593Wednesday, 1st September, 1999
--- Upon commencing at 2.13 p.m.
JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Please be seated.
Mr. Registrar, have the accused brought in.
[The accused entered court]
JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Can the interpreters hear me? Very well. Can Defence counsel hear? Can Prosecution counsel hear?
The accused, Mr. Jelisic, would you please rise and tell us how you feel?
THE ACCUSED JELISIC: [Interpretation] My health condition has not really improved, but we decided not to disrupt the court proceedings, and out of respect for you, Your Honours, and the witnesses who suffered a lot in Brcko and have travelled all the way over here.
JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. If you have any problems at all -- please be seated. If you have any problems, do not hesitate to ask for the floor, and we'll find a solution. I was asked, and I agreed, that there be a nurse nearby, if necessary. I think that we can now resume our trial and perhaps ask the Prosecutor to bring in the next 594witness. I think this is a public hearing, at least that's what the registrar told me, that we would be in public hearing. Is that correct? Yes, that is. Mr. Nice, would you tell us who the next witness is? I believe he had already come in and already taken an oath. That is Witness G.
MR. NICE: Indeed it is, and because it's a protected witness, the screens must come down, but only briefly while he comes in.
I'm happy to tell Your Honour that the five witnesses whose summaries were provided yesterday are not the subject of any contest so far as the Defence is concerned. They are content for them to be called. They won't take very long, as you'll see from the summaries, and I'll make arrangements for their travel accordingly.
I'm further happy to tell Your Honour that Mr. Greaves has been extremely helpful this morning in agreeing that certain parts of the statement summary of Witness G may indeed be simply presented to him in a led form, and I'm grateful to him for that, and that will save some time.
JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We agree to that in order to save as much time as possible, thanks 595to you, but we are imposing nothing on the Defence. The Defence will conduct the cross-examination as it sees fit. I encourage the Defence to try to save as much time as possible, but I can only encourage him to do so. However, I am asking you, insofar as possible, Mr. Prosecutor, if you consider it desirable, to use your summaries which were given to the Judges.
[Trial Chamber confers]
JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice, we have a question that we're concerned with. We would like to ask it before the witness comes in. As regards the summary of Witness G's
statement, are you going to ask for it as an admission as an exhibit or are you not?
MR. NICE: It had not originally been my intention to ask for them to be exhibited. They were, as I think I characterised them, a tool to help the Tribunal know what evidence could be given and so on. Yesterday, Your Honour decided that an
appropriate way forward would be for the witness to acknowledge the summary as effectively a document of his and to sign it and for it then to be produced. That could only be done if the witness, being literate, had read a version himself in a language he understands, alternatively has had read to him by an 596interpreter a version in a language he does not understand.
With this witness, I understand that he has this morning gone through the B/C/S version and is, indeed, in a position, if this is what the Court would find appropriate, is in a position to sign it, and it can then become an exhibit. With a later witness, who is either not literate or less literate, he would only be able to acknowledge a version as having been something he believes to have been read over to him by an interpreter. But on that basis, he could sign it as well.
So I'm quite happy to do that, but notwithstanding the witness's signing of it, I shall be taking him through some of the important parts that I understand to be in dispute with the Defence. But I shall, of course, be able to do things so much more quickly with the aid of this tool.
I hope that's acceptable.
JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Do you have any problems with that, Mr. Greaves?
MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, no, strictly speaking, a summary is not evidence. But if the witness acknowledges it, then of course that becomes part of the evidence. 597JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] All right. We can have Witness G brought into the courtroom now.
[The witness entered court]
JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Do you hear me, Witness G?
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well. Please be seated, Witness G. I believe you have already taken the oath. You can now be seated. Thank you for being patient.
THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I'm sure all of the problems that occurred yesterday have been explained to you which were the cause of the postponement of your testimony, but I think that now there are no further problems.
Mr. Prosecutor must have spoken to you about the summary of the various statements you made. It will be very important for you to indicate whether you recognise this or acknowledge this summary as being valid as expressing your statements, because if necessary, we're going to use it as an exhibit. But we will let the Prosecutor do his work.
Mr. Nice, please proceed.
WITNESS: G (Resumed) 598Examined by Mr. Nice:
[Witness answers through interpreter]
Q. Would you look at this piece of paper that's being shown --
THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to the counsel, please.
