnian: [Interpretation] "I don't know what happened, but had I been here, it would not have happened." [In English] So you did not repeat word to word what Kole said. That was your general recollection for what he said; isn't that correct?
A. To me it all -- it is all the same, the way I see it. "Had I not been here," or "if I were here," or the third one, I don't know. It's all more or less the same. It depends on how people express themselves, but grammatically speaking, it's correct.
Q. And after he said this to you, you didn't ask him one single question, what did he mean by this statement?
A. I cannot recall now, but this was a long time ago, 1992, nine years ago, almost nine years ago. We can say it's nearly nine years. I cannot recall every word I exchanged with him, how long I spoke. I remember that I asked him for cigarette and I remember that we talked about this, what these words reflect. If I remembered anything more, I would have said.
Q. I'll ask you something else. You were testifying yesterday that various people, a lot of people, maybe six, seven, were tortured and 1359 killed in Keraterm. Isn't it true that none of these people were killed on Kole's shift?
A. Except for the massacre which took place, I am unaware of anybody being touched or beaten. I don't know. I cannot guarantee about the others.
Q. You also testified that the people that were selected as the punishment group, they were deemed to be extremists; isn't that true? These are all the things that you said now, because, you know, we can go quickly.
A. The people -- you asking about the people who were called extremists?
A. They called them extremists. I don't know who it was who named them extremists, but in reality, they called them people for special treatment.
Q. Those are all the things that you testified yesterday, and I don't have any dispute with them. I'm just asking you to affirm that Serb authorities at that time called extremists those ones that took arms to fight them actually in attack on Prijedor or liberation of Prijedor. It all depends which side we are on.
A. They considered all people who were in the SDA extremists. Those who were not with the SDS, to them they were all extremists, some to a lesser, some to a greater degree.
Q. But those ones that had arms or that were caught with arms right after attack on Prijedor, they were certainly considered extremists, so we 1360 can let those ones, just regular members of SDA, aside from the time being. Those ones that had arms in their hands were considered extremists, that's for sure?
A. I don't know who had weapons, nor whom they considered to have had weapons or to have been extremists. There were a lot of hunters in our midst. They had weapons.
Q. I was not about ever to ask you that question because you were -- never testified or said that you were involved yourself in looking who had weapons, so we will not go there, Mr. Witness E. Could I have -- I have an exhibit, please. Mr. Witness E, I would like you to look at this document, to read these names, and to tell me, do you know whether any of these people are well and living today?
A. I only know about the first -- top two, that they are alive. I don't know about the rest. Bakir Hrncic, who left with me in Travnik, and Malik Hrncic, whom I found in Travnik when I crossed Mount Vlasic.
Q. Let me just follow this up. Has any of these men spent time in Keraterm that you know of?
A. Edin Tepic.
Q. And is he alive?
A. I don't know exactly, but he was a fireman.
Q. Okay. The one that was arrested with you that had the cakija in his pocket?
A. No, it was not him.
Q. Okay. As long as we are at that term, I think you ought to explain to the court what cakija really means, because it was talked about 1361 that yesterday and that is a pocket knife typical for Bosnia; isn't that correct? But pocket knife, this is about ten centimetres long, isn't that correct?
A. About this, there was some that are smaller.
Q. Usually -- and usually does have a blade which is just that long too, just as the handle is on one side and the blade forward. And the blade is about one and a half to two centimetres wide.
MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honours, it's important.
JUDGE MAY: It's a folding knife, I think you might call it, in English.
MR. VUCICEVIC: It's a folding knife, but I haven't seen it any place in the west, and it's kind of typical. Because what I am going to ask him now you will see the difference.
Q. Because this is a knife which is sometimes used to slaughter a pig or slaughter a lamb?
A. It is impossible.
Q. Okay. Let's go back to these names. If -- could you read, there is handwriting on the B/C/S and it reads, "The group which participated in the attack against Prijedor on May 30th, 1992." So if there is a name or two here that I know of, and that the Prosecutor knows of that survived, perhaps there are some other ones that survived also; isn't that true?
MR. RYNEVELD: Excuse me, what kind of --
MR. VUCICEVIC: I'm not going to mention any names.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld.
MR. RYNEVELD: I just don't understand the relevance of that 1362BLANK PAGE 1363 question to this witness. If my friend, again, wants to make this as an argument, I just don't know how this witness can be of assistance to that question.
JUDGE ROBINSON: What's the relevance of this question of survivors?
MR. VUCICEVIC: Because if the man who has survived has been caught with a weapon in his hands and he has survived, then perhaps he might revise his statement what extremists are.
JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll allow it. Proceed quickly.
MR. VUCICEVIC: Thank you.
Q. If a man who is on this list has been caught with a weapon in his hands and he had survived, perhaps your view of what extremists are or your view of what Serbs considered extremists should be somewhat narrower, shouldn't be?
A. I would like to say something if I can.
Q. [Previous translation continues]... we have to finish this. Because you only know one man here, and I'm saying if that man had some arms and survived, then your -- what you said before what Serbs considered extremist should be modified, shouldn't it?
JUDGE ROBINSON: Are you in a position to answer that question, Witness E?
A. This Tepic, he didn't have any weapons and there are other Tepics and the father's name is different. So I cannot even say who this one is. I know that the name is familiar. I did not say that I knew the man. 1364
JUDGE ROBINSON: You have explored this point sufficiently. Yes, move on.
Q. You also mentioned that Car was one of those killed early on. Did you know him before the war or knew him by sight?
Q. [Previous translation continues]...
A. I did know him. I don't know what his profession was. We knew each other superficially in the cafes.
Q. [Previous translation continues]... once and a while in a restaurant.
A. With him, his brother, his sister. Occasionally I also met his father. We called them all Car. That was a nickname for all of them except for his sister whose name I cannot remember.
Q. [Previous translation continues]... reasonably to say that you knew him well because you knew the whole family?
A. I did not know all of them, but I knew part of the family. One of the brothers worked as a waiter in the bar called Jedinica.
Q. His name was Jusufovic Sead, wasn't it?
A. I don't know the exact full name, but I only know that his nickname was Car.
Q. But you couldn't -- you were not drinking with him regularly. You were drinking with him on and off. You would see him, but then he wouldn't be there, but you would see him, but he wouldn't be there. Isn't that correct? 1365
A. Yes, exactly.
Q. And that is the reason because he has been constantly in trouble with the law in the years prior to the war, wasn't it? He's been in court in and out for ten years.
A. The fact that he had -- was in trouble with the law was no reason for anyone to kill him. There is law to deal with that.
Q. I certainly agree with you. I mean I couldn't agree with you any more. But I'm just asking whether he had this reputation of being a criminal?
A. I don't know what criminal may mean for someone. I don't know his dealings with the police, with the judiciary. That, I don't know. We only knew each other superficially. I knew his father who was also Car. He had a leg missing. And all the male members of that family we called Car.
Q. I have something that might help refresh his recollection. That is a rap sheet from the Prijedor police station indicating about all the convictions that that man has had, if he can read it and refresh his recollection. If it refreshes his recollection that's --
MR. RYNEVELD: With respect, if I understand the witness' evidence, he says he knew nothing of it. To show him a document now in the hopes it may refresh recollection, there has to be recollection to be refreshed. And from what I understand the witness to say, he knows nothing about that at all.
MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honours, if I may respond.
[Trial Chamber confers] 1366
JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic, you can produce that through another witness. The witness has said that he has no recollection. So produce that document through another witness.
MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, I really appreciate your ruling and I will certainly do that. However, I am a little perturbed that when we are -- when my learned friend is making these statements, that is not being referred to the transcript and to the line. Because if I am going to my recollection when I agreed absolutely with the witness, the witness said, "So what if he was a criminal, what has it to do with him being killed," and I agree with him. That is horrendous. It shouldn't have happened. But, you know, if we are going to have this colloquy with witness being present, then it becomes, you know, -- it's not a side bar but I do thank you.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, please proceed.
MR. VUCICEVIC: I have no more questions, Your Honours.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you. Mr. Vucicevic, the document that you showed the witness, what do you intend to do with that?
MR. VUCICEVIC: I would respectfully ask you to admit it as Kolundzija Defence Exhibit number 1 because that was a document that was already pre-admitted by -- a document that was produced by the Prosecutor and I would just like it to be admitted into trial evidence.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld?
MR. RYNEVELD: No objection whatsoever. As a matter of fact, I think that document may already be part of the binder that has, as I understand it, already been admitted in evidence by some other number as 1367 part of the Prosecution's case. But I have no objection to it going in or being referred to by a Defence exhibit number should that be the court's wish.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We admit it as Defence Exhibit number 1.
THE REGISTRAR: Defence Exhibit D1/3.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, re-examination?
MR. RYNEVELD: No questions, thank you.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Witness E, that concludes your testimony. You are released.
MR. RYNEVELD: Before we call the next witness, Your Honour, there is an issue I would like to raise, if I may, before we call the next witness. Do you want me to wait until the witness leaves the courtroom?
JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. We will just wait until he leaves.
MR. RYNEVELD: Thank you.
[The witness withdrew]
JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. Ryneveld?
MR. RYNEVELD: Your Honour, I neglected earlier to ask the court's permission for one of our investigating officers, who is on our witness list, to be permitted to either watch the proceedings by some means? As I understand it, there is a practice that has developed at this Tribunal that in the event there are potential witnesses on the list who happen to be investigators, that we should be seeking the court's permission to allow them to either from time to time view the proceedings, or to watch it by closed circuit transmission on the television broadcast. I might say that this witness is on our witness list, near the very end of the 1368 list, for the sole purpose of assisting the court with respect to the exhumation areas, some of the reports that are being put in, and this investigator, of course, is important to us, to be of assistance to us throughout the course of the trial. It's my understanding that other courts have granted such permission, and I have simply forgotten up until now to make an application for the court's consent.
I don't know whether my friends take objection to this matter but that is my application.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Are there some rules on this?
MR. RYNEVELD: My understanding is there is not a rule per se, but it is certainly within our policy that we are to ask the court's permission. I suppose there is technically an issue as to a matter of weight to be placed on that witness' evidence. My understanding is there is a rule that just because a witness may have heard evidence or have been present in the courtroom does not preclude him from being able to give evidence, but it's always a matter of weight. This is something that's quite different. He will be dealing with the issue of exhumation reports and perhaps being asked some questions. He may not be called but he is on our witness list
[Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Greaves, before you begin, let me deal with this. As far as the rules are concerned, I think they are silent, but you can tell me if I'm wrong about that.
MR. GREAVES: I believe that to be the case. I'm aware of the 1369 practice that has developed in some cases. I'm not sure that all cases.
JUDGE MAY: I was going to say certainly in cases which I've been in we have allowed the investigator into court in these circumstances. Thinking aloud about it, the objection can only be if it might affect his evidence, and if it's on a limited area, I don't know what that objection can be, if it's really --
MR. GREAVES: Can I offer another problem?
JUDGE MAY: Yes.
MR. GREAVES: Which is if that investigator is going to be engaged in the proofing of future witnesses, or is going to be briefing other investigators on the proofing of witnesses, that would be undesirable. It's got to be somebody who is independent of that process, in my submission.
JUDGE MAY: Perhaps I could add one other thought. It may be that, in due course, the Defence will want their investigator in court.
