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Wednesday, 24 May 2006
(Private session)
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(Open session)
THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, we are in open session.
JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much.
MR. WHITING: Thank you.
Q. Witness, I'd like to turn now to the year 1990. Did you become aware in that year of a petition related to the insignia in the police?
A. Yeah. In 1990 I knew that there was a petition that was being circulated around the police station and that was signed on that day when I received that information by 12 police officers, i.e., by 12 authorised personnel. The petition was relative to the fact that their uniform had not been changed and the fact that the five-pointed star had not been taken off.
THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter's correction.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The fact that the -- that there were intentions to change the uniform, but that those who signed the petition did not want the uniforms to be changed or the five-pointed star to be removed from the caps.
MR. WHITING:
Q. To your knowledge, did Milan Martic have anything to do with this petition?
A. According to my information, Milan Martic did have to do with that petition. He was one of the signatories of that petition. 4412
Q. In August of 1990, were you aware of something called the log revolution?
A. On the 17th of August, 1990, on the Serbian radio of Knin we could hear alert signs and Dr. Milan Babic declaring the state of war.
Q. Just before that happened, did something happen at the police station in Knin involving weapons? And if you could first just tell me what you heard happened, and then we'll go into private session for you to tell us how you heard that.
A. Yes. I heard that there had been a break-in into the -- into the arms depot at the police station of Knin. I also heard that the arms had been taken away from there.
Q. Did you hear anything about where they were taken?
A. I heard that the weapons had been taken to Golubic.
Q. Did you hear how many weapons approximately were taken?
A. There were long- and short-barrelled weapons as well as mines and explosives in the police station, and their numbers corresponded to the active and reserve police force numbers. In numbers, that would mean -- mean around 200 pieces altogether.
MR. WHITING: Your Honour, could we go into private session briefly?
JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
(Private session)
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(Open session)
THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we are in open session.
JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Mr. Whiting. 4414
MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
Q. Witness, we're now in open session, so bear in mind what that means.
In August of 1990, were barricades erected in the area around Knin?
A. Yes, barricades were erected in the area of Knin. I personally was able to see two such barricades, and I heard of the existence of three more. When I was on my way to work commuting from Knin to Split, I saw one such roadblock at the place called Konj in Vrbnik.
Q. And you said you saw a second barricade, and where was that?
A. The second one was in the place called Cenici -- or rather, Ozegovici, which is opposite from Slavko Ozegovic's house, that's to say. That's near the place called Klanac in the municipality of Drnis.
Q. Is that close to a place called Uzdolje?
A. This is one hamlet, as it were, in the village called Uzdolje. The entire area is, in fact, the village of Uzdolje.
Q. These two barricades that you yourself saw, were they Serb barricades or Croat barricades?
A. Those were Serb barricades.
Q. And what would happen when you went through those barricades?
A. As I was going through the barricades, vehicles were being searched and checked.
Q. Did you observe any signs or markings at these barricades?
A. At Konj there were no signs indicating it was a barricade. There were just two men standing along the road, and they were holding a sign, 4415 usually -- normally used by the police, a stop sign, which they used to pull the vehicles over.
Q. What about at the other barricade, did you observe any signs or markings?
A. I did not observe any signs indicating who was manning the barricades. The persons manning the barricades were variously dressed. Someone had parts of military uniform, others parts of police uniform, and others were in civilian clothes.
JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Sorry, at both locations or one or ...
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was the case at both locations.
JUDGE NOSWORTHY: Thank you, Mr. Witness.
MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
Q. Did the intermunicipal conference of the League of Communists of Croatia for Dalmatia take a position with -- on these barricades?
A. Yes, the intermunicipal conference took a position on the barricades, and this was at the gathering in August in 1990. It took a position on the entire situation in Dalmatia, with specific reference to Knin.
Q. And if you know, what was the position that it took?
A. The position of the intermunicipal conference of the League of Communists of Croatia for Dalmatia was that all the members of the League of Communists should do their best not to allow the situation to escalate, that a single drop of blood is shed.
MR. WHITING: Could we go into private session briefly, Your Honour? 4416
JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
(Private session)
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(Open session)
THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we are in open session. 4417
JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Yes, Mr. Whiting.
MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
Q. Witness, we're now back in open session. From what you could observe at the time, were these barricades, these Serb barricades, defensive barricades?
A. Based on what I was able to observe, the barricades were not defensive. First of all, based on my experience, I can tell you that the barricade at Ozegovici, or as we call it Cenici, to be more precise that's in the village of Uzdolje, had no other purpose than to psychologically intimidate citizens of both ethnicities. Why do I say this? Firstly, on the road from Knin to Sibenik, when one goes past the barricade at Cenici or, that's to say, Ozegovici, there are villages with a Serb majority. The town of Drnis itself had -- 20 per cent of the town residents were Serbs.