Q. My apologies. Will you look, please, at this piece of paper that's being shown to you, and say nothing except "Yes" or "No" in answer to the question. Is that your name?
MR. NICE: If the usher would be so good as to just show this document to the witness, please. Just hand it to the witness, please.
Q. Witness G, is this a document that was shown to you last night and that you were able to read?
Q. Is it accurate?
Q. Could you please just put your name -- you will be given a pen; perhaps you could just put your name at the end of it.
MR. NICE: Your Honour, the problem is it's Witness G for this Court. I think, if he produces the 599document and acknowledges its accuracy on our transcript, that makes the connection between the document, its accuracy, and the witness, and avoids any name having to be given which would then have to be withdrawn or withheld. Copies available for the Court in B/C/S.
JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Mr. Nice. You said exactly what I was going to say. The connection between the witness and his own acknowledgement of the document must be indicated, and once that's indicated in the transcript, I think that will be enough.
MR. NICE: The Court already has copies of this document in English and French, and I'll be grateful at some stage for the exhibit number.
THE REGISTRAR: This will be Prosecution Exhibit 15, 15A for the French version and 15B for the B/C/S version.
Q. Witness G, I'm going to ask you to deal with the following question simply by telling me if what I propose is correct. Resident in Brcko when the bridges were blown on the 30th of April of 1992, did your family stay with relations in Moaca while you stayed at your home in Kolobara, a Muslim area, where you helped 600to organise patrols to protect homes; over the next few days, was there an escalation in military activity with trucks carrying military personnel seen arriving in Brcko sporting artillery and could -- I beg your pardon -- with artillery and small-arms fire being heard coming from neighbouring hamlets? Is that correct?
Q. On the 4th of May, were you, with others, hiding in the basement of a neighbour's house when you were expelled by Serb military forces and marched to the town mosque; on departure from the area of your house, did you see that it, along with other houses, was on fire?
Q. Were you detained at the mosque for two days, while there, women and children were being separated from men of military age, and they were taken away in vehicles?
Q. While at the mosque, paragraph 5, was there a man called or known as Papa who you saw dealt with in a particular way? And it's not necessary -- you can look at the -- with the Court's leave, you can look at the summary, but I would be quite happy if you can deal 601with this from your own memory, unless you have any difficulty.
Was there a man known as Papa, and what happened to him? In just a sentence.
A. Yes, there was. He was taken out into the hallway. He was beaten, and later he was taken across over there to the hospital, and then he was led away. That's it.
Q. On the 6th of May, what happened to you?
A. On the 6th of May, we were transferred from the mosque, in trucks, to the barracks.
Q. When there, was there a person you got to know and recognise wearing a uniform?
A. While we were standing in front of the building where we were kept, I noticed a person in a blue uniform with a bandaged hand talking to a group of prisoners. I approached in order to hear what was being said, and then I heard this man say, "70 per cent of you should be killed, 30 per cent should be dealt with and beaten up," and then, out of those numbers, maybe about 3 per cent were all right. And then he said, "All of you are going to come to me," and cursed our balija mothers. I did not know this person at the time. Only when I arrived in Luka did I recognise him.
Q. When did you arrive in Luka? 602A. I arrived in Luka on the 8th of May, in the afternoon.
Q. When you arrived there, where did you first wait?
A. We waited by the first hangar, to the left of the hangar and facing it.
MR. NICE: Can the witness look at this document, please, which, although it's similar to an earlier exhibit, it may perhaps serve a useful purpose. It's a little clearer, I think, and will, I think, become Exhibit 16.
THE REGISTRAR: This is Prosecution Exhibit 16.
Q. Witness G, if you wish to point something out on the photograph, the usher will hand you a pointer. Stay in your seat, in order to preserve your facial anonymity, and use the pointer in your hand to indicate things.
MR. NICE: I think that you're straining the machine a little; we've lost our picture. Thank you very much.
There's a mistake there, I think, in the -- thank you. Something's seriously wrong. Can the video be turned off, please? 603I don't know what's gone wrong, Your Honour, if Your Honour is looking at the video.
THE REGISTRAR: There's a technical problem. The video booth has just told me there's a problem.
MR. NICE: Again, Your Honour, the wrong image entirely is coming up on the screen. Yes, can you press "Video Evidence"? I'm sure the Chamber has. You see the problem.
JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] For the public gallery, what's happening?
[Trial Chamber confers]
JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We're going to have the public taken out of the public gallery, unless the problem has been solved, because we saw the hangar on the video, we saw the photograph. Can that be checked?
MR. NICE: While the technical matter is being addressed, of course, I can take or the Tribunal can take appropriate steps in relation to the delayed video. That's not a problem.
As to the incorrect transmission of current images, it may be that the Chamber would -- would Your Honour just give me one minute? I'm so sorry.
JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] The registrar can assure you, Witness G, that your image was not 604projected into the public gallery. Perhaps we should have all of the face image distorted. Do you understand what I've just said? You can be assured that we're not going to have to take any other special measures in respect of what was on the monitor, because the public gallery didn't see it.
Perhaps we could then raise the blinds so this be a public session, but be sure that we do not show the witness's face.
After this problem, the witness may wonder whether he's not being pursued by bad luck.
THE REGISTRAR: There is a problem which is continuing. We cannot have the camera on Witness G. There's a problem with his face. We can continue to question the witness, but the camera will focus only on the ELMO.
JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Does everybody agree, my colleagues agree, agree that we proceed that way? Very well.
Mr. Nice, after having reassured our witness, we can now continue the hearing in public session, since his image is completely distorted. All right, Mr. Nice, please proceed.
Q. Looking at this exhibit and using the 605pointer, can you show us where it was you first waited on arrival at the Luka camp?
A. I do not know whether I shall be able to show you exactly where I stood on that occasion on this photograph, because I don't see the end of these hangars. We were standing to the left from the first hangar.
MR. NICE: May he see Exhibit 10 instead.
Q. Can you point on this photograph to where it was that you first stood and waited?
A. Yes [indicating].
Q. How many people, approximately, were waiting there at the time of your arrival?
A. There were seven of us in a group. Across from us, if I may put it that way, that is, on the other side of the entrance, there were about 30 people or so.
Q. While waiting there, did you see the man who had spoken to you at the barracks, the man in the blue uniform?
Q. Where was he when you first saw him? What was he doing?
A. When I saw him first, he was standing by that room into which detainees were being taken. So when I 606saw him first, he was entering that room. After that, he took out a detainee and quietly took him to the right or, rather, towards the corner of the building, further away from the door. He was followed by another individual in a uniform and armed too, and they turned the corner of the building.
From there, I heard shots, and after that, that individual in a blue uniform, and subsequently when he comes close to us, I will see him properly and learn that his name is Goran. Then he went back into the room that he had come out.
After that, he took out another witness and took him --
MR. NICE: Can the witness have Exhibit 16 back on the ELMO, the other photograph. Thank you. That is a closer view of the same.
Q. Can we see in this photograph, although the photograph was taken years later, can we see in this photograph the doorway to which and from which the man in the blue uniform went?
A. Yes, even though this office seems to be demolished by now, but this corner that I meant was here [indicating], it is this part, and the door is up there [indicating]. There, here, [indicating] the door leading into those offices. 607Q. So let us return to your account of the second person you saw leaving that office with the man you discovered was called Goran. What did the man Goran do?
A. He was taking this prisoner in front of him, and he also took him around the corner, behind the corner of the building.
Q. After they disappeared around the corner, what happened? What, if anything, did you hear?
A. Shots were heard from that direction, and after that, Goran returned alone to the same building that he had come out.
Q. Did you see a third detainee leave that office?
A. The third detainee was pushed out of that office. I believe his face was covered with blood. He turned to Goran, and he merely indicated to him the direction in which he should go in front of him, and they started towards the corner of the building. But even as the detainee reached that corner, Goran fired at the back of his head, and I saw the detainee fall. After that, Goran approached the group that I was with.
Q. When you say the man fell, did he fall, so far as you could judge, dead, or was he still alive, or 608what was the position?
A. He was dead. He was -- he partly fell down behind that corner, but we could still see his legs on this side.
Q. The man Goran approached your group. What, if anything, did he say or do?
A. When he approached our group, he told us to empty our pockets, all that we had there, our money, valuables, documents, and we put it all here at the corner of this hangar. There was an old car, unusable car, and we put it on the hood of that car. He collected all of this, and he said that this was all intended for the families of fallen Serb combatants. As he took it away, he told us sardonically that he could guarantee that we would not live to see the morning there. So he took these things away, and came back again, and took us into the hangar.