MR. GREAVES: There is of course that. We have much more limited resources than the Office of the Prosecutor and are only allowed to have one investigator, so that the objection that I've raised is a problem for us. I hope I'm speaking, as it were, more as amicus curiae than making a specific objection. I'm just concerned that an investigator can be sitting there watching how the Defence is trying to develop its case and in some ways influencing witnesses. That's something we ought to try and avoid. It's a danger. It's not a specific allegation, I hasten to add, but it can be done unconsciously.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Any other counsel wish to speak on this matter? 1370
MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do not wish to waste your time but I fully endorse Mr. Greaves's objection. I think equality of arms might be brought into question if Prosecution's investigator were allowed to be present whereas we are not. Rather we simply cannot for various reasons to bring in an investigator, even tender documents through him, let alone something more, let alone have him admitted to the courtroom or admitted to the proceedings or to respond, to use on the ground what he heard in the courtroom, to be present in the courtroom. So I'm afraid that Prosecution's investigator would seriously bring into question the equality of arms, which is always at peril.
JUDGE MAY: Mr. Petrovic, I wasn't suggesting that the Prosecution would be allowed to have their investigator into court but you would not. What I was suggesting was that, in due course, you may want to have your investigator into court, in which case, of course, we would be no doubt minded to allow it if we had allowed the Prosecution investigator into court. The equality of arms would work in that way.
MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we would be the happiest if we could have our investigator present from the very beginning, equally as the investigator of the Prosecution, but the Registry does not allow that and explicitly forbids it. They do not allow us to have a legal adviser here or a legal assistant here, let alone an investigator. We accept with due respect what you are telling us and we accept that, but the Registry's practice is different. And as far as I know, it holds true of all the cases. No Defence team has had -- have had their investigators present in the courtroom or present at parts of the 1371 proceedings here. If I'm wrong, I stand to be corrected, of course.
JUDGE MAY: That's not my experience. I remember cases in which we have allowed the Defence investigator into court. But let's not argue about that. That's not the point at the moment.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic?
MR. VUCICEVIC: I object on principle because in jurisdiction that I'm coming from, the very first motion at the beginning of the trial is motion to exclude witnesses. And if this man is -- or woman is going to be witnesses, then I would like them excluded. If they are going to testify about any particular matter, they have --
THE INTERPRETER: Can the counsel slow down, please?
MR. VUCICEVIC: [Previous translation continues]... witnesses whom they are going to hear on their own because that's the witness they are going to produce anyway? So their presence in the courtroom is superfluous, you know. They want to waste their time, that's fine, but I think the principle is something that matters. There must be something else that he wants to find out. And that's what I'm wondering what it is. Coming about the equality of arms, with the highest regards for learned Judge May, we indeed, judge, don't have that equity of arms when it comes to the investigators. Might have been just an exceptional instance that it did happen, but it's impossible for us to have the investigation, the very nature of the organisation --
THE INTERPRETER: Will the counsel slow down, please?
JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Vucicevic, please slow down for the interpreter. 1372BLANK PAGE 1373
MR. VUCICEVIC: They all sit here with the --
THE INTERPRETER: Switch on his microphone, please.
MR. VUCICEVIC: And our investigators are in Bosnia and never come here, or very seldom, and, you know, it might have some theoretical implication but rather none practical. And equity of arms is a lot more practice than -- for us, theory is for the court and we appreciate it. Thank you.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Ryneveld, why do you need to have the investigator in court?
MR. RYNEVELD: Not necessarily in court, Your Honour.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, I mean to hear the proceedings.
MR. RYNEVELD: Well, there are often situations where we are working on our closing brief that the officer may be of assistance to us. There are situations that need to be checked out. In other words, we don't have unlimited resources either. There are very few investigators, and those that have been assigned to us need to be available to us in order to assist us throughout the course of the trial. I might just say that when I made reference to my understanding of the Rule, I was referring -- I didn't have it out, but I've since looked, it was 90(D) that I had in mind when I made the application. And the witness would not be called as an expert so he would fall outside that category.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
[Trial Chamber confers]
JUDGE ROBINSON: We'll take time to consider this and give a 1374 ruling later.
There is a matter I'd like to raise, it's the question of exhibits, and the requirement that exhibits be in both languages, both working languages, English and French. I want to remind both parties, although principally at this stage it might affect the Prosecution more directly than the Defence of this requirement, and it has to be observed.
MR. RYNEVELD: Yes. I understand that the exhibits filed thus far are in English only and that there could be a considerable delay before we were able, physically, to have the interpreters who are busy, as I understand it. There are finite number of French interpreters, and they are backed up with doing judgements on other cases and other commitments. I realise that we are in trial and it is our obligation, but I'm just indicating to the Court that I see some practical difficulties as we speak in terms of getting those immediately to the Court. We'll have to make some extra special attempts to do that. Thank you for reminding me.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we have to work hard to meet this requirement because it is very important for the efficient functioning of the Court.
Your next witness.
MR. RYNEVELD: Yes, Ms. Baly will take this witness.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Baly.
MS. BALY: Your Honours, the next witness is a witness for whom protective measures were granted on the 27th of December last year, they being a pseudonym and facial distortion.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. 1375
MS. BALY: We call the next witness.
THE REGISTRAR: The pseudonym for the next witness will be Witness F.
[The witness entered court]
JUDGE ROBINSON: Let the witness make the declaration.
THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
WITNESS: WITNESS F
[Witness answered through interpreter] Examined by Ms. Baly:
Q. Witness, can you take a look, please, at this piece of paper that you are about to be handed. On that piece of paper, do you see your name?
Q. Your date of birth?
A. I do.
Q. And you understand, Witness, that you, during these proceedings, are to be referred to as Witness F?
A. Very well.
MS. BALY: That document is Exhibit 16.
THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 18.
MS. BALY: 18.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Baly.
MS. BALY: Thank you, Your Honour.
Q. Witness F, is it the case that you graduated from high school in 1376 1984?
Q. And you completed a period of compulsory military service in an engineering unit in Karlovac; is that correct?
A. It is.
Q. After your period of military service, were you unemployed for a couple of years?
A. That's right.
Q. And in 1988, did you start to work as a taxi driver?
A. I did.
Q. Can we go, please, to 1991. At that time did you own a cafe in Prijedor?
A. That's right.
Q. Did you, in fact, live in the Puharska area in the town of Prijedor?
A. That's right.
Q. At the end of 1991, did you sell your cafe?
A. That's right.
Q. Why did you sell your cafe?
A. I didn't hear the question. Well, the situation was such that one had to sell it.
Q. What was the situation?
A. Well, the war was in the offing in that sense, and there was already war in Croatia.
Q. Is it the case that there were elections held in Prijedor at the 1377 end of 1990?
A. That's right.
Q. At that time, were you a member of any political party?
MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honours, just an objection. I'm kind of here at loss. Witness is answering "Ja, Ja, Ja". That's not a word that's known in B/C/S, and translation is going "That's right. That's right." And that, as a matter of fact "J-a", it's a personal pronoun for the first indicating "I", like "I am in the courtroom." So I don't know what he's referring to.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Thanks for the elucidation. We rely on the interpreters. Please proceed.
MS. BALY: Thank you, Your Honour.
Q. Were you interested in politics at that time?
Q. Did you, however, read newspapers and listen to the radio?
Q. Which radio did you listen to?
A. Radio Prijedor, the local radio station. And naturally I watched television.
Q. What newspaper or newspapers did you read?
A. Kozarski Vijesnik.
Q. Can you describe, briefly, the nature of that newspaper?
A. It was a local paper of the town that I lived in.
Q. After the elections, did the population begin to gather on an 1378 ethnic or national basis?
A. Yes, you could say so.
Q. Can I take you now to the beginning of 1992. What was the situation insofar as politics and advertising politics on the -- through the media?
A. That -- I don't really know how to answer that question.
Q. Did any of the political parties advertise their policies through either the radio, the newspaper, or the television?
A. That's right, yes, they did mostly.
Q. Just briefly, what were the political parties that existed at that time?
A. There were the SDA, SDS, and the HDZ in Prijedor.
Q. Dealing firstly with the SDA, what type of a political party was that?
A. Most of these parties were ethnic parties. So the SDA was practically all Muslim.
Q. And what about the SDS?
A. That was the party of the Serb people.
Q. And the HDZ?
A. Of the Croat one.
Q. And so far as advertising on the media is concerned, which party was it that used the media to advertise?
A. SDS by and large.
Q. And what kinds of things were being said by the SDS through the media? 1379
A. Well, it was for the most part propaganda from the front lines in Croatia where the war was already on.
Q. And what was the nature of that propaganda? What sorts of things were being said?
A. Well, how shall I explain it now? Well, that one should go and wage war in Croatia, that the Croats, ustashas, would come and slaughter, something to that effect, that all the people had to be mobilised and go to fight in Croatia.
MS. BALY: Your Honour, I'm about to move to another subject. Would it be a convenient time?
JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. As a matter of fact, yes, it would be. Witness F, we will now take a break and resume at 11.30. During the adjournment, you are not to discuss your evidence with anybody, and that includes members of the Prosecution team.
MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, if I may, with all due respect, because witness is feeling uncomfortable, if he may want to leave the jacket for the rest of the session or something, that would be helpful.
JUDGE ROBINSON: That will be a matter for him to determine. Yes. We are adjourned.
--- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
--- On resuming at 11.30 a.m.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Baly.
MS. BALY: Thank you, Your Honour.
Q. Witness F, can I take you now, please, to the 30th of April, 1992? Was that the day on which the Serbs took over the power in 1380 Prijedor?
Q. What happened in so far as the power of -- of Radio Prijedor and the newspaper were concerned?
A. After the takeover of power, they appointed their own people to all key positions.
Q. In so far as the radio station that you listened to, that is Radio Prijedor, what happened in so far as that was concerned, after the takeover?
A. It was also -- it was also transferred to the Serb, I don't know how to put it, to the Serb authority.
Q. And what kinds of things were broadcast over the radio after that?
A. From that day on, everything was only Serb propaganda. You could not hear anything else. Serbian songs, Serbian everything.
Q. In so far as propaganda is concerned, was there any particular propaganda that was broadcast?
A. Yes. They were saying that everybody had to go to the war in Croatia, to defend Yugoslavia, in that sense that everybody had to be mobilised.
Q. What was the situation in so far as the newspaper that you read?
A. The same. Everything was the same as that.
Q. Can I take you now to the period of late May or around the 23rd of May in particular? Did an incident take place in the village of Hambarine? 1381
Q. What was the nature of that incident?
A. Two Serb, I don't know what they were, policemen or civilians, were killed there.
Q. Was there anything announced on the radio concerning that particular incident?
Q. What was it?
A. That the renegades at Hambarine had killed those two, I don't know what they were, policemen or civilians, but they were labelled as Muslim rebels.
Q. Was there any announcement over the radio in so far as weapons are concerned?
A. Yes. It was ordered that all the weapons that were there would be turned in and that some automatic rifles be returned.
Q. Witness F, are you familiar with what is called a Crisis Staff?
A. I heard that such Crisis Staffs existed, but I did not know what their role was.
Q. When you say you heard that they existed, when did they come into existence?
A. I don't know.
Q. Witness F, you mentioned earlier in your evidence that key positions were taken over by Serbs. Can you just please explain what you meant by that?
A. Before this takeover of power, there were the elections in which 1382BLANK PAGE 1383 the SDA party won the majority. So from this party, these SDA people were appointed to the leading positions, and then after the takeover, the Serb or the SDA members got to these positions.
Q. And when you refer to the leading positions or the key positions, what exactly, what precisely were those positions?
A. The president of the municipality, the police commander, the person the head of the health services, school services, things like that.
Q. In relation to firstly the police commander, prior to the situation, the crisis, what was the ethnicity of the person who held that position?