Secondly, the barricade at Konj, since the entire place is called Vrbnik and is in the immediate vicinity of Knin and borders with the village of Potkonje where 55 per cent of the population were -- where --
THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 95 per cent of the population were Croats and 5 per cent were Serbs. On the basis of all this, I conclude that the barricades had this psychological purpose of letting the village of Potkonje know who the boss is in the area.
MR. WHITING:
Q. That -- that last example that you've given with respect to the 4418 barricade at Konj and its effect that you saw that it had on the village of Potkonje, that explains why you thought that the barricade had this psychological purpose of intimidating Croat citizens. In your answer you said that you thought it also had the purpose -- you said it had the purpose of intimidating citizens of both ethnicities. Can you explain in what way you thought it had the purpose of intimidating Serb civilians?
A. In what way could it have intimidated Serbs, too? You could never know whether the person manning the barricade was sober or drunk, and it -- and the person carried weapons. You never knew what his reaction was going to be. The situation was no less horrific for the Serbs than it was for Croats, although on the face of it it was directed at the citizens of the other ethnicity.
Q. When you say it was directed at -- on the face of it it was directed at citizens of the other ethnicity, do you mean on the face of it it was directed against Croats?
A. That is my opinion. I have to tell you something. In 1991 in the area of Knin, 88 per cent of the population were Serbs, 11 per cent were Croats, and 1 per cent were others.
MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I'm going to have to ask that we go briefly into private session.
JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
(Private session)
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(Open session)
THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we are in open session.
JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Mr. Whiting.
MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
Q. Witness, I want to change topics now and ask you about the media at the time of the log revolution and after the log revolution, so in 1990 going into 1991. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what kind of media there was in Knin and in the Krajina, and can you comment on what kinds of things were being reported in these different medias?
A. Yes. In 1990, pursuant to a decision by the Municipal Assembly of Knin and its council, the Serbian Radio Knin was set up and the Serbian TV, later on to be called the television of the Republic of Serbian 4422 Krajina. In 1990 and through to mid-1991, all the mass media, particularly the press, arrived regularly in Knin; that's to say, the media published in Belgrade, Zagreb, or Split.
Q. Can we focus first on the media that I'll call the Serb media, that is the media that was from the -- from within the Krajina, either the Serbian Radio of Knin or the Serbian television, or the media from Belgrade. Can you tell the Trial Chamber how the -- this media reported on the log revolution and on events that were occurring in the Krajina?
A. The media - and I'm predominantly referring here to the papers, the press, but I will say something about the Serb TV later on - was dominated by the Belgrade newspaper Express Politika, which took a positive view of the log revolution and of the possibility for the Republic of Serbian Krajina to become independent. In its reports, it encouraged citizens to believe what the paper was reporting on.
Q. Witness -- witness, did this media talk about the Croatian government or the Croatian people, and if it did, what did it say about them?
A. The media reported on the Croatian government and the Croatian people in the following way: That this was the government of the Ustasha, that the Croats were Ustashas themselves, and that keeping in mind the year 1940 and 1941, they ought not to be trusted and that a similar scenario could be expected to take place at the time, too. They called on the citizens of Serb ethnicity to respond to mobilisation call-ups in order to defend Serb territories.
Q. And, Witness, when you said that the media said that a similar 4423 scenario could be expected to take place at the time, what -- what specifically were they talking about?
A. On the 30th of May, the HDZ came to power in Croatia, that is to say the Croatian Democratic Union, which took a decision in the parliament of Croatia to dissociate itself from the community of Yugoslav republics. After that, the Serbs in Croatia no longer -- were no longer a constituent nation. Therefore, after the 30th of May, the Serbs were no longer one of the constituent peoples.
There was an incident in the parliament of Croatia when the son of Janko Bobetko threw [realtime transcript read in error "through"] his brief-case at [realtime transcript read in error "and"] Radislav Taniga, who was one of the deputies of Serb ethnicity. And there was another incident at Benkovac where Miroslav Mlinar was wounded.
Q. When you talked about the 30th of May, that was what year?
A. That was in 1991.
Q. Did the Serb media talk about or suggest that the Serbs in Croatia in the Krajina were endangered by the Croatian government or by Croats?
A. Yes, that was rather common. It was reported that the Serb people in Croatia were threatened by the newly appointed Croatian government.
JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just get something on the record here clear. On this page 38 at line 14, does the word "through" there mean through, or threw, t-h-r-e-w? And his brief-case, is it now followed by at or and?
MR. WHITING: I can try to clarify that with the witness, Your Honour.
JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you. 4424
MR. WHITING:
Q. Witness, you described an incident in the parliament of Croatia involving the son of Janko Bobetko and Radislav Taniga. Could you just repeat it -- what it is you said about that, what happened? What did Janko Bobetko -- or rather, the son of Janko Bobetko do?
A. First let me say that Radislav Taniga was speaking and he was speaking about the position of the Serb people in Croatia. Janko Bobetko's son was very displeased with that speech and he threw his brief-case at Radislav Taniga, who was speaking.