Q. In the hangar, did you see the man Goran again shortly thereafter or at any time thereafter?
A. I did see him shortly thereafter. He entered the hangar, was asking for three volunteers. He did not wait for them to apply. He pointed, "You, you, and you," and the person sitting next to me stood up and went out, that is, he took them out. They went out. After a while, that person came back. I 609could see that he was all shook up, that he was very emotional, so I asked him, "What happened?" He told me that he had to carry -- he said, "I carried a man and threw him onto a pile, and yet I can feel his heart beat." He was very shaken by that.
Q. That night, what happened so far as detainees in the hangar were concerned? Did they all stay there or did any of them leave? If so, what were the circumstances of their leaving?
A. During that night, the detainees were taken out in foursomes. I would be alerted every time they would come in, open the door and put the lights on, but then they took three men next to me out and they didn't come back.
I really had it very hard, and I remember one case when people were taken out, after which Goran returned very quickly, because on that particular occasion one of the detainees said, "In a year, the machine gun will fire again." Then he was back in no time at all and said, "Which one of you said that the machine gun would bark again within a year?" That man said, "I did," and so he went out too. I know he returned after about half an hour or so. We did not expect him to come back alive. But I noted that somebody sitting next to him asked him, "So how was 610it?" He turned to him and blew in his face or something like that, and he seemed to be reeking of alcohol.
So they were taking people out until late into the night. I can't really say because I lost my sense of time.
Q. When you say they took them out in foursomes, at what interval of time did they go out in foursomes? If you can put an interval on it.
A. Well, it was about half an hour. Something like that. I'm not really sure; about half an hour.
Q. Did any, some, or all of the foursomes come back? What happened?
A. I did not see them come back, but I must also confess that at that particular time, I wasn't paying much attention because I was really concerned about my own fate, and I was trying to tell myself to persuade myself that I would survive regardless of what was going on.
Q. Did you see anything else of the man, Goran, in the hangar that night?
A. I did. It was after midnight. He entered the hangar and said he would not kill any more if we knew how to sing a Serb song, "Who Says Who Lies," and if we could sing it three times without making a 611mistake. And after that, we all sang, and he was very happy, and he sort of conducted our singing. And after that, he called all of those would were outside to enter and see the balija singing.
Q. The following day, the 9th of May, you started the day in the hangar?
Q. Did you see something of a man called Stipo Glavocevic?
Q. Tell us very briefly what happened to him, and if you can, at what time of the day.
A. It was in the morning. Goran brought him to the hangar, and I know he was quite merry, so he put him in the middle of the hangar and told us, "Here's your Stipo walking around the town." And after that, he put on a serious mien and said, "Well, he has killed three Serbs; which one of you will kill him?" And he started offering his gun to each one of us, but none of the detainees would take it. And as he reached the end, here, on the right-hand side, I know that at that moment, Stipo asked us, "Come on, fellows, why doesn't one of you kill me?" And Goran heard it, so he came back to our side and started again offering the gun to us, but none of us would take it. 612And there was another guard in a uniform, I believe the reserve uniform, that is, the uniform of the reserve forces, and he said, "Let me kill him; I haven't killed an Ustasha since July."
And Goran told Stipo to get out immediately. And I know there was yet another guard who had a long sword or a sabre, and he hit Stipo on the back with the blunt side of that weapon, and they took him out and to the left, and they went in the other direction. And then I heard a shot and the passage of the refrigerating truck. But from the place where I was, I could not see that murder. However, from other inmates to the right and left of me, I heard that he had been killed.
Q. Just two supplementary questions. What ethnicity was Stipo? Did you know what he did before this conflict, and what condition was he in when he was brought in by Goran?
A. Stipo was a Croat by origin. I believe that his last job was with Bimeks; I do not know if he was retired. And what condition he was in, well, he arrived in a suit, but he was all bloody, and there was a puddle of blood under his feet where he had stood in the hangar.
Q. A man, a detainee called Jasce, can you tell 613us about that man?
A. Yes. As regards Jasce, I remember Goran entered the hangar and said, "Who's the one who cursed a Serb woman's mother? I'll take him out." And he was taken out, and I did not see him again. And I really do not have anything else to say about that.