A. He was a Muslim.
Q. What about after the takeover?
A. A Serb.
Q. Was that the situation insofar as all of the positions that you've mentioned are concerned?
Q. Witness F, you, yourself, are a person of Muslim ethnicity; is that correct?
Q. What is your ethnicity?
Q. Witness F, after the takeover, you remained residing in the Puharska area; is that correct?
Q. Were you watching what was going on in the area? 1384
Q. What did you notice insofar as the population of non-Serbs?
A. What did I notice? The ethnic groups started separating out. The stratification started in town. The people with whom I socialised, I no longer socialised with, and other people did that too.
Q. Did you notice Serbs dressed in uniforms in the area?
Q. Were you able to recognise the nature of those uniforms?
A. Those were military police, all kinds of uniforms. They were different.
Q. What sorts of things did those persons do?
A. For the most part they walked around about town without doing anything, and most of them had come back from the front in Croatia.
Q. Did they, on any occasions, attend the homes of persons who were of non-Serb ethnicity?
A. Not with me. I don't know.
Q. When you say not with you, did it occur with any other persons to your knowledge?
A. I don't know what period you are referring to.
Q. Witness F, I'm referring to a period after the takeover and, in particular, after the incident in Hambarine, that is, late May of 1992.
A. It depended on the part of town. This Keraterm camp was open and they started gathering there, the non-Serb population.
Q. And was that non-Serb population concentrated in a particular area of town? 1385
A. Yes. These areas were the outlying areas, the villages around town, and the town itself, in that sense.
Q. When you say they were gathering the non-Serb population, how were they doing that?
A. I can say how they did it in my area.
Q. How did they do it in your area?
A. Simply they -- armed soldiers entered the street and rounded up everyone.
Q. Witness F, were you yourself rounded up?
Q. Were you concerned, Witness F, that you would be rounded up?
Q. What did you do because of your concern?
A. My Serb neighbour protected me and we hid at his place.
Q. For how long did you hide at his place?
A. When it was over, we could go back home.
Q. Are you able to put a date on when you say it was over?
A. I don't know the exact date, but it was over the same day.
Q. At some stage, Witness F, were you in fact rounded up?
Q. Do you know when that was?
A. 12th of June.
Q. Witness F, where were you?
A. I was at home.
Q. Can you just describe to the court, please, what happened? 1386
A. An unknown person called me from the Zarko Zgonjanin barracks to report to the barracks for an information interview.
Q. How did you receive that call? Was that on the telephone?
A. I was simply -- they simply called me on the phone. I picked up the phone and I was told to report to the barracks.
Q. Did you in fact report to the barracks?
Q. What was the name of that barracks?
A. Zarko Zgonjanin.
Q. What happened after you reported to the barracks?
A. I was met by a guard at the reception office and he told me to wait. Five or ten minutes later, a Golf vehicle came with a driver and an escort, and they drove me over there.
Q. Witness F, where was that barracks in relation to the Keraterm camp?
A. Keraterm was on the Prijedor-Banja Luka road and the barracks was on the Prijedor-Bosanska Dubica road.
Q. Witness F, is it the case that you have in fact drawn a sketch or a map indicating the position of the barracks?
A. Not the Zarko Zgonjanin barracks.
Q. I show you, please, a document.
MS. BALY: I have, Your Honours, copies of those -- of that map in both English and B/C/S. I apologise at this stage, Your Honours, I do not have a French translation of that document. It has been requested.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. 1387
Q. Just before it's placed on the ELMO, Witness F, for how long did you remain at the army barracks?
A. I did not enter the barracks at all.
Q. What happened after you arrived at the barracks?
A. I was met with a soldier -- by a soldier at the reception office, and five to ten minutes later, a driver and an escort arrived in a Golf vehicle, and then they took me to Keraterm. That is, to the military police building behind Keraterm.
Q. And, Witness F, in so far -- the map might be placed on the ELMO at this stage. Just look, please, Witness F, at the map. Is that a map that you in fact drew?
Q. May we have the B/C/S version placed upon the ELMO? Do you see, Witness F, that upon that -- on that map, you've drawn a building or a square that has "VP1" written on it?
Q. Is that the building to which you were taken?
Q. You see on that map, you've also drawn a building and you've marked it "VP2."
A. Yes. That is where they brought me.
Q. What is VP1?
A. VP1 was the other military police facility.
Q. Did that facility afford a view of the Keraterm camp? 1388
A. Yes. From VP1.
Q. From VP2 is it the situation that you couldn't see the camp because, in fact, VP2 was behind the camp; is that correct?
A. Yes, but only from the back.
Q. Only what from the back?
A. That was a building -- you could only see the back of the building. In other words, you were not able to see the inmates in there.
Q. Are you saying, Witness F, that from the building you've marked VP2, that is the military building that you were taken, you could see the back of the Keraterm camp but not in the camp; is that correct?
Q. What happened when you arrived at the police headquarters?
A. The two soldiers who had brought me, took me to their interrogator, to their commander whose name was Dragan Radetic.
Q. What ethnicity was Dragan Radetic?
A. A Serb.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Baly, there is a question mark after VP1 and a slash, and also VP2 and a slash in the English version. Is there any significance to that question mark?
MS. BALY: Your Honour, those are translator's notes. I do intend to clarify with the witness at a later stage some of the markings on the document that appear to have been difficult to read to the translators.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Proceed. Yes.
Q. Did you know that person Radetic prior to arriving at the police 1389 headquarters?
Q. In what circumstances and how did you know him?
A. Dragan Radetic was a lawyer in Prijedor.
Q. What did Dragan Radetic do at that time, that is, when you arrived at the police headquarters?
A. He was in that room in his office there.
Q. Did you go into the office?
A. Yes. Those two soldiers brought me over to him.
Q. And what happened after you were taken over to him?
A. Nothing. He ordered me to sit down, and then he asked me where I was, what I did, where my car was, what party I had financed. Questions in that vein.
Q. Did you answer his questions?
A. Yes, I had to.
Q. Why, Witness F, do you say you had to answer those questions?
A. Because the guards were out there and he had all the power.
Q. Insofar as your -- the questions you were asked about your car, can you expand, please, on that? What were you asked and what did you say?
A. He asked me where my car was. I said that it was at home. And he said that this car would be taken away for the needs of the Serb military, that I had to turn it over.
Q. Did you have your car keys with you?
A. Yes. 1390
Q. Did you do something with your car keys at that time?
A. Yes, I turned them over to him.
Q. Do you know what happened to your car?
A. He sent me with the escort of two soldiers to go home and show them where the car was. Then we went to get the car, and I was brought back to Radetic.
Q. When you say, "We went to get the car," who took the car?
A. We drove there. We drove in their military vehicle there.
Q. And what happened to your car after you arrived there?
A. They simply took my car away.
Q. You said you were then taken back to Radetic. What happened after that?
A. Then he said that there would be no problems whatsoever, but that I had to stay in Keraterm in any event for one day.
Q. For one day; is that correct?
Q. Did you go to Keraterm?
A. He directed me there with the -- and he sent one guard with me to escort me to the camp.
Q. Going back for a moment, Witness F, did you ever get your car back? Have you ever had your car returned?
Q. How did you get to Keraterm, did you walk or were you transported in a vehicle?
A. On foot. The distance is a few hundred metres. 1391
Q. What happened when you arrived at Keraterm camp?
A. The guard brought me to the corner of what has been marked on the sketch as Room 1. And he ordered me to report to the guards on duty there who were lined up in front of Room 3 as marked on the sketch.
Q. Did you recognise any of those guards?
A. I recognised the majority of those guards because I knew them before the war. I knew them from before.
Q. Can you name, please, the guards that you recognised.
A. Yes. Zoran Zigic; Dusan Knezevic, Duca; Zoran Vokic; Zeljko Timarac; and a number of others whose first and last names I did not know.
Q. How did you know this person Timarac before the war?
A. I knew him from the town because it is a small town and practically everybody knew one another, and he also played football in a club.
Q. What about the person Zoran Vokic?
A. I also knew him. Well, we were friends before the conflict.
Q. And the person Zoran Zigic?
A. I knew him because we worked together for a couple of years.
Q. What did he do prior to the conflict? What was his occupation?
A. Before the -- before it broke out, he was a taxi driver, and for a while, he worked in Pula, in Croatia.
Q. What about the person Dusan Knezevic? How did you know him prior to the war?
A. Well, same thing. I knew him by sight from various coffee shops and other places. 1392BLANK PAGE 1393
Q. When you were taken to the outside of Room 1, did you notice anything going on at that time in the camp?
Q. What was it that you saw?
A. In front of Zigic and those others, inmates were lined up, and they were beating them.
Q. What were they beating them with?
A. Baseball bats, batons, rods, hands, feet.
Q. Whereabouts on the bodies of the inmates were they being beaten?
A. All over.
Q. At that time, did you have any contact, that is when you first arrived in the camp, with Zoran Zigic, and if so, what happened?
A. Yes. The guard who brought me there ordered me to report to them. That is, to cross the concrete pista and report to them.
Q. Did you in fact do that?
A. I did.
Q. When you say "them," to whom are you referring?
A. Well, those persons whom I named, who were beating over there.
Q. What time of the day was it? Are you able to say that?
A. Sometime in the afternoon.
Q. During daylight hours?
A. Yes, yes. It was summertime so there was daylight until 10.00, but it was in the afternoon.
Q. Witness F, what happened after you reported?
A. So I reported down there, that I had arrived, and Zigic asked me 1394 what was I doing there and who had brought me? And Dusan Knezevic, Duca, started to beat me immediately, and Zigic told me to let me be because I was his. And what he meant by that, whether that I was his friend or that I was his responsibility, I don't know.
Q. Witness F, did you eventually go to Room number 1?
A. First they told me to sit down with them because there was a bed there where they took a rest after beating, so that I had to sit there and watch them beat those prisoners.
Q. For how long did you remain seated there watching the prisoners being beaten?
A. Half an hour, an hour.
Q. Was anything said to you during that time by any of the -- any of the guards?
A. They offered me to drink with them and they told me to confess everything I had to confess and then nobody would harm me.
Q. Did they offer you -- what were they offering you in so far as drink is concerned?
A. Yes, brandy, cognac.
Q. Was there brandy, cognac there at the time?
Q. And was it being consumed? Was it being drunk by any of the guards?
Q. Who was drinking it?
A. All those who were doing the beating. 1395
Q. Is it the case, Witness F, that you were then -- you then went to Room number 1?
A. Yes, Zigic told me to go to the rear part of the dormitory because, he told me, at night people came to beat, so it was better for me to be in the rear part of the dormitory, and he told me to go to number 1 because it was the best.
Q. Did he say why it was better for you to go to the rear part of Room number 1?
A. He told me that at night-time there were some who came and beat.
Q. When you went to Room number 1, did you recognise any of the other detainees in that room?
A. Yes. In that Room number 1 most detainees were my neighbours.
Q. Can you name those whom you recognised?
A. Well, I can, if I have to. It's their safety.
Q. Yes, thank you, Witness F. In so far as Room number 1 is concerned, can you briefly describe that room in relation -- in so far as its size is concerned, and in relation to the nature of the door, those kinds of features?
A. I see. Well, the room was 10 by 20 metres. The door was -- it was a metal door, a metal door, an iron door.
Q. What about the ceiling of that room? How high would you say the ceiling was?
A. Oh, three, four metres, perhaps.
Q. For how long did you remain in that room? Were you in that room the entire time that you were detained at Keraterm? 1396
Q. Did you move to another room at some stage during your detention?
A. Not to another room, to the hospital.
Q. Apart from your stay in the hospital, was Room 1 the room that you were detained in during your time at Keraterm?
A. You mean -- no, but when they beat me, I was in a different room. I was in Room 1 all the time except when they beat me. At that time, I was in a different room.