Q. Thank you, Witness. I think that clarifies it. Now, you said that it was rather common and that it was reported that the Serb people in Croatia were threatened by the newly appointed Croatian government. Did you think, from what you could observe at the time, that the Serb people in the Krajina were threatened by the Croatian government or endangered?
A. In my view, based on my work, at that time there was no threat for the Serb people by the Croatian government, and there were no signs that what happened in 1941 would be repeated. I can confirm that by saying that Jovan Raskovic, the president of the SDS, started negotiating with the Croatian leadership, with the top leaders of the Croatian government.
Q. From what you could observe, did you think that the Croatian government was seeking armed conflict with the Serb population?
A. One could not conclude that from the words or actions by either the Croatian government or the Croatian president.
Q. Did you think at this time in 1990 and 1991 that armed conflict 4425 was necessary to resolve the disputes between the Serbs and the Croats in Croatia?
A. I think that the conflict could have been avoided, that there was no need for the conflict. Dr. Milan Babic, the president of the Municipal Assembly of Knin, started talking to a representative of the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Croatia who hailed from Sinj. His name was Jerko Vukas.
Q. Did the media, from what you could observe, have any effect on Milan Martic's position in the Krajina?
A. The media did have an influence on the position of Milan Martic in Krajina, all the media or nearly all the media from Serbia, save for the Croatian media, spoke positively about Milan Martic and they hailed his role in his request to protect the five-pointed star in his request to protect the police and the Serb population in the area. He was welcomed in his efforts.
Q. Did Milan Martic talk in the media about the Serbs in the Krajina being endangered by the Croatian government or by the Croats?
A. Yes. Milan would often speak for the media. He would give interviews, both for the Serbian media as well as for the Croatian media. One of his last interviews that he gave to Nedina Dalmacija [phoen] which is a paper of Slobodna Dalmacija from Split, and the journalist was Senel Selimovic confirms from what I've just said so far.
Q. By the way, how did the -- you've made some references to the Croatian media. How did the Croatian media compare to the Serbian media in terms of what was being reported? 4426
A. The Croatian media were much more tolerant. They encouraged people to live together. They encouraged people to negotiate and to talk. The only exception to that was the SD which is a paper that I had never seen before that. The SD was rather extremist when it came to writing about the Serb people in Croatia. The SD was published in Zagreb.
Q. I want to move on to another topic now. In 1991, did you learn anything about a special-purpose unit of SAO Krajina MUP in Knin?
A. Yes, I was aware of that unit, which we referred to as the special unit of SAO Krajina. It was billeted in the St. Ante's monastery in the lower part of the town of Knin or the southern part of the town of Knin.
Q. Do you know who the commander of the unit was?
A. Dragan Karna was the commander of that unit.
Q. Without giving any names, did you know at that time any -- anybody who was a member -- did you know personally anybody who was a member of that unit or anybody's family who was a member of that unit?
A. I knew its members and their families.
Q. Did you have occasion to speak to those members and their families about the unit and about what it did?
A. Yes. I spoke to them personally and to their families.
Q. Witness, could you tell the Trial Chamber, if you know, what the duty or function of this special-purpose unit was, in particular whether it had a duty or function in combat or fighting.
A. According to my information, that unit had a primary task to protect the government of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, its president, and Milan Martic personally. In other words, their primary task was 4427 protection; its second task was to intervene in threatened areas. In other words, it was prepared to intervene whenever the regular forces were scarce, and that is the regular forces of the JNA first and then the Army of Republic of Serbian Krajina.
Q. When it intervened in threatened areas, did it have a particular function, to your knowledge?
A. I'm most familiar with the situation when the units -- when unit was sent to break through the corridor. Other activities were either individual or group activities. The unit never intervened as a whole.
Q. The reference that you made to the corridor, is that to the Posavina corridor operation in 1992?
A. Yes, that was the Posavina corridor. Modrica, Derventa, and other places belonging to that area.
Q. On other occasions when you said the -- the group operated either individually -- as individuals or group activities, do you know what their -- what duties they had with respect to fighting or combat? What was their function or duty individually or as a group?
A. When they acted as individuals, the scenarios differed. They would either blow up railways or they would enter in clashes with the police force of the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Croatia. Another duty was to intimidate people by blowing up kiosks or booths belonging to the Croatian population of Knin.
Q. What was the purpose, if you know, of blowing up railways or entering into clashes with the police force of the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Croatia? 4428
A. This was all covered by the media, and it was construed as the Ustasha trying to attack the town of Knin.
Q. And in particular, what was the purpose of this -- of entering into clashes with the police force of the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Croatia, because I think your last answer may have just been to the first part of the question. But what about the second part: Entering into clashes with the police force. What was the purpose of that, if you know?
A. The purpose was to show that this was an integral territory governed by the Republic of Serbian Krajina and that no other could enter the territory. Nobody who wasn't from the territory of the Republic of Serbian Krajina, that is.
Q. You've told us before that you were present at Kijevo when it was attacked in August of 1991. Did you encounter any SAO Krajina police there, in Kijevo?
MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour.
JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Milovancevic.
MR. MILOVANCEVIC: [Interpretation] My objection is that the witness said that he wasn't in Kijevo, that he was somewhere else, either at the observation point or a reconnaissance point, but that he wasn't in Kijevo. And now the Prosecutor puts it to the witness: You said it, that you were present at Kijevo.
JUDGE MOLOTO: Mr. Whiting.
MR. WHITING: Your Honour, my recollection is otherwise, but I'll -- if I could just have a moment. 4429
JUDGE MOLOTO: This is yesterday's testimony?
MR. WHITING: That's correct, Your Honour.
JUDGE MOLOTO: I also have a recollection about that, but I will reserve it.
MR. WHITING: The transcript will tell us. Your Honour, if we could just go into private session because it starts to get kind of specific.
JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
(Private session)
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(Open session)
THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we are in open session.
JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Mr. Whiting.
MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
Q. Witness, now -- please just don't specify which unit you were a part of or why -- what brought you to Kijevo, but I'm not sure you answered my last question which was when -- and if you don't -- if you don't know, just say you don't know. But if you -- when units were sent to mop up an area, were -- what were they to do about civilians in the area, if anything?
A. I understood your question, but I did not complete my answer. I would say that our task was - that is, the task of the company that I was with - to protect the civilian population. And, if at all possible, we were to offer them to leave the scene; and if not, we were to ask them to 4434 stay in their houses, not leave their houses until the complete war operation was over and until the moment the mop-up was completed as well.
Q. Now, I'll go back to my earlier question. When you were in Kijevo - and now we've established that that was actually on the 27th of August of 1991 - did you encounter SAO Krajina police there?
A. As we were descending from the Radici huts and as we reached the Knin-Split road, we also came across the road leading from Kijevo to Unista, which is a place in Bosnia and Herzegovina. I met several persons or, rather, police officers of the SAO Krajina. They asked me -- can I complete my answer?
Q. Yes, please, if you would.
A. One of the persons asked me why -- what we were waiting for, why didn't we start torching the place. And I told him that we never intended to do that. After that, I could see that there was a house in the centre of Kijevo and a couple of houses on the other end of Kijevo that started burning.
MR. WHITING: If I could just ask one or two more questions, Your Honour, just to finish this topic. I know, I'm sorry, but just -- we'll finish this topic.
Q. You said that this person said: Why didn't -- why don't we start torching the place? And you gestured actually with your hand in a pointing gesture. Just so the record is clear, what place was he referring to?
A. The place called Jurici, in the direction of Bajani, in the area of Kijevo. 4435
Q. Is that part of Kijevo or is that next to Kijevo?
A. Yes, it's a part of Kijevo.
Q. And just a last question on this topic. You said that after that you saw a house in the centre of Kijevo and a couple of houses on the other end of Kijevo that started burning. Were you able to tell whether those houses were set on fire on purpose or as a result of the combat, if you could tell?
A. There were no combat activities in Kijevo on the 27th. Therefore, I presume the houses were set on fire deliberately.
Q. Thank you, Witness.
MR. WHITING: Your Honour, I apologise for going over, and I think now it's a convenient time.
JUDGE MOLOTO: Not a problem. We'll take a short break, come back at half past 12.00. Court adjourned.
--- Recess taken at 12.03 p.m.
--- On resuming at 12.31 p.m.
JUDGE MOLOTO: Yes, Mr. Whiting.
MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
Q. Witness, we're in public session. I want to ask you some more questions about the special-purpose unit from Knin. Do you know where they did their training?
A. Not all of them but most of them were trained at Golubic, which was formerly a place where youth passed their vacation, and Gruska, near Benkovac. 4436
Q. Do you know who did the training at Golubic?
A. I don't know all of them, but I know that Captain Dragan was present also at Golubic, whereas he ran the camp at Gruska.
Q. Is that Gruska or Bruska?
A. B, as in Berlin.
Q. Thank you, Witness. Do you know what Milan Martic's relationship was to the training camp at Golubic?
A. Milan Martic set up the centre at Golubic.
MR. WHITING: Could we go into private session, please, Your Honour.
JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
(Private session)
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(Open session)
THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we are in private session.
JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Yes, Mr. Whiting. 4439
MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
Q. Witness, you've made a reference to the term "Marticevci." Could you tell us what that term referred to. And now I'm speaking about 1991.
A. Yes. Marticevci referred to all the people who successfully completed the training at Golubic. In the eye of the citizens, they were a higher level of specialists, an elite, as it were, compared to the other staff that we had in the police ranks.
Q. Were the other staff that you had in the police ranks ever referred to as Marticevci, or was it only, to your knowledge, those who were trained at Golubic?
A. Upon completing the training at Golubic, all those who were employed in the police station were called Martic's men, Marticevci. This might not have been the case right at the start, in 1991 and 1992, but later on all of them were referred to as Marticevci.