Q. A woman called Naza Bukvic --
Q. -- what can you tell us about her? Time of day, again, if you can help.
Q. As regards Naza Bukvic, the time of the event is the 9th of May. It was then when I was issued a pass that I could leave the camp, and so I came out of this office which I mentioned before to which we went and where we were interrogated, and, at that moment, I could not get through because on my way I saw Goran beat Naza. She was sitting on the grass, and he had one baton in every hand, in every hand he had a baton, and I couldn't pass by because he was there, simply, he was on my way. And he looked towards me, he spread his arms, and he said, "Her brother is a sniper," and went on beating her. She was all covered in blood. Her clothes were torn. And he went on beating her, and I managed to pass by them.
And then, after that, I stopped for a while, 614and I was there for another five minutes or so hoping that through that person who had helped me get out, perhaps help also my uncle who had stayed behind in a hangar.
Q. Just point on the photograph, if you can, with the pointer, whereabouts it was that Goran was beating the woman.
A. I cannot show it in this photograph because it was a bit further down. I came out of this room and started down that way, and so it was further down there [indicating].
MR. NICE: If he could just briefly have the other photograph in front of him, please, photograph number 10, exhibit number 10.
Q. Does that show the place?
A. Here, in the grass [indicating].
Q. And you were --
A. Here, in this area, on the grass, here [indicating].
Q. Thank you. You've spoken of your interrogation; I needn't trouble you with that, either at all or barely at all. Were you interrogated once, or more than once?
A. Later? I'm sorry, I didn't understand you.
Q. Were you interrogated, yourself, once or more 615than once?
A. You mean there, in Luka?
Q. Yes, in Luka.
Q. Was it by Goran or by someone else?
A. Someone else.
Q. Thank you. You explained that you managed to get a pass to get out. In a sentence, who was it who enabled you to get out of this particular place?
A. I would prefer not to mention the name.
A. But he was wearing a uniform of the Serbian army.
Q. Was he somebody you had known from before?
Q. And as a result of that, paragraph 22, were you released from Luka; did you move elsewhere for some couple of months, until July; you thereafter went to the Batkovic detention centre and were exchanged in October 1992?
Q. The man, Goran, you saw him at the barracks and here at Luka; did you ever see him again?
A. I saw him on another two occasions, but I did not have any contact with him. The first time was in 616Batkovic. He was on the other side of the fence; some prisoners approached the fence. I did not want to do that. And the next time was when I was exchanged at Grbavica, because everybody in the bus was pointing at Goran, because they were afraid of him.
Q. Did you at any stage get to know a name other than Goran for this man?
A. In the camp, Goran was the only name I heard of. Later I learned that his last name was Jelisic.
Q. From whom did you learn that, or how did you learn that?
A. I believe it was from those who were there with me.
MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm not sure whether in light of the fact that paragraphs 19, 20, and 21 reflect counts in the indictment that have already been responded to in a particular way, I'm not sure whether identity will be an issue, but I propose to ask this next question of the witness --
Q. And Witness G, please just confine your answer to this question to just "Yes" or "No"; do you understand me? I'm going to ask you a question, and I want you just to say to it "Yes" or "No." Would you feel able, now, to identify the person, Goran, if you saw him again? And please, just 617answer that question "Yes" or "No."
MR. NICE: And I propose to ask the obvious question, in the absence of restraint.
Q. Can you see him here today?
Q. Point him out, please.
A. [Witness complies] I am certain that this is this creature whom I have called Goran Jelisic in my statement.
MR. NICE: The witness identified the defendant.
Q. Yes, thank you, Witness G. You will be asked further questions.
JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Let me thank you, Mr. Nice, for using the summary in a way that I think is completely consistent, which was the very purpose of our work, that is, to allow the oral and written facts to be expressed by the witness. And now we can have the cross-examination, but I would simply like to ask Mr. Greaves how much time he needs.
MR. GREAVES: I was going to ask my learned friend that he indicated that he was going to ask about the names on the list, and he may well have forgotten 618to do that.
MR. NICE: I'm very grateful to Mr. Greaves. I had omitted to deal with that. And if the witness could have, please, the two lists. First the -- which exhibit number is it?
First the longer list, which is -- I can't remember the number of the exhibit -- 12. It's 12. Yes, we can always use the same exhibit, Exhibit 12, please.
Q. You've been asked before to look at this list of names and to go through them to see if you can recognise any of the names, either as people you knew or people of whose fate you were aware, or, indeed, if there were any people that you had seen since your being held at Luka.