Q. Witness F, how many other inmates would you say were in Room 1 when you arrived?
A. The room was already full.
Q. When you say it was full, can you just estimate, and we appreciate you can't be exact, but can you give an approximate number of the other inmates?
A. 200, 300.
Q. What was the situation insofar as the space that you had in that room. Was it crowded, was it not crowded. Can you just describe that, please?
A. There was no space at all. On one pallet used for tiles, there were four or five men sleeping. And because it was overcrowded, I found a place for myself in the rear part of the dormitory below the wash basin.
Q. Now, Witness F, can you look, please, again at the map that you drew. Can I direct your attention, perhaps with the assistance of the usher. Firstly, Mr. Usher, to the -- what appears to be a room between Room 4. Sorry, two rooms along to the left of Room 4. 1397 Can you point, please, with the pointer?
A. I didn't understand the question.
Q. Do you see there where you've written "military prison"?
Q. You see the room next to that where there's something written?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Can you point to that?
Q. Yes, what is that? What have you written there, please?
A. It was a warehouse which belonged to a private company called Grosist.
Q. Was that room used for any particular purpose during the time that the Keraterm camp was there, to your knowledge?
A. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
Q. What was it used for?
A. It was a warehouse for foodstuffs, and it was owned by Grosist, which was a private company.
Q. You'll also see, Witness F, that there are what appear to be a question mark, two question marks. In fact, one just behind Room 3 and one just behind that warehouse room. Can you see those?
A. I can, yes.
Q. Can you point to those, please.
Q. And the other one, the other question mark.
A. [Indicates]. 1398
Q. Yes. What do those question marks represent?
A. I didn't know what was it, what rooms, what facilities were those.
MS. BALY: Yes, I tender that map.
THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution Exhibit 19.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
MS. BALY: That can be removed from the ELMO.
Q. Witness F, when you arrived in the camp, that is, on the 12th of June 1992, how many prisoners in total were detained at Keraterm camp?
A. I couldn't give you the exact figure, but dormitories 1 and 2 were already full.
Q. What about dormitories 3 and 4?
A. I couldn't say, because I don't know how many people were there in those early days.
Q. Can you describe, please, the toilet facilities that existed and the access that you, as inmates, had to the toilets?
A. The toilets existed but were not in working order because all those sewage pipes were blocked. So that if one wanted to go in there, he would have to walk -- to wade through urine which was 20, 30 centimetres deep.
Q. How many toilets were there?
A. Well, there was one facility with several booths, several stalls.
Q. Were the inmates able to use the toilets during the night?
A. Sure, but it was hazardous.
Q. Why was it hazardous?
A. Well, some never came back. 1399
Q. Do you know what happened to those who never came back?
A. Well, they were killed as likely as not.
MR. VUCICEVIC: Objection to the question and the answer. Calls for speculation. With speculation, move to strike it from the record.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Well, it's a matter of fact for him to say whether he knows what happened to those who never came back. Either he does or he doesn't.
Do you know?
A. I do not know. I'm guessing what happened. They simply vanished into thin air.
Q. Thank you, Witness F. Did you receive food while you were in the camp?
Q. How often were you fed, and can you describe the food, the nature of the food, that you received, both in terms of its quality and its quantity?
A. We were given food once a day, but we would get only so many rations so that the last dormitory would not get anything at all. The food tasted bad. It was just water. It was just warm water with some cabbage or some beans, perhaps a bone or two, but no meat or anything.
Q. Did you receive drinking water?
Q. What was the quality of that drinking water, from what you could ascertain? 1400
A. Well, it was good, seeing that for a long time we had absolutely none.
Q. For how long did you have absolutely none?
A. We did have water. I mean water is -- water was the best thing we had because we simply had nothing else. That is what I meant. There was no food or anything else and there was water.
Q. Did you have free access to that water?
A. At times we did; at times we didn't.
Q. Now, going back to the food for a moment, can you just describe fairly briefly, please, the nature of the process of receiving the food and how long you had to eat and that kind of thing?
A. Well, the procedure was as follows: Every day, or rather every second day, a different dormitory would be the first, so that we had to line up in front of the table from which the food was distributed, and then each one of us would pick up that plate, have to eat very quickly, leave the plate, and go back to the dormitory.
Q. Why did you have to eat very quickly? Were you given some order or some instruction in so far as the length of time you were allowed to eat?
A. As we waited, as we queued for food, the guards beat us.
Q. Did any of the inmates suffer any kind of health problems that you could observe?
Q. What? What were the problems?
A. Well, lice appeared, all sorts of other vermin. People had 1401 diarrhoea. Many people had already been beaten. They had open wounds and such like.
Q. What happened to your body weight during the time that you were detained at Keraterm?
A. During my stay there, I lost 22 kilograms.
Q. Now, Witness F, I'm going to ask you some questions about the guards and the personnel who were taking care of you at the camp. Firstly, was there any structure that you could observe?
Q. Can you describe how the guards were structured?
A. They alternated. There were three guard shifts and they then changed at some intervals. Each shift had its own commander and they were all subordinated to one guard commander.
Q. How many guards were on each of these shifts?
A. About ten.
Q. Witness F, you referred to one commander being in charge. Do you know who that person was?
Q. Who was it?
MR. LONDROVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, I apologise. The witness said -- Your Honours, the witness said that all shifts were subordinated to one guard commander. He never mentioned the commander of the facility when he was answering the previous question asked by Ms. Baly.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Baly. 1402BLANK PAGE 1403
MS. BALY: Yes, thank you.
Q. Witness, who was the person that you referred to as the one commander?
A. Dusko Sikirica.
Q. And just for clarity, what was his role in the camp?
A. His role was to organise the camp.
Q. And how did these shift commanders relate to him?
A. Well, there wasn't a special relationship, I mean submitting reports. But it was a fact that he was their superior.
Q. What did you see, Witness F, or hear, Witness F, that drew you to conclude that he was their superior?
A. When he arrived, we were always ordered to go back into the dormitories. There were other details. The hierarchy in the camp was evident. One knew who was subordinated to whom.
Q. Just do the best you can and take your time. What were those details that you observed?
A. Well, as often as not he -- I don't know how to explain it. What do I say? Well, it was -- it was -- the inmates knew how it worked.
Q. Well, are you able to say how in fact it did work? What was it that the inmates knew?
A. Every shift had its system, treated -- had a special system according to which they treated us, the detainees. That is, some were better and some were worse. They were all bad.
Q. Going back to this person Sikirica, did you know him prior to your detention in Keraterm camp, and if so, in what circumstances did you know 1404 him?
A. I can, yes. He was the boyfriend of a school fellow of mine at the time when we met, and I believe he married her in the end. I mean, when we came out of school.
Q. When was it that you met?
A. At the time when I went to school, at school.
Q. Following your school days, did you have any further contact with this person Sikirica?
A. No, but I used to see him, to come across him.
Q. Just briefly, in what circumstances did you see him or come across him?
A. I've already said, it is a small town so everybody knew everybody. We would meet every night.
Q. Going back to 1992 when you were in the camp, can you describe what the person Sikirica looked like, in terms of his age, height, build, and general appearance?
A. Yeah, sure. Well, a little bit different than I look today.
Q. How old would you say he was? That's in 1992.
A. Just a moment. I have to do my math. 30ish.
Q. How tall would you say he was?
A. He was rather tall. He wasn't short.
Q. Was he taller than you?
Q. How tall are you?
A. I don't know. 1405
Q. What about his -- the build of his body? How would you describe that?
A. He was quite strong.
Q. What did he wear when he was in the camp?
A. He -- I mean not he alone, most of them had different types of military uniform.
Q. Just concentrating on him, that is Mr. Sikirica, what kind of uniform did he wear, are you able to say?
A. That military uniform -- well, it was something olive green-grey. I don't know. A military uniform.
Q. Did he wear any kind of hat or anything on his head?
A. Sometimes he did, sometimes he didn't.
Q. What kind of a hat was it?
A. Well, I know that at times he would have a black beret.
Q. Now, how often did you see this person while you were in the camp?
Q. What kinds of things did you see this person Sikirica doing?
A. He mostly came to the reception office before going to work and there was the record of the inmates, where all the names of the inmates were. There he would talk to shift leaders and guards, that is, he came to do the visit, the tour of the camp.
Q. What do you mean when you say he came to do the tour of the camp? What did he actually do?
A. I wouldn't be able to say exactly what he did.
Q. Did you ever see him with persons other than camp personnel in the 1406 camp?
Q. Who were those other persons?
A. These were some civilian persons who came to visit the camp, and when they arrived, we had to go to the rooms and we had to sing these provocative songs or Chetnik songs.
Q. Do you know the names of any of those civilian persons?
Q. You say you had to go to your rooms and sing Chetnik songs. What did the persons do when they came to the camp?
A. They were just walking about in -- outside of the rooms.
Q. And what was Sikirica doing?
A. He was escorting them.
Q. Witness F, do you think that you would be able to recognise this person Sikirica if you were to see him today?
Q. I'd like you to look around the courtroom and indicate whether you can see him.
Q. I'd like you to indicate where you see him by reference to the seat that he's sitting in, and the row of that seat. And insofar as the seat is concerned, can you count from the left and indicate which seat he's sitting in.
A. The last row to the left, the fifth.
Q. When you say the fifth -- 1407
A. I also counted the policemen.
Q. From which side of the room are you counting, Witness F?
A. From the left.
Q. The person --
A. From right to left.
Q. Can you count, please, from left to right, and indicate which seat he's sitting in?
MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, with respect, the witness has given the answer and that should be the end of it. What is now happening is an attempt to get him to identify somebody else, in my submission.
JUDGE ROBINSON: No, I don't agree. Go ahead, yes.
Q. Witness F, what I'd like you to do is what I first asked you to do, that is, count from left to right and indicate which seat he's sitting in.
A. The second.
Q. Thank you.
MS. BALY: For the record, I'll ask that the witness has identified the accused Mr. Sikirica.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes. Yes.
Q. Now, Witness F, you referred to there being three shifts and three -- I'll withdraw that. Were those shifts commanded by any particular guards or led by any particular guards?
A. These three shifts each had its own shift commander. Shall I name 1408 their names?
Q. Please, Witness F.
A. The commander of one shift was Kajin, another shift Kole, and the third shift Fustar. These were all nicknames.
Q. Was the full name of the person you referred to as Kole, Dragan Kolundzija?
Q. Did you know that person prior to being detained in Keraterm camp?
A. Only by sight.
Q. Can you describe his appearance, please, as it was in 1992 when you were in the camp?
A. He was tall, very tall, and thinner.
Q. Thinner than what or whom?
A. Thinner than Sikirica.
Q. What did he wear?
A. Also a military uniform.
Q. Did you know what his employment was prior to being a guard at the camp?
A. I think he was a driver at the AutoTransport company.
Q. Why do you say -- what did you see about him that made you conclude that he was one of the shift commanders?
A. Each shift commander had the keys to the rooms so that the rooms could be locked if they wanted them locked. And he decided, when we were getting water, who would go to get it, and which room would go first so that there wouldn't be any problems with the distribution of water and 1409 things like that.
Q. Witness F, what I'd like you to do -- well, firstly, do you think you'd be able to recognise that person if you saw him again?