Q. But just to be clear, in 1991 did -- do you know if that included the regular police?
A. No, not the regular police.
Q. And why were the -- the police that were trained at Golubic referred to as Marticevci? Why did they have that name?
A. It was thought that these men were more capable, trained, and even more loyal to the system.
Q. But specifically why that name, "Marticevci"? What was the reason for that name?
A. Well, if Martic set up the whole thing and was the secretary, this is self-explanatory. It shows that it was after him that it -- they were 4440 named.
Q. Now, from what you could observe and from your various sources of information, could you tell us what the reputation of the Marticevci was in 1991?
A. At the start of training, when the camp was opened, the people reacted positively and with delight because they thought that this was going to produce capable, young personnel that were going to be able to deal with the war. As the time went by and as the war developed, they were gaining their popularity, and so it went until the end of the war.
Q. So did they have a good reputation?
A. Well, they had a good reputation at the start, but in the end their reputation was bad.
Q. And when you say it was bad, can you be more specific. Why was it bad?
A. I can, because I suppose I shall be mentioning some names and events later on because some of them did not behave honourably toward their fellow citizens, their property, and toward their people.
Q. I will be asking you some more specific questions later, but I will come back to this to make sure that I have addressed all the examples that you're thinking of now. But for now I'm going to move on to another topic.
Was there -- to your knowledge, in 1991 was there a prison in Knin?
A. Yes, there was a prison in Knin. I know of it. I heard of it.
Q. To your knowledge, where was it located? 4441
A. The civilian prison, we're talking about the civilian prison -- I don't know about the military. The civilian prison was located in the old Knin hospital.
Q. I want to ask you about the Territorial Defence. In 1991, do you know who was in command of the Territorial Defence in Knin?
A. In 1991, the commander of the staff of the Territorial Defence was Mr. Milan Dragisic.
Q. Do you know what his relationship was to Milan Martic?
A. As far as I know, their relationship was a correct one --
THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last part of his answer.
MR. WHITING:
Q. Witness, the interpreter couldn't hear the last part of your answer. Could you just repeat that answer?
A. Milan Dragisic married Milan's sister.
Q. And when you say he -- Milan Dragisic married Milan's sister, you're speaking about Milan Martic's sister?
A. Yes, Milan Martic's sister, Neda.
Q. I want to go back now to the attack on Kijevo on --
JUDGE MOLOTO: Can I just -- before you go to that point. Following up the question on relationship between Milan Dragisic and Milan Martic, in terms of their work position, was there any relationship?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There had to have been one, as was the case in the former system. The commander of the TO staff, the 4442 secretary for the police and the secretary of the Secretariat for National Defence had to have daily or frequent contacts in order to be fully informed of the situation on the ground.
JUDGE MOLOTO: Now, was that the legal relationship, that the one was the commander of the TO staff and the other was the secretary of the Secretariat of the National Defence, and that they were in the same -- were these people -- were these posts -- are these posts in the same department, if I may ask that way?
THE WITNESS: This wasn't the same department, but the area of their activity was similar. The Territorial Defence dealt with the territory and the people defending the territory, whereas the national defence was in charge of carrying out mobilisation and selecting personnel.
JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Mr. Whiting.
MR. WHITING:
Q. And just to follow up on that question. In your first answer you said -- you included the command of TO staff, the secretary of the police, and the secretary of the Secretariat for National Defence. Did these -- from what you could observe during 1991, did these entities work together along with the JNA during the conflict in the Krajina, before the conflict began and when the conflict began?
A. All the three institutions were separate, but they formed a whole in terms of security. And by virtue of their function, they had to have daily contacts with the command of the Yugoslav People's Army. 4443
Q. Thank you. Now I want to move back to ask some more questions about the attack on Kijevo on the 26th of August, 1991. From what you could observe and learn from your role, which we've talked about in private session and we won't repeat now in public session, were you able to determine what the objective of that attack was on Kijevo?
A. In my view, the objective of that attack was to liberate the area and to provide for the further advances and activities of the JNA. Since Kijevo is between Polaca and Civljani and it was inhabited by Croats only, there are 100 per cent Croats living in that village, and between Civljani and Polaca which were inhabited by the Serbs, this area should be opened to provide for an unhindered advance towards Velika and Sinj.
Q. To your knowledge, did the Croats who were living in Kijevo pose a threat to the Serbs?
A. No. I stress once again, the Croat citizens in the territory of Knin, that Kijevo was also part of, could not present or pose any threat to either the Serb population or the town of Knin. And I underline once again, in 1991 88 per cent of the population were Serbs, 11 per cent of the population were Croats.
Q. Do you know if there were any Croatian forces, military or police, located in Kijevo that posed a threat to the Serbs in August of 1991?
A. I knew and I saw the forces of the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Croatia billeted in the culture hall in Kijevo. They controlled the area, the area covering the whole territory of Kijevo, and practically they never left the premises that they were billeted at. 4444
Q. From what you learned and could observe, did those forces of the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic of Croatia who were billeted in the culture hall in Kijevo, did they pose any threat to Serb -- Serbs or Serb forces in the area?