On page 1, and in the middle of the page, a little bit over halfway down, there's a name, Cembic. Was that a name that you knew of?
Q. What did you know of him?
A. I knew this person from before the war. He was at my house on the 1st of May, 1992, and then went with the meat that he had bought, went home, and later I heard that he had been labelled as a sniper and was killed. 619Q. Four names up from the bottom, Glavocevic, Stipo? Did you know him?
A. Yes, this is the person.
Q. [Previous translation continues]
A. I have already described his fate in my statement. It is Glavocevic, Stipo.
Q. Hadzic, Suad, second from the bottom.
A. I knew Suad Hadzic. I met him at the barracks. He had left on an earlier bus, I don't know where, but I did not see him after that.
Q. Second sheet, two thirds of the way down, Kartal, Kasim. Did you know that name?
A. I knew him even before the war. I did not see them during or after the war.
Q. Third sheet, a third of the way down, Muranjkovic, Galib. Known to you?
A. From before the war; I did not see him during or after the war. But as far as I know, when I was in Batkovic, his son was brought there, and that he had been taken off that vehicle on the way there.
Q. Fourth sheet, two thirds of the way down, Terzic, T-E-R-Z-I-C, Mohamed?
A. Yes. I knew Mohamed personally. I was friends with him, and I knew his brothers from sight. We were together in the mosque, and I saw them in Luka 620in a group of 30 who were released before the curfew, and I heard that they were killed at home.
Q. Have you seen any of the people on that list, to your knowledge, since the events that you have described?
A. No. You mean the ones we mentioned now? No.
MR. NICE: The next list, please. Would Your Honours just give me a minute.
Q. On sheet 1 --
MR. GREAVES: He's turned his microphone off, and I don't think he'll be heard by the interpreters.
Q. On sheet 1, the second name, is that the Papa that you've already spoken of?
Q. The same sheet, number 11, Irfan Topalcevic?
Q. Yes, Topalcevic with an "a". What was know to you of him?
Q. What happened to him, according to your understanding?
A. I knew him personally before the war. I did not see him during or after the war. I heard that he 621was killed at home at the very beginning.
Q. Number 15 at the bottom of the sheet, Muhamed Jakubovic, also known as Ulika?
A. Yes, I knew him. I know that he was killed in the period after I was released from Luka and when I was held in my neighbourhood. My information is that he was making equipment for -- harnesses for horses and that he was killed by one of the guys who worked there.
Q. The next sheet, number 16, Sakib Becirevic?
A. I knew him before the war. I did not see him during or after the war. I heard that he was killed behind the gymnasium and that Ranko Cesic was the one who killed him.
Q. Number 17, Dr. Edhemovic?
A. Yes. I only knew him before the war. I did not see him during or after.
Q. Did you hear of his fate?
A. I heard that he was killed, only that.
Q. 19, 20, and 21, the brothers Terzic, you've spoken of one already. What did you hear of these three?
A. They returned from Luka and went to Kolobara, where they lived. My information is that Kosta, the Chetnik, killed them, nothing else.
Q. 23, Sulejmanovic? 622A. Yes, I knew him before the war. I met him during the war when I was exchanged. I think it was on the 4th or 5th of October 1992. While I was in the bus, he was walking around in town, wearing a suit. I don't know his subsequent fate.
Q. So you saw him in October 1992, and you don't know what's happened about him since then. Number 36 on the next sheet, Osman Vatic?
A. Yes. I did not know him before the war, and I met him in Batkovic. I know that he was released home from Batkovic, and I also heard that he was killed as soon as he returned home.
JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We're going to take a short break. The afternoon is long. I suggest that we take a 15-minute break and start again at 3.30 or 3.35.
--- Recess taken at 3.18 p.m.
--- On resuming at 3.40 p.m.
JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We can now resume the hearing. Have the accused brought in, and please be seated.
[The accused entered court]
JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Before we resume and before I give the floor to Mr. Greaves, my colleagues and myself would like to speak to your 623interpreter, Mr. Londrovic and Mr. Greaves. Your interpreter, yes.
MR. GREAVES: I haven't introduced her, and I regret the discourtesy of not doing so.
JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Yes. We're going to ask her to stand, because we would -- please stand.