Q. Witness F, can you look around the courtroom and indicate whether you can see that person, that is Kole?
Q. Now, counting from left to right, can you indicate where this person is seated?
A. Yes, number 5.
Q. And which row?
A. Last row.
MS. BALY: Again for the record, Your Honour, I'd ask that the record reflect the witness has indicated -- has identified the person Dragan Kolundzija.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
Q. Turning now, Witness F, to the person you've described as Kajin, do you know his full name?
A. I knew him best of all of the accused, but only by the nickname Kajin. I think that his last name was Dosen.
Q. In what circumstances did you know him prior to your detention in Keraterm camp?
A. He worked with my father in the same company, and we were acquaintances from town. I thought that we were friends. 1410
Q. Can you describe his appearance as at 1992, please? That is height, build? Just describe him.
A. He was also thinner but taller, yes, skinny.
Q. Witness F, do you think you'd be able to recognise him if you saw him again?
Q. Again, can you look around the courtroom, and if you see this person, can you indicate where he's seated by reference to the row and the seat number, counting from left to right?
A. Last row, number 3.
MS. BALY: I'd ask that the record reflect that the witness has identified Kajin, Damir Dosen.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Objection, Your Honour. The witness does not know the full name of the person whom he has just identified. In this way, it has been suggested to him, even though in all these statements that he has given, including the summary, he mentions a different first name as the name of the person identified.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Those are matters that we will take into consideration when we come to assess the evidence.
MR. PETROVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, Ms. Baly?
Q. Now, Witness F, concentrating on the person Kajin, what kinds of things did you see him do in the camp that led you to conclude that he was 1411 one of the shift leaders?
A. As I said, shift commanders had keys with which they could lock the doors to the rooms.
Q. Did they in fact lock the doors to the rooms?
A. Sometimes they did; sometimes they didn't.
Q. Was there any particular time of the day or night when the doors would be locked?
A. As I said, sometimes yes, sometimes no.
Q. What about the time of day or night? Was there a specific time of day or night when the doors would be locked?
A. For the most part the doors would be locked after 10.00 or 11.00 at night.
Q. You said you knew the person Kajin well. Did he have a brother that you knew?
Q. Did you ever see that brother in the camp?
A. I wouldn't be able to say.
Q. Now, I want to ask you, Witness F, about the daily activities and things that would go on during the camp -- during the day. Firstly, at the day -- in the daytime hours, what would happen to the prisoners? Were they left in peace or what would happen to them?
A. During the day, we had -- each prisoner had to go through a civilian interrogation, that is interrogation by civilian policemen in a room that was above Room number 1.
Q. Were you yourself put through that process? 1412BLANK PAGE 1413
Q. How many times?
Q. Can you just describe what happened, how you got to the room and what happened when you were in the room?
A. One of the guards took me to that room upstairs where those civilian policemen from the former police were, and they were keeping these records with all the data, who you were, and where and when you were born, what ethnic background you were, et cetera.
Q. Were you asked questions?
Q. What kinds of questions were you asked and by whom?
A. The questions for the most part concerned where I was before the war, where I was during the attack on Prijedor, that line of questions.
Q. For how long did that process last?
A. About 15 minutes to half an hour.
Q. What role, if any, did the guards in the camp play during that process?
A. While I was interrogated, there were no guards in the room.
Q. Did the guards play any role in escorting you to the room in which you were interrogated?
A. The guards who were the camp guards would take me to a guard who would take people around to that room. There was another guard who had nothing to do with the camp guards.
Q. Who was that guard? Do you know that person's name? 1414
Q. Why do you say that that guard had nothing to do with the camp guards?
A. We knew who the camp guards were, and that person we would never see.
Q. Well, Witness F, you did see that person on at least one occasion; is that correct?
A. Which person now? I didn't understand.
Q. I'm referring, Witness F, to the person you said was a guard who was not one of the camp guards. Do you understand?
Q. Witness F, earlier when you were -- when I was asking you questions about your interrogation, I asked you whether the camp guards were involved in the process, and you indicated that the camp guards would take you from the room to another person, another guard, who was not connected with the camp. Do you recall saying that?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. What I'd like you to focus on is the nature -- the identity of this other person who you say was not connected to the camp. Do you understand?
Q. You said you don't know who that person was by name. My question is: How do you know that he was not connected to the camp?
A. Because the interrogators who would come, those civilian interrogators in the rooms above the rooms, every inmate went through this 1415 questioning. They had a separate unit, so to speak.
Q. And Witness F, was this person a part of that separate unit, from your observations?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. Witness F, apart from being interrogated during the day, what other things would happen to the inmates?
A. There were beatings every day. That was a daily life, daily occurrence, in the camp, and of course people died.
Q. Just in general, not focusing on any specific beatings of any specific persons at this stage, just in general, what types of things were people beaten with?
A. Baseball bats, police truncheons, rifle butts, metal piping, cables.
Q. Who did the beating?
Q. Did you ever see any of the shift commanders present during any of the beatings?
A. They were always there. They were always present.
Q. Where would these beatings take place? Did they take place in the rooms or did they take place somewhere else in the camp?
A. Throughout the camp. Less so in the rooms, and during the period when I was there, it didn't happen in the rooms that much, but outside was plenty of it. And there was a room which was for beating.
Q. Did you mark that room on your map?
A. Yes. 1416
Q. What did you mark that room with? Will you just have a look, please, at your map?
Q. Now, Witness F, you said that the shift commanders were present during the time that the beatings would take place. Just concentrate, please, if you would, on Kole. Did you ever see him specifically present during any of the beatings and, if so, where was he in relation to the beating taking place?
A. I did not see.
Q. What about the person Kajin?
A. He was present.
Q. Was he present on more than one occasion?
A. I am talking about my own case.
Q. We'll come to that in a moment. What about any other case, did you see him present?
A. I can mention one other case.
Q. Just for a moment, can I return to the shift leaders. Who was the leader of the other shift. You've referred to three shifts. Who was the leader of the third shift?
A. I don't know the name, but the nickname was Fustar.
Q. Can you name, please, Witness F, any of the guards who you saw actually beating the prisoners?
Q. Who were they?
A. These were the Banovic brothers, a man called Keli, Kondic, Rodic, 1417 someone nicknamed Cupo, someone nicknamed Civerica, and in addition to the guards, there were those who were not guards but who would come and beat the inmates.
Q. You've referred earlier to a person by the name of Zoran Zigic. Was he one of those persons?
A. [No interpretation].
Q. And you also referred to a person by the name of Knezevic, was he also one of those persons?
A. He was not a guard, but they both were coming and beating.
Q. Insofar as the Banovic brothers are concerned, how many brothers were they?
A. Two, twins. Yes, two.
Q. Were they identical twins?
A. No, not like Siamese twins.
Q. Did they look the same?
Q. Were you able to tell them apart in any way?
A. Yes. One had his hair longer and the other one shorter. One was more -- better looking than the other one.
Q. Do you know the names? Do you know their names?
A. I think that one of their names was Predrag.
Q. What kinds of things did you see Predrag doing in the camp?
A. I don't know which one of them was Predrag, of the two, but I knew them as the Banovic brothers.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Baly, we are at the time when we will take 1418 the adjournment. We will resume at 2.30.
Witness F, I remind you during the adjournment not to discuss your evidence with anybody including the members of the Prosecution team. We are adjourned until 2.30.
--- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m. 1419BLANK PAGE 1420
--- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Ms. Baly, you are to continue with your examination-in-chief. Yes.
MS. BALY: Thank you, Your Honour.
Q. Before the break, I was asking you some questions about the Banovic brothers.
MS. BALY: I'm sorry. Excuse me, Your Honours. These are not working.
Q. Witness F, before the break, I was asking you questions about the Banovic brothers, and you said that you could tell them apart because one had longer hair?
A. That's right.
Q. Was there any other features about the Banovic brothers that allowed you to tell them apart?
A. The one with the longer hair was the one who usually carried a baseball bat. That was his staple tool when he did the rounds or walked around, and that is how you could tell him apart. And as for the physical appearance, I couldn't really explain it in detail.
Q. What did you see the one with the longer hair and the baseball bat doing in the camp?
A. He beat prisoners with that. He beat me too.
Q. What about the other Banovic brother with the shorter hair? What did you see him doing in the camp?
A. He was there, but I did not see him beat, but he was in the camp.
Q. Witness F, did you see new prisoners arriving in the camp? 1421
A. I did.
Q. What would happen to those new prisoners when they arrived?
A. New detainees would come to the reception office where their names were taken down, and already there they would be beaten and battered.
Q. Did you ever see the commander of the camp, Sikirica, present when that was happening?
Q. How often?
A. Several times.
Q. I want to take you now, Witness F, to some specific occasions when you saw beatings taking place. Firstly, did you know a person with a surname Dizdarevic?
A. I did.
Q. Was that person an inmate of the camp?
A. No, he wasn't. His sons were.
Q. Did he ever come to the camp when you were there?
A. He came before that once, and second time he came he was killed at the entrance to the camp.
Q. Did you see that take place?
A. I couldn't see all of that.
Q. Did you see any of -- any of what took place?
A. Yes. I saw him pass by the dormitory riding a bicycle, taking the path, and I heard a shot. I couldn't see anything else.
Q. How did you find out that he'd been killed?
A. The detainees were saying that he had been killed and that he 1422 never came back. And a few days later, his sons said that he had been killed.
Q. You've described some beatings that took place during the day. Did anything take place at night-time?
A. At night-time there were also beatings, and it went on by day or at night-time.
Q. Do you know or did you know a person by the name of Drago Tokmadzic?
A. I did.
Q. And who was he?
A. He was a policeman in Prijedor.
Q. Was he also an inmate at the camp?
A. He was.
Q. Did anything happen to him during his time at the camp?
A. Yes. He was beaten one night, and then he died due to the injuries.
Q. Did you actually see that beating, Witness F?
Q. Did you see his body?
A. The body? No.
Q. How do you know, Witness F, that he was beaten and died?
A. We, the detainees, could communicate between us and talk, and that is how.
Q. Did you know a person by the name of Fikret Avdic?
A. Yes. 1423BLANK PAGE 1424
Q. How did you know him?
A. He was a good friend of mine.
Q. Was he also an inmate at the camp?
A. He was.
Q. Did anything happen to him?
A. Yes. He, too, died as a result of beating.
Q. Did you see his body?
A. I did.
Q. Where did you see his body?
A. On the garbage dump opposite Room 3.
Q. Do you know or did you know a person by the name of Besim Hergic?
A. I did.
Q. Did that person have a nickname?
A. I don't know.
Q. Was that person also detained in the camp?
A. He was.
Q. Did anything happen to him during his time at the camp?
A. He was also beaten and died.
Q. Did you see that person's body?
Q. Did you know a person by the name of Car?
A. I did.
Q. And how did you know him?
A. By sight from around the town.
Q. Did you see him in the camp? Was he an inmate in the camp? 1425
A. He had already died by the time I arrived there.
Q. You mentioned a place where the bodies were dumped. Have you marked that on your map? Did you mark that on your map?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you call that place? What was the name of it as you marked it on the map?
A. I think garbage dump or something like that.
Q. Witness F, was there a person who was -- who had formerly been a butcher detained in the camp with you?
A. He was.
Q. What was his name?
A. Zehro Causevic.
Q. Did anything happen to him when he was in the camp?
A. He was beaten daily, I could say, so that worms developed in his arm. And after that, he was transferred somewhere and he did not return.
Q. Witness F, were you, yourself, ever beaten while you were in the camp?
Q. When was that?
A. It was on the 12th -- I'm not sure, 12th July I think -- no, 5th, the 5th.
Q. Can you describe to the Court, please, what happened on that occasion?
A. Around 6.00 in the afternoon, through the camp gate entered in a car Dusan Knezevic, Duca, Zoran Zigic, Zoran Vokic, Zeljko Timarac, and 1426 some others whom I did not know. They fetched up in front of the dormitory and called out my name. And then they took me to that room where they usually beat, and it is there that they beat me.