A. Again, I was involved in certain duties in my unit, and we did not perceive them as posing threat to the general population in the territory of Knin.
Q. Witness, during the attack on Kijevo, was the church in Kijevo damaged?
A. Unfortunately, it was. The church was damaged. This was the St. Michael's church which was located on a hill from where there was a good view and it could be seen from afar. The church was damaged on the 26th of August, on the day of the conflict, and the intention was to show -- because prior to that most of the population had left and the intention was to show those who were -- who stayed there that there was nothing for them to look forward to. Your village has been torched, your church has been damaged, so it's best for you to leave that place.
Q. Witness, during that attack on Kijevo, was the village of Vrljika also attacked?
A. Yes. The forces of the JNA set off towards Vrljika.
Q. And what happened at Vrljika?
A. Vrljika was taken by the JNA in less time than it took them to take Kijevo.
Q. What happened after the JNA took Vrljika?
A. Once Vrljika was taken, they moved on in the direction of Sinj. 4445
Q. And what happened after that in Vrljika?
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Q. Was somebody appointed to be chief of police in Vrljika?
A. The police station in Vrljika was set up once Vrljika was taken and it was Djuro Togajic who was appointed its commander; he was an active police officer from Knin. And the police station of Vrljika reported directly to the police station in Knin.
Q. To your knowledge, was Djuro Togajic a subordinate to Milan Martic when he became chief of police of Vrljika?
A. Yes, he was subordinated to him.
Q. And did any looting occur in Vrljika?
A. Yes. Unfortunately, the command of the JNA issued a ban on looting and placed the military police at all points to control the troops. However, this did not apply to the civilian police. There was looting, therefor, and almost everybody took part in the looting, save for the troops of the JNA.
Q. Did the police take part in the looting?
A. I did not see anybody directly, but indirectly I would say yes. When I say "indirectly," I would say that whenever they controlled traffic they let go all the lorries that carried goods looted from the area and they went on and they proceeded towards Knin with that -- those looted goods. 4446
Q. Did you see that?
A. I did. The company that I belonged to was billeted in Kosorska Greda.
Q. And when that looting occurred in the areas that were controlled by the police or where the police controlled the traffic, was that after Djuro Togajic had been appointed to be the chief of police of Vrljika?
A. Yes, after that.
Q. Witness, I want to ask you about a different topic now, about Drnis. Was there an attack on Drnis in September of 1991?
A. Yes. The attack on Drnis was in the afternoon hours of the 16th of September, 1991.
Q. And just for the benefit of the Trial Chamber, Vrljika is located on the atlas, Exhibit 23, on page 31, in grid C2, just south of Kijevo and Civljani, and Drnis is also located within that same grid. It can be found near -- just directly south of Knin to the left of the crease. So it's actually on page 30, but in that same grid, C2.
MR. WHITING: Could we go into private session briefly, Your Honour?
JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please go into private session. And maybe before -- yeah.
(Private session)
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(Open session)
THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.
JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Yes, Mr. Whiting.
MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
Q. Witness, when you were in Drnis on the 17th of September and thereafter, what did you observe happen there?
A. First of all, I found the centre of town to be completely destroyed; secondly, some of the Croatian citizens who stayed behind were very concerned; and thirdly, I came across incredible large-scale looting.
Q. Who was engaged in the looting, as far as you could see?
A. As far as I was able to see, everyone did. The army, the police, and citizens. The army was particularly focussed on a winery there where a large amount of barrels of wine was left behind.
Q. Witness, you said that the -- some of the Croatian citizens who stayed behind were very concerned. Why were they very concerned?
A. First of all, after the shelling of the town, the bombing, and after the torching of the centre of town, which is -- which was a small town, really, they were concerned about their future, what was to come the following day. Secondly, they were wondering what to do about the looting. They were powerless in the face of looters. They feared for 4451 their lives. They felt insecure.
Q. What was -- what was -- do you know what the population of Drnis was in terms of ethnicity?
A. 75 per cent were Croats; 25 per cent were Serbs.
Q. What was the effect of the attack on Drnis in terms of the town or village itself? What happened to the village physically? You said that the centre of town was destroyed. Did that -- did it affect other parts of the town?
A. Yes, it affected other parts of the town as well. What was the purpose of this exercise in Drnis? Well, I have to tell you that the Drnis-Sibenik road passes by two villages where the majority population was Serbs. One of them is Zitnic, where the ratio was 65 to 35, the majority being Serbs; and the village of Konjovrate [phoen], where the ratio was 70 to 30; 70 per cent were Serbs, 30 per cent were Croats. The strategy was probably that of protecting these villages which were on the front line. There is a second version, though, according to which the Yugoslav People's Army set off toward Sibenik with the intention of joining up, linking up, with the other units which were headed toward Sibenik from the area of Benkovac, that's to say from the western side.
Q. Witness, to your knowledge in September of 1991, did -- did Drnis pose any threat to Serbs or to Serb forces?
A. I have the same opinion as I had then, and I will probably have the same opinion throughout my life. Drnis did not pose any danger to the Serb residents of the town of Knin at the time.