Q. What did they beat you with?
A. Dusan Knezevic had a baseball bat, Zoran Zigic had a police baton, Zeljko Timarac had a kind of a rod, a stick with a metal ball on it, and Vokic only had an automatic weapon.
Q. Whereabouts on your body were you beaten?
A. All over.
Q. Whose shift was on duty on that occasion?
Q. Was anything said to you during the beating?
A. Yes. They were asking me questions while they beat me; where was my money, where is my gold? Where was I during the attack on Prijedor, what was I doing, and along those lines. But their first questions were about money and the rest.
Q. For how long did the beating continue?
A. About half an hour.
Q. And what happened to you, to your body as a result of that beating?
A. My arm was broken, my nose was broken, injuries on the head, injuries to my leg, on the back, all over my body.
Q. Immediately after the beating, did you return to your dormitory, that is, Room 1?
A. Yes. 1427
Q. How did you manage to get back there?
A. Across the yard, I somehow made it to the barrel which was in the centre where we used to have lunch, and there I washed my face. I somehow made it to the dormitory, and fainted.
Q. Were any other prisoners beaten on that night or on that day?
A. Yes, quite a number of them.
Q. Did you receive any medical attention that night, that is after the beating?
Q. Did you or anyone else request any medical attention?
A. We dared not ask for it.
Q. On the next day, did you receive any medical attention?
Q. In so far as the injuries you received as a result of that beating, did you receive any medical attention at any time?
A. I did, yes.
Q. When was that?
A. It was two days after the beating, but that night, when I was beaten, very many other prisoners also received beatings, so that the dormitories were full of men who were only half alive. And when Kajin's shift on duty -- came on duty, he saw what state we were in and ordered that a doctor come to examine us.
Q. And did a doctor in fact come to examine you?
A. He did.
Q. Do you know the name of that doctor? 1428
A. Dr. Barudija.
Q. After being examined, were you removed from the camp?
A. Dr. Barudija said who was to be hospitalised, that is, and those who had sustained more injuries, he ordered that we be taken to the hospital.
Q. How many were taken to the hospital?
A. About 15 of us.
Q. Which hospital did you go to?
A. It's in Prijedor. We called it the new hospital, at Urije.
Q. How many hospitals at that time were there in Prijedor?
A. There were two hospitals in Prijedor, the old hospital and the new hospital. And there was the health centre.
Q. Did that new hospital to where you were taken have any -- have a name?
A. I couldn't say, no.
Q. How did you get to the hospital?
A. The inmates who could walk, they were taken in an army van, but I couldn't walk, and there was another guy, Edin Ganic, who could not walk either, and we were taken in an ambulance there, because he had a broken leg.
Q. Witness F, can you name any of the other inmates who were taken to the hospital, apart from Edin Ganic at that time?
A. I can, yes.
Q. All right. Can you do so, please?
A. With me there were also Edin Ganic; Abaz Ganic, his father; Eso 1429 Islamovic; Alisic, I believe his first name was Admir; and there was an Albanian. That's it, yes. And there were a couple of others, too, but they went back and we were left in the hospital.
Q. For how long did you remain in the hospital?
A. About ten days or so.
Q. Did you receive any treatment in the hospital, and if so, what treatment did you receive?
A. The treatment boiled down to x-rays and a plaster cast on my arm, and that was it.
Q. Do you know the name or names of any of the doctors or other persons who treated you?
JUDGE MAY: Does it matter what the names of the doctors were?
MS. BALY: Thank you, Your Honour.
Q. During your time at the hospital, were there any soldiers of Serbian ethnicity at the hospital?
A. What do you mean? Guards or wounded?
A. Yes, there were.
Q. Did you have any contact with them while you were at the hospital?
Q. Can you describe what happened in relation to those soldiers?
A. We were on a floor -- I mean, the inmates were on one floor and those Serb wounded were on another floor, and they would come to our floor and beat us. 1430
Q. Now, while you were at the hospital, did you -- were you spoken to by some military interrogators?
A. I was.
Q. What did they ask you?
A. They introduced themselves and said that they were the military police from Banja Luka and said that they had come to investigate who had beaten us, who had done it to us.
Q. And did you tell them?
A. I did, I did, yes.
Q. Did those interrogators make notes during that interrogation?
Q. Did you ever see those interrogators again? That is, after that time they asked you questions about who had done --
Q. I think you said you were in the hospital for a period of ten days. What happened after you were released from the hospital?
A. They took me back to Keraterm from the hospital. A van arrived and took me back to Keraterm.
Q. Now, did you ever see any of the persons who had beaten you in Keraterm camp again, that is after you returned?
A. I did.
Q. Who did you see?
A. I saw them all again. They never stopped coming.
Q. I want to take you, Witness F, to an incident known as the Room 3 massacre which occurred on the night of the 24th of July 1992. Where were 1431 you on that night?
A. I was in dormitory 1.
Q. Can you describe, please, what happened?
A. Well, it was a day like any other, that is, beatings, battery, and the night fell. And then some -- I don't know, two army trucks arrived, and those soldiers began to take their positions and there was noise among them. The commander that night was Kole. And we heard him shout that he would not allow that.
We didn't know what it was all about. And when it was all over and when it went quiet again after midnight, after midnight they started rounds of fire and we heard Kole shout not to fire at number 1. And as they were taking positions before that fire, they had a machine-gun nest which they did not use which was there, but there was -- it wasn't manned ever. So they moved it to in front of Room 3 where that massacre happened.
Q. Did you see the massacre or did you just hear what was going on?
A. We could not see anything. We only heard it.
Q. The following day, did you see a number of bodies?
Q. Where did you see those bodies, and what happened to those bodies?
A. The next day -- well, those bodies were in front of the dormitories. The next day a truck came belonging to AutoTransport company, a trailer, and they ordered those who were fitter to come out, stronger individuals to come out and load those bodies. And when they were loaded, the truck left, and all the wounded who were helpless were 1432 also put on those trucks and they were taken away together. After that a water system arrived to wash off the blood which had poured down the sides of the truck. There were hydrants in the yard, and they used them also to wash away the blood.
Q. Who gave the order to load the bodies?
A. I cannot tell you the -- who exactly that was.
Q. Was Sikirica present when those bodies were being loaded?
A. He was.
Q. Where were you at that time?
A. Dormitory 1.
Q. Witness F, do you know how many bodies were loaded on that truck?
A. That truck was full, and it is assumed, that is, those who were there said it was 200 or 300, I don't know, but the truck was full.
Q. The occupants of Room 3, where had they come from?
A. They came from neighbouring villages around Prijedor; Zecovi, Carakovo, from somewhere there, from those villages around Prijedor.
Q. Prior to the massacre, how were they treated in the camp?
A. They were locked in that room for two or three days. They got no food or water.
Q. The following date, did something occur on the following night?
A. The following night a similar thing happened.
Q. Did you see what happened?
A. Well, they were killing again like the previous night.
Q. Did you see them killing or did you hear it or how did you know that -- what had happened? 1433BLANK PAGE 1434
A. One could hear the gunfire and how people cried for help.
Q. Were you in your dormitory at that time?
Q. And did you see any bodies following that incident?
A. Yes, the next day.
Q. What happened to those bodies?
A. They were loaded onto an army truck and taken away.
Q. Now, is it the case, Witness F, that you were eventually, that is on the 6th of August, transferred from the Keraterm camp to the Trnopolje camp?
Q. How were you transported there?
A. First two buses arrived in Keraterm and a list of 120 inmates was read out. And they were taken in the direction of Omarska. And for the rest of us, buses came and they put us on to those buses and took us to Trnopolje.
Q. Who read out the list of 120 inmates who were taken to Omarska?
A. Dusko Sikirica.
Q. When you arrived in Trnopolje camp, did you see the person Zoran Zigic?
Q. What did you see him doing?
A. That was the first day when they brought us there. He was again beating a prisoner but later on, he did not appear.
Q. Do you know who the camp commander of that camp was? 1435
A. Slobodan Kuruzovic, who was a teacher from Prijedor.
Q. Witness F, were you eventually released on the 13th of August from Trnopolje?
Q. How did you manage to get released? What did you have to do to get released?
A. I was not the only one who did this. We all had to do this. The procedure was that you had to go to the municipal building. We had to say that we were leaving the territory because -- due to the financial situation, and that everything was then turned over, all the property, to the Serb Republic, and this had to be signed by Slobodan Kuruzovic.
Q. Did you sign that document voluntarily?
A. No. My mother had to do all this for me.
MS. BALY: That's the examination-in-chief. Thank you, Your Honours.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Ms. Baly. Mr. Greaves? Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:
Q. Witness F, if you don't understand the question which I ask you, please stop me, won't you, and ask me to repeat it for you so that I can put it again to you? Witness F, it's right, isn't it, that in connection with the events which happened to you in 1992, you've made a number of different statements or have given a number of different accounts to various people? Do you accept that?
A. I did give statements, but later on I distanced myself from one of 1436 these statements.
Q. Yes, we are going to come back to that in a moment, Witness F, but let's just make sure that we know exactly what it is you've done. There was a newspaper interview which you gave to a Bosnian newspaper in July, 1995; is that right?
Q. And then in January, 1998, did you write out in hand a document which you headed "Statement" and did you send that to the Tribunal here in the Hague?
Q. Did you sign that document?
Q. Together with that document, did you send to the Tribunal a copy of the newspaper article which had appeared as a result of your interview?
Q. Sometime after sending the handwritten statement to the Tribunal, were you interviewed by an investigator?
A. After a period of time.
Q. About a couple of months later? Would that be right?
A. I cannot say exactly. I don't --
Q. If I suggested to you it was in -- on the 27th and 28th of March, 1998, and the person who interviewed you was a lady, I think Kari Seppanen, does that refresh your memory?
A. Yes, Kari, yes, but the date, no. 1437
Q. Then you made a further written statement in a formal way to the Office of the Prosecutor on the 15th of September of last year; is that correct?
A. I did not write it down. They did it.
Q. Of course. But did you at the end of it have it read back to you and did you acknowledge that it was true to the best of your knowledge and belief -- knowledge and recollection, I'm sorry?
Q. Between being interviewed by the lady whose named we mentioned, Kari Seppanen, and making the written statement in September of last year, did you -- were you interviewed on any other occasion by the Office of the Prosecutor?
Q. When you wrote out in hand and sent the Tribunal your statement and you attached to it a copy of the newspaper report, why did you attach the newspaper report to the statement, Witness F?
A. I simply thought that it might be of value to them.
Q. Were you not, by attaching that newspaper article without any further comment about it, telling the Tribunal that what was in that newspaper article was a true account of what had happened to you? Isn't that what you were saying to the Tribunal?
Q. Your position now as regards that document is this, isn't it, that the newspaper article -- the article was not written by you and "the journalist has mixed up some details on some aspects of my story"? 1438
Q. And secondly, this, "I can tell you today that the story published in the newspaper differs from my own and that I did not write the article. Where there is a discrepancy in the stories, I stand by my statement. The journalist did not have all the details correct. I did not see the newspaper article before it was published." Is that the position you take today about the newspaper article?
Q. Did you read the article again before attaching it to your handwritten statement?
A. I did read it, but it wasn't important at all.
Q. It wasn't important? You didn't think that the details contained in that were at all important; is that it?
A. Certain details were important, but the details were -- where there is discrepancy between my account and his article, that was not important at all.
Q. When you were interviewed by Kari Seppanen, I suggest not long after sending your handwritten statement in, why didn't you tell that person that the newspaper article contained discrepancies, Witness F?
A. Because he asked me that.
Q. I'm sorry, he asked you -- he asked you what exactly?
A. He asked me whether that article was truthful. I told him that I had not read the article before it was published and that the journalist confused the names and events. He -- his interest was simply to have this published. 1439
Q. Witness F, we have established that the person who interviewed you, Kari Seppanen, was a lady. Did you tell the lady interviewer from the OTP that the article which had appeared and which you had attached to the handwritten statement -- did you tell the lady investigator that there were discrepancies in it?
A. Kari Seppanen is not a woman. It is a man.
Q. It may well be that I've been misled by something I was told by the Prosecutor, who referred to her as a woman; not any of the people who are sitting there at the moment. It's Rebecca, who is the case manager, told me it was a woman. I apologise, Witness F, I will withdraw that question. Why -- can you help us about this, please: Did you describe the newspaper article in your handwritten statement of January, 1998, why did you describe it in this way? "My eyewitness report on the murder and torture committed in the Keraterm concentration camp was published in a newspaper in Sarajevo and Frankfurt? There I described and listed by name the persons who killed and tortured in Keraterm." Why did you describe it as your eyewitness report, Witness F?
A. I said that so that the Court -- actually, that the people here in the Hague would believe that I was a detainee in Keraterm, because at that time it was difficult to get on a list for testifying. You had to prove that you had been an inmate. This is why, in addition to the article, I sent off other documents which proved that I had been a detainee.
Q. Witness F, I suggest that what you meant by the phrase my "eyewitness report" is this: That this newspaper article represents the truth of what happened to me. That's what you were suggesting to the 1440 Tribunal, weren't you?
Q. And this is the situation: You have now realised several years later that it did, indeed, contain discrepancies and that that might reveal you to be someone who was not a truthful witness, Witness F, isn't that right?
Q. And what is happening in the year 2000 when you see the Office of the Prosecutor is you are desperately trying to back-pedal from those discrepancies which would so reveal you to be an untruthful and unreliable witness.
A. And what is the question?
Q. What you are doing in the year 2000 is you are desperately trying to back-pedal from the discrepancies which, I suggest, will reveal you as someone who is not truthful and reliable. That's what you are trying to do in the year 2000, isn't it, and now?
A. No, that is your opinion.
Q. Just have a look at one or two details, Witness F. Let's discuss, for a moment, the accounts which you have given about the beating which you received from Zoran Zigic. Would you accept that this is what you told the newspaper, "I was to be taken to Keraterm. The moment I arrived to Keraterm, Zoran Zigic, formerly a taxi driver, and Dusan Knezevic, Duca, came to collect me. Those two had 'treated' almost all of the prisoners. They were worse than beasts. They simply enjoyed in human sufferings and bloodsheding." 1441 Do you accept that is what you told the newspaper?
A. I said their names and he treated them in a journalistic way. He asked me who they were, I told him, and then they did the rest.
Q. But do you accept that you told the journalist that you were beaten, you were collected and beaten the moment you arrived at Keraterm?
Q. Let's go on. "Zigic was beating me with everything he could find, a police club, a chain, an iron ball, a knife. On that night, he broke my nose, my jaw, and both supraorbital arches were broken too. Dusan Knezevic, Duca, broke my arm." Did you say that to the journalist?
A. Not in such a comprehensive way.
Q. But in a general way, that's what you told him; is that right?
A. But not that much. I said that Knezevic had broken my arm, and that Zigic had broken my nose, and he filled in the rest.
Q. Did you tell the journalist what weapons had been used on you?
Q. Why didn't you tell the journalist that?
A. Was it important?
Q. Would you just please answer the question. Why didn't you tell the journalist what weapons you'd been beaten with?
A. Perhaps he didn't ask me.
Q. So the journalist simply made that up; is that right?
A. I did say that he had magnified things.
Q. Let's move, if we may, please, to your handwritten statement which you made in 1998. You wrote in that, "At about 6.00 in the afternoon of 1442 the 5th of July 1992, he," referring to Zoran Zigic, "and the above-mentioned group," which you named Dusan Knezevic, Zoran Vokic, Zeljko Timarac, and another person, "... he and the above-mentioned group came and asked me to come out of the dormitory. They took me to a part of the hangar where they ordered me to kneel and then started to vent, to torment me. Dusan Knezevic, Duca, had a baseball bat. Zoran Zigic had a police truncheon, and the other three had automatic rifles. They beat me with whatever they could lay their hands on."
Do you remember that?
A. Yes, and I stand by it.
Q. So according to you, they took you from the dormitory, took you straight to a part of the hangar where they made you kneel, and at that point you were beaten. That's what you were saying in 1998?
Q. Why did you then tell the Office of the Prosecutor in the year 2000 that they began to beat you whilst you were still outside on the pista?
A. Because they also did beat me. It was that important -- they beat me while I was walking. Perhaps I forgot to mention that the first time.
Q. Again you told the Office of the Prosecutor that they were asking you out on the pista for money, gold, and other valuables. Why didn't you mention that in your statement, your handwritten statement of 1998, Witness F?
A. I did not remember it, perhaps. But they did ask that of me.
Q. There was talk about you having been involved in supporting rebels 1443 by transporting food and financing the SDA, and there being a sniper who'd shot from your house. That's what you told the Office of the Prosecutor in the year 2000, isn't it?
A. These were questions that they were asking me, Dusan Knezevic and company, while he were beating me.
Q. Again, why didn't you put that into your written statement of January 1998, Witness F?
A. I did not remember it.
Q. You were interviewed by some military interrogators at the hospital as to who had beaten you in Keraterm. That was only on one occasion when they made a visit?
Q. They had plainly come as a result of a request to investigate the incident; is that right?
A. No. What request?
Q. Well, perhaps we'll move on. Did the military investigators, military police come on any other occasion whilst you were in the hospital?
A. Not to my room.
Q. Why did you tell the Tribunal in your handwritten statement then, Witness F, this: "The military police from Banja Luka came to interrogate us every day." Why did you tell them that?
A. Perhaps I wrote it that way. I may have been thinking about daily interrogations.
Q. I suggest that what you have just told us about the military 1444 interrogators coming only once and what is written in your handwritten statement, those two things are completely different, Witness F, and I suggest to you that you are, at best, exaggerating greatly in your evidence and at worst, you are simply lying to us, aren't you?
A. No. That is your view.
MR. GREAVES: If Your Honour would just give me a moment, please?
Q. After you were beaten by Zoran Zigic on the 5th of July, Witness F, it was the following day that a doctor came and examined you, decided you should go to hospital, and you went to hospital almost immediately; is that right?
Q. How soon after being examined did you go to the hospital?
A. The examination took place two days later.
Q. Between you being beaten and your going to hospital, were any other prisoners beaten?
Q. And they were taken out and beaten but none of them died?
A. That I don't know.
Q. Did you hear of any of them dying?
A. People were dying every day.
Q. As a result of those beatings, Witness F, did you hear of anybody dying?
A. Many died due to beatings.
Q. Witness F, I think the question is quite clear. You've told us that between your beating and your being taken to hospital, that prisoners 1445 were taken out and beaten. The question is clear. Did you hear of any of those dying as a result? Please answer the question.
A. Yes, they died.
Q. How many?
A. I don't know.
Q. How many prisoners were beaten?
A. Many, about 15.
Q. Why, then, did you in your handwritten statement tell the Tribunal this? This comes immediately after you've described your own beating. "About 30 prisoners were beaten that night and a couple of them died from beating and internal bleeding." And then you name two doctors and said that "they came in the morning and found that all the inmates had died a natural death. The guards threw them on the garbage dump." Why did you put that in your handwritten statement, Witness F?
A. I thought it would be important.
Q. Just turning for a moment again to the detail of your newspaper interview and your beating. You told, did you not, the newspaper that you were accused of cooperating with the leadership of the SDA? You remember that?
A. Do I remember what?
Q. Do you remember telling the journalist, the one who published or got -- wrote the article, that you had been accused of cooperating with the leadership of the SDA? Do you remember that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Printing their propaganda material? Did you tell them that? 1446
A. He added that.
Q. He added that. Transporting food for rebel Muslims, together with another man? Do you remember that, telling him that?
Q. That you --
A. I did -- what I said was that I had been accused of that whilst being beaten.
Q. Yes. That's exactly what it says. "I was also accused of shooting at Serbs with a sniper and financing the SDA party in Prijedor." Did you tell him that?
A. I said it.
Q. Did you tell the journalist this? "That was my indictment and Serb justice was done accordingly. For 74 days I was in the hands of Chetnik beasts. Today I cannot believe that I used to live with those people, socialise with them, and even had friends amongst them. They are sick people. It is some kind of genetic disorder." Did you tell the journalist that?
Q. Did you use the phrase "Chetniks" to describe people who were on the other side?
Q. Did you -- do you recall telling the newspaper journalist about the death of Mr. Dizdarevic?
A. I just mentioned it to him.
Q. And you told him some of the details of what you'd seen and how 1447 you'd seen it, did you?
A. Yes, as individual details. To him what was important was only the names of those who had been killed.
Q. Regardless of what he thought was important, let's look at what you told him, Witness F. Did you tell him how you'd seen an older man through a hole in your sleeping room?
A. Yes, I knew that man personally.
Q. And that you'd seen him through a hole in your sleeping room? Is that how you told the journalist what you'd seen?
A. I don't remember what I told him, but I did see him, through a hole or from the pista where we were, but I saw him.
Q. What size was this hole through which you saw Mr. Dizdarevic?
A. The door to the dormitory was the size of the dormitory.
Q. So you're not talking about a hole, small hole in the wall, you're talking about a door, are you? That's what you call a hole, is it?
A. I never said a hole. Everybody knows what a hole is.
Q. Why didn't you mention the death of Mr. Dizdarevic in your handwritten statement, Witness F?
A. Perhaps I did not think it important.
Q. You plainly thought it important enough to put into your interview and to mention it to the Office of the Prosecutor, didn't you?
A. I knew of other cases which seemed better for the Prosecution than that one.
Q. You were anxious to become a witness in this case, weren't you?
A. Yes. And I will continue to testify in other cases. 1448
Q. Why were you so anxious, if I may ask, please, Witness F, to become a witness?
A. Because I went through a great deal and I want it to come out. I want justice to be done.
MR. GREAVES: May we go into closed session, please, Your Honour?
JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, yes.
(16 lines redacted)
MR. GREAVES: 1449
Q. I'd like to ask you now about the village or small town of Hambarine, Witness F.
Q. Did you hear of or know of an attack which took place on some Serbs at a checkpoint manned by Muslims in that village?
A. Yes, I heard about it.
Q. And did you hear how many Serbs were killed as a result of that incident?
A. It was said that there were two.
Q. And did you also hear that as a result of that, a demand was made by the Serb authorities for the surrender of the people who'd carried out the shooting?
A. That's right. They issued an ultimatum to turn over the weapons.
Q. To turn over the weapons and the people or just weapons?
A. Weapons. They said to turn over the weapons and issue them with an ultimatum.
Q. And was that ultimatum, as you understand it, and you have heard, the cause of the attack on Hambarine?
A. That's right, yes, something like that. But I had nothing to do with this ultimatum because I lived in a completely different part of the town.
Q. I'm not suggesting that you did have anything to do with it, Witness F. Don't misunderstand me.
A. You asked me if I had something to do with the ultimatum. I think that was the question or the drift of the question. 1450
Q. I'm not going to argue about that. Between the takeover and the date of your arrest, Witness F, some assistance was given to you by some people. They were of Serb ethnicity; is that right?