Q. Do you know who the police commander was at that time in Drnis? 4452
A. I know that they changed quite often. I know of two of them who held the position. One was at the start. His name was Obrad Bujanic, also known as Sveto, who held the position for a very brief period of time. The other one was Drago Rajic. In view of the fact that I left the area, I was unable to follow the situation to know who held the position.
Q. Do you know who had the position in the days after the attack on Drnis on September 16th, 1991?
A. I don't understand. Could you please clarify your question.
Q. I'm sorry, and -- was -- do you know if -- in the -- on the 16th of September, the 17th of September, the 18th of September, was it Obrad Bujanic who was the chief of police, Drago Rajic, or somebody else?
A. At the time, there was no police station at Drnis. It was only some 10 to 15 days later that it was set up.
Q. And when it was set up 10 to 15 days later, was it -- was that when it was first Obrad Bujanic for a short time and then Drago Rajic?
A. Yes, as far as I remember.
Q. Were they, to your knowledge, subordinated to Milan Martic?
A. Yes. They, too, were subordinated to Milan Martic.
Q. Did something happen in Potkonje in 1991?
A. Yes. The municipal secretariat of the interior of Knin carried out an incursion into the village of Potkonje.
Q. When was that?
A. That was in 1991. At any rate, it was before the month of June, sometime during that period.
Q. Can you tell us where Potkonje is located in relation to Knin? 4453
A. In relation to Knin, Potkonje is to the south.
Q. How far to the south?
A. About two and a half kilometres.
MR. WHITING: Your Honours, I don't think this appears on the atlas.
Q. You told us that the municipal secretariat of the interior of Knin carried out an incursion into the village of Potkonje. Can you tell us specifically what happened, to your knowledge?
A. To my knowledge, based on the stories I heard from people, in view of the fact that there were several mixed marriages - I don't like using that term, but it's more understandable that way - it happened that the municipal secretariat of the interior was informed of the village of Potkonje having been arming itself. That was when an action was carried out, an action searching for weapons. There was stories about a radio station being active in Potkonje where Croat citizens or Croat villagers were informing someone about the events at Knin.
Q. And so what did the police do in Potkonje?
A. The police searched the area. The search was probably accompanied by some other things. I cannot really tell you what, but from conversations with some people -- I don't know if at this stage ...
Q. Just leave it at that and we'll go into private session, and I'll ask you who specifically with -- which people, but if you could just continue -- what you heard about what happened in Potkonje.
A. We heard from one participant, a police officer, who told me at the end of the town that they had wreaked havoc down there. And I asked: 4454 Down where? And he told me: We were down at Potkonje. We searched the area. He didn't tell me whether they found any weapons, and he didn't tell me whether they found a radio set.
Q. Did -- from what you were able to learn, did this event in Potkonje have any effect on civilians, Croat civilians, living in that village?
A. To my knowledge, nobody was killed. Whether someone was beaten up, I cannot say, I don't know, but the psychological effects were devastating.
Q. Can you explain that. Why do you say that? What do you mean when you say "the psychological effects were devastating"?
A. First of all, this was a rather small village; secondly, I said that there were several mixed marriages there where Croats and Serbs married each other; thirdly, the village was adjacent to the village of Vrbnik, which was inhabited 100 per cent by Serbs. If the official authorities searched the village for weapons, the question was now: What would -- what would everyone else do now if they thought that we had weapons? What would happen to us next.
Q. So did the Croat civilians who were living in Potkonje do anything after this event? Did they stay in Potkonje or did they leave?
A. No, they didn't stay there; they left.
Q. And from what you could observe and from what you heard, was that one of the purposes of the incursion into Potkonje or was that just an unintended effect?
A. Probably the party organising this excursion into Potkonje gave 4455 careful thought to what sort of effect that would have.
MR. WHITING: Could we go into private session, please?
JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
(Private session)
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(Open session)
THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we are now in open session.
JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. 4456 Mr. Whiting.
MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
Q. Witness, how were the events in Potkonje talked about in the media?
A. The Serbian radio of Knin said that some of the citizens were arming themselves and that this was learned by the municipal secretariat, that a search had been carried out, that there were no injured or wounded, and that the search had been staged in order to provide for the safety of the citizens of Knin.
The newspapers in Croatia, however, carried negative reports on the event. At the same time, the Yugoslav papers said that this was a good thing and that any illegal armament should be prevented. And that's why this whole thing was good.
Q. I'd like to move to another topic now. Did you hear of something that happened in Skabrnja and Nadin in November of 1991?
A. I didn't hear anything of Nadin or about Nadin. I did not have any information about that. Nadin was not commented publicly in the town of Knin.
As for Skabrnja, for a few days I didn't know what had happened there. It was only then when all sorts of information started leaking to the effect that there had been a massacre of civilians. It was not publicly known. However, a mother who had lost her son asked me if I was aware of his destiny, whether he was among those people. I said I didn't know because my position was to the opposite side of where this event had taken place. The only thing I know is what I learned from the media and 4457 from the mother who came to me.