A. When they were rounding up people in my part of the town, yes, they helped me. They were of Serb ethnicity.
Q. Turning now to the time of your arrival at Keraterm, initially it's right, isn't it, that Zoran Zigic prevented your -- stopped anybody from beating you at that point; is that right?
A. Knezevic hit me straight away, and Zigic told me [as interpreted] not to touch me because I was his. Now, what he meant by this word "his" --
Q. You told us in evidence that you had seen other detainees being beaten upon their arrival at that point, and that that was done with the following implements, Witness F: Batons, baseball bats, rods, hands, and feet. Why did you tell the Office of the Prosecutor in the year 2000 that you could see how other guards beat prisoners with their batons in the vicinity? In other words, why have you now added all those other implements?
A. Because I remembered that they were also used then. I stand by that, that they were also used.
MR. GREAVES: Again, may we go very briefly into private session, please.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes.
(1 lines redacted) 1451
(25 lines redacted) 1452
(17 lines redacted)
JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, we are back in open session.
MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much.
Q. I'd like to ask you now about the water truck, please, Witness F, that was kept at Keraterm. It's right, isn't it, that there was a regular supply of water using that water truck; do you accept that?
A. Yes. The water truck brought the water, but there were also hydrants in the compound from which water could also be used. 1453BLANK PAGE 1454
Q. And so the detainees were able to use the water from the water trucks and had no restriction on use of the water hydrants; is that right?
A. Well, there were certain restrictions as far as hydrants were concerned.
Q. As far as food was concerned, where was food prepared, Witness F?
A. The food was prepared outside the camp. It was brought there, and we heard -- we heard that it was prepared in the canteen of the Ljubija mine.
JUDGE ROBINSON: We can go to ten past 4.00 with the cooperation of the interpreters.
MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much. I hadn't been actually watching the time, and I'm sorry for that.
Q. Witness F -- I'm sorry, just give me a moment please, Your Honour.
No question of the kitchens at Keraterm being used. The food came from outside the camp prepared by others who were not at the camp; is that correct?
A. It is.
Q. Can you explain then, please, why you said in your handwritten statement this: "We were fed once a day with a piece of bread and .2 of a litre of cabbage or bean soup. Sometimes the kitchens would not work because of power cuts so that we got our food once every day, every two days," implying, I suggest, that the food was being prepared on the premises. Why did you say that in your handwritten statement, Witness F? 1455
A. Not the kitchen in the compound, a kitchen in the town. There was no kitchen in the compound. The town was without electricity.
Q. I'd like just now to return, please, if we may to the killing of the man called Dizdarevic. As far as you could tell, was that man killed off the premises of Keraterm, off the grounds of Keraterm?
A. I cannot be absolutely sure, but he was killed outside the Keraterm camp, next to the reception hut. Whether it was in front of the camp or inside, but it was right next to the reception hut.
Q. So let's just be absolutely clear. You cannot say whether it was inside or outside the perimeter that that killing took place; is that correct?
A. I did not see him being killed. I heard about it, and he -- but his sons said that he had been killed because he never came back and all trace of him is missing, and his sons were with me in the camp, and we all watched as he would ride on his bicycle past the dormitory.
Q. So you cannot say, either of your own observation or of your own knowledge, whether it was somebody on the camp staff who killed him or somebody who was not part of the camp staff, can you?
A. Well, there were guards at the entrance into the camp.
Q. Please answer the question, Witness K. You'll get away from here a lot quicker if you listen to the question and answer the question which you have been asked. I'll repeat it for you. You cannot say, can you, either from your own observation or from knowledge given to you, whether it was somebody on the camp staff or somebody who was not on the camp staff who carried out the killing. You simply cannot say, can you? 1456
A. I cannot, no.
Q. The people who administered the beating to you were all people who came from outside the camp; is that right?
Q. Who do you say of those was somebody who was inside the camp?
A. Zoran Karlica or Goran Karlica.
Q. Can I turn now, please, to your interrogation and indeed interrogations in general? When you were interrogated in Keraterm, did you know the names of the interrogators?
A. I knew names. I even knew some of those investigators.
Q. Were they people who were part of a group who were designated as specialist interrogators?
A. What do you mean?
Q. Yes. Was there a specialist group of people who were civilian policemen who were designated as interrogators at Keraterm?
A. Yes. Above Room number 1.
Q. The people who interrogated you, did you know their names?
Q. What were the names?
A. Bane Siljegovic, Branko Bucalo and others elude me right now.
Q. Would you please help Their Honours about this, Witness F? You've just told us that you knew the names of them. Why did you tell the Office of the Prosecutor in September 2000 this: "After ten days I was taken back to the Keraterm camp and interrogated. I did not know the names of those interrogators." Why did you tell the Office of the Prosecutor that, 1457 if you did, in fact, as you've now told us, know the names?
A. I learned them later on.
Q. Since September, 2000? You've learnt the names since September, 2000? Is that what you're saying?
Q. What did you mean by, "I learned them later on," then, Witness F?
A. After that first interrogation.
Q. You see, when you made your handwritten statement in January, 1998, you were able to tell the Tribunal this: "Apart from the guards at the camp, there was a special interrogation commission made up of civilian policemen. Their task was to gather data on all prisoners. They processed all the prisoners." And then you named four people. Now, help us again. Is it a case of you having forgotten in the meantime, when you were interviewed by the Office of the Prosecutor, who had interviewed you, who had interrogated you, and you've now remembered again? Is that it?
Q. The problem is, Witness F, you can't get your story right two occasions running, can you, because you're not being very truthful with this Tribunal, are you?
A. That is what you think.
Q. The guard who escorted people to the interrogations, did you know that person by name?
Q. Was it obvious from what you could see of him that he was somebody who was from a separate unit from the personnel of the -- of Keraterm? 1458
A. He wore the uniform of the reserve police.
Q. I'd like to turn now briefly to the incident of the killings at Room 3, Witness F. Would you accept this, that prior to it happening, you heard Kolundzija, Kole, with soldiers who had come from outside the camp and he was arguing with them? Do you remember that?
Q. And you heard specifically this, Kole saying, "I cannot let this happen."
A. One could hear it.
Q. And did you overhear one of the soldiers from outside the camp saying that they would take full responsibility for what was about to happen?
A. One could hear it.
Q. And did you also hear during the shooting Kole, at some distance from you, telling them not to shoot?
A. On -- at number 1, "Don't shoot at number 1."
Q. Can I now ask you, please, about the day after that incident? You claim that you were outside during the course of the day following. Apart from those you have already discussed, did you see somebody called Zivko Knezevic in the camp that day?
Q. Is that a name with which you are familiar, Witness F?
Q. You see, I suggest to you that he was, in fact, the man who was the commander of the camp; isn't that right? 1459
A. I don't know that.
Q. And that you are incorrect when you allege that Dusko Sikirica was the commander.
A. I affirm it and I stand by it.
Q. And I suggest to you that he never conducted delegations about the place, delegations of civilians.
A. This is what you say.
Q. And he wasn't, was he, present at the closing of the camp, reading out any names?
A. He was present, he was present, and he read out 120 inmates' names.
Q. He certainly wasn't the commander on that day, was he?
A. I don't know who the commander was, but he read it. He is the one who decided who was going to go. And who the commander above him or underneath him was, that I don't know.
Q. Are you, by your answer, at that point, Witness F, saying that he was not, as far as you know, the commander on the day when those people were sent to Omarska?
A. I do not say that, and I did not say that.
Q. Well, your evidence is that Dusko Sikirica was the commander of the camp. Are you asserting today that on the day when the camp was closed, that Dusko Sikirica continued to be the commander of the camp?
A. I assert that because he read that list.
Q. Do you know somebody by the name of Fikret Hedic?
A. No. 1460
Q. If such a person were to suggest or say, rather, that the calling out of the names had been carried out by an army captain first class, you would say that's incorrect?
Q. Do you know somebody called Karanfil Aliskovic?
Q. If he was to assert that it was a man called Kondic who'd called out the names, that would be incorrect, would it?
A. I would say that it was not correct.
Q. Returning to Senad Kurbegovic, if he was to assert that the commander of the camp, the entire camp was Zivko Knezevic, who he knew before the war, he'd be wrong about that, would he?
A. That is his opinion.
Q. Help us about this, please, Witness F: In your handwritten statement, you described on two occasions Dusko Sikirica and you use this phrase "commander of all the guards". What I suggest to you is that the role that Dusko Sikirica played in Keraterm was commander of security, not commander of the shifts, not commander of the guards who were inside the camp, but commander of security. That's the position. That's correct, isn't it?
A. I'm not an expert in these military matters.
MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I believe I can finish even if we go slightly past ten past 4.00 I think that's a sensible thing rather than have a dribble move over into tomorrow.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, that would be acceptable. 1461
MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much. I don't want to start gabbling and hurrying.
Q. Again, I suggest to you that he was not present on the day after the incident in Room 3 at all. That's correct, isn't it?
Q. In evidence you told us today that at the time when these events were taking place, he was around 30ish in age.
A. That is -- that was my estimate. Now he looks twice that age, as if he were 130.
Q. Can you tell us, please, the name of the person with whom you were friendly at school, who you believed married him?
Q. Would you tell us, please, what the name was?
A. Yes, Mira Sekulic.
Q. And at which school were you and she?
A. The construction technical school.
Q. On the map which you have produced of the camp, you have put the words "military prison". Is that a place where Serb prisoners were kept?
Q. How many prisoners were kept there?
A. I don't know. We had no access there.
Q. And did you hear nothing -- nothing about it whilst you were there, no information given to you?
A. Who was to give us the information?
Q. The -- just help us about this, please, Witness F. The total 1462 number of people detained at Keraterm whilst you were there, can you tell us, roughly speaking, how many they were?
A. 1.000 to 1.200. Each room contained 300 to 400 or 200. It depended.
Q. Were people released from the camp whilst you were there?
A. Where were they releasing them?
Q. From Keraterm.
A. Sometimes they would line up and call out names and they would take people away, but they were not releasing anyone so far as I know.
Q. Would this be correct, Witness F, that during your time at Keraterm, you and the other more than 1.000 prisoners were at all times in the power of the Serb authorities?
Q. And they could have killed you at any time, you and all your fellow detainees?
Q. I just want to return briefly to the issue of the title and function of Dusko Sikirica. Could you please just have a look at a copy of a document, please. Having looked at it, could you perhaps put it on the monitor. There are some copies for my learned friends and for the Court in the English version thereof.
Witness F, firstly can you tell us, please, have you ever seen that document before?
Q. Can you just do one thing with me, please, would you look at the 1463 bottom right-hand corner and just indicate it by putting your finger on it on the monitor, do you see in the bottom right-hand corner in your language, I think, a signature right at the bottom and some typed words written above it; do you see that?
A. Yes, I see it, yes.
Q. Would you be so kind as to read out what is written there, please, nothing else, just that corner signature and note?
A. "Record compiled by commander of the Keraterm security."
Q. Signed Dusko Sikirica, is that right, or it appears to be signed Dusko Sikirica?
A. Dusko Sikirica, yes.
Q. Does that refresh your memory in any way, Witness F, as to the proper title and role of Dusko Sikirica in the camp?
MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much for letting me go slightly past ten past 4.00, Your Honour. It's most kind.
JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. Greaves. We are going to take the adjournment now and we will resume on Monday morning at 9.30. Witness F, you are reminded that during the adjournment, you are not to discuss your evidence with anybody, including members of the Prosecution team.
We are adjourned.
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.13 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday the 2nd day
of April, 2001, at 9.30 a.m. 1464BLANK PAGE