And I know something else, also. A man whose family name was Crnogorac and whose first name I didn't know came to my unit and told me that he had participated in the attack on Skabrnja, but he could not hold the pressure. And he also told me that Captain Dragan was paying them 20 German marks for a day of fighting. According to him, he was there, but he had not participated in the massacre and he did not have any say in that massacre. And this is the long and the short of what I know of this massacre in Skabrnja.
Q. Just to be clear, you said that -- you said in your answer: As for Skabrnja, for a few days I didn't know what had happened there. It was only then when all sorts of information started leaking to the effect that there had been a massacre of civilians. So just to be clear, did you hear those stories of a massacre of civilians a few days after the attack on Skabrnja?
A. Yes, a few days after the attack on Skabrnja we heard about this massacre of civilians. For a few days, the first day, the second day, and the third day following the attack, I didn't know what had happened there.
Q. You also stated that you heard that Captain Dragan was paying people 20 German marks for a day of fighting at Skabrnja. On this subject, did you make a correction to your ICTY statement on this topic? Did you say something different in your ICTY statement that you've now corrected?
A. It is possible that in my statement I stated that the person involved was Arkan; however, I never saw Arkan there at the time. But I 4458 did hear from other people that Captain Dragan was there, and I also heard from that guy who had returned from the scene that it was Dragan -- Captain Dragan who was involved. So it wasn't Arkan but Captain Dragan, if that is what you had in mind when you put your question to me.
Q. That was precisely what I had in mind. Thank you. Could you tell us how the media -- how the Serb media talked about the attack on Skabrnja?
A. The reactions were not hysterical, so to speak, and there was a bit of justifying the whole thing by saying that this was a military operation, that the targets could not be selected. There was not much celebration is what I meant when I said the reaction was not hysterical, but still justifications were being sought for what had happened.
MR. WHITING: Your Honour, could we go into private session briefly, please?
JUDGE MOLOTO: May the Chamber please move into private session.
(Private session)
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(Open session)
THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we are now in open session.
JUDGE MOLOTO: Thank you very much. Yes, Mr. Whiting.
MR. WHITING: Thank you, Your Honour.
Q. Witness, I want to move to something that occurred in 1992. In that year, did something happen at the Dom Kulture or cultural centre in Knin?
A. It was in 1992 but not in Knin but in Vrpolje, which is a place close to Knin, if you're talking about Dom Kulture, if that is what you're referring to.
Q. Yes, that was my mistake, I apologise. Thank you for catching that.
Can you describe for us -- you say that Vrpolje is a place close to Knin. Can you describe to us where it is in relation to Knin and how far away? 4461
A. Vrpolje is five kilometres north of Knin.
Q. And what happened at the Dom Kulture or cultural centre in Vrpolje in 1992?
A. Dom Kulture in Vrpolje was -- again, I'm not using these terms in my everyday vocabulary, I'm just using them for a better understanding. This was a collection centre for the citizens of Knin of Croatian ethnicity. In 1992, it became a point where Croatian citizens who, under various circumstances, wanted to leave the town of Knin and the Republic of Serbian Krajina to join their families. This is where they were accommodated. And it was so until the year 1993 when the last Croatian citizens left Knin, i.e., after Operation Maslenica, the last citizens of Croat ethnicity left Knin.
Q. Now, Witness, when you say that these Croatian citizens would go to this location when they were leaving Knin, when they wanted to leave the town of Knin in the Republic of the Serbian Krajina, from what you could observe, were they leaving because they wanted to go or because they were pressured to leave?
A. First of all, I have to tell you that there was a constant pressure on the Croatian citizens of Knin; this started in the year 1990 when their businesses were being blown up, when there was not a single night in Knin without an explosion. Some of these explosions did not have any consequences, and as a result of some of the others that things were destroyed. And one couldn't live like that.
There was another danger for the Croat citizens, and that happened whenever a Serb soldier got killed, there was always a danger of 4462 retaliation. In other words, there was a very high degree of insecurity. My last Croat citizen who left Knin, and I can tell you his name and family name, but maybe not now, maybe we should do it later. He cried before my wife's eyes, asking her to ask me to help him. I wasn't home at the time. Also I know that he asked an employee of Mr. Martic to allow him to stay rather than become a refugee. I offered this man to share my apartment, the apartment that was -- that had 60 square metres. I did not manage to persuade him to stay and eventually he left Knin.
Q. Do you know what Mr. Martic said when he -- when this man asked Mr. Martic to be able to stay rather than become a refugee?
A. I don't know what he told him, but I know that he was as sad as I was.
MR. WHITING: I think that would be a convenient time, Your Honour.
JUDGE MOLOTO: Court will adjourn. We reconvene tomorrow morning at 9.00.
Court adjourned.
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday, the 25th day of
May, 2006, at 9.00 a.m.