We, of course, agree that you be here. I wanted to know what -- I asked Mrs. de Sampayo what your status was, and that is all correct. But nonetheless, I simply wanted not to have you take an oath, that would take place at another place, but to call your attention to the confidentiality which must reign throughout these proceedings. We simply wish to say this to you in a more official, solemn manner. I should have done it as soon as we started working yesterday, but I wanted to take advantage of this time in order to make you fully mindful of those responsibilities. All right?
MS. ZIVKOVIC: Yes.
THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the interpreter.
JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I more or less understood. You may be seated. I understood what you said, and I thank you very much. 624All right, Mr. Greaves, the floor is yours. You are going to conduct the cross-examination?
MR. GREAVES: Yes. Could I just say about my interpreter, she's been working for me and for other counsel for over two years. She worked with us in the Celebici trial. She has also, for a period, worked on behalf of the Office of the Prosecutor. She has the confidence of everybody that I've ever met that she is entirely aware of all the requirements of confidentiality. I hope that's also a further assurance to Your Honour. She's further aware of what is required of her.
JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] That's fine. You yourself, I assume, are mindful of your own obligations. Can you tell us how long your cross-examination is going to last? I'm sure that you've got a mind which has been synthesised just as brilliantly as your adversary or your opponent on the other side of the bench.
MR. GREAVES: Your Honour is too kind. Your Honour, I hope to be about an hour and a half. Can I give you the usual caveat that all lawyers, I'm afraid, give, which is that sometimes things develop, which means you go on longer, or sometimes my estimations are totally wrong and one runs over a bit. But I'm aiming 625at about an hour and a half.
JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] So that you understand fully the totality of these proceedings, let me remind you that the examination in chief, thanks to the new method which the Prosecutor is using, and even if you don't completely agree with that method, the examination in chief lasted for 45 minutes. I've noted what you have just said, but I ask that you not repeat yourself. Please do not have the witness repeat things that he may have already said. All right. Let's begin, please.
Cross-examined by Mr. Greaves:
[Witness answers through interpreter]
Q. Witness G, I'm going to ask you some questions now, please. Could you remember, please, this, that whilst I ask you the questions, if there is a question which you do not understand, please do not be shy. Stop me, if you do not understand it, and ask me immediately that I repeat it or rephrase it. Is that acceptable to you?
Q. Mr. G, I would like to ask you this, please, to start off with: When you made a statement to the Office of the Prosecutor, you described yourself as, at that time, being a soldier in the BiH army. Is that an 626occupation or an engagement that you continue to have? Are you still in the BiH army or have you left it?
Q. You've left?
A. No, no, no, I'm with it.
Q. You're still in the BiH army?
Q. Thank you. Can I ask you this? I don't want to ask the details, for you to identify any particular unit or regiment, but are you connected in any way with military intelligence, in your occupation as a BiH soldier, or the intelligence services in any way?
Q. Thank you. I don't want to know any more than that.
Mr. G, prior to the outbreak of conflict in Brcko, were you in any way active in political life in the town?
Q. During the conflict, did you take part in politics? Did you become a party member of any kind?
Q. Have you become a member of, for example, the SDA since the conflict?
A. No. I am not a member of any political 627party.
Q. Very well. I suspect that you've been staying in The Hague for a couple of days, at the very least, and you've been through the statements which you made firstly to the BiH authorities, the Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities, and to the OTP, and so you're familiar with those two documents?
A. I am.
Q. Apart from those two statements, Mr. G, have you made a statement of any kind to any other authority concerning these matters?
Q. I want to turn now, please, to the period immediately before the commencement of conflict in Brcko.
I think at the end of April 1992, and I don't want to ask the details of this, but you were concerned about your family -- someone in your family's medical condition, as a result of which you had to go out and be in the town?
Q. As a result of that, you found yourself in the area of, presumably, the central area --
A. I don't understand you.
Q. I'm sorry. As a result of having to go out, 628you found yourself in the centre of Brcko?
A. I did not leave. It was my family which left. I'm afraid I didn't understand your previous question. I was at home throughout, and that is where I was captured.
Q. I understand that. I'm asking about the last part of April 1992, before your family left, and in particular about the 30th of April. Did you go into the town that day?
A. I did.
Q. It was during that trip that you heard the explosions or explosions were heard; is that right?
A. No. I heard an explosion, and after the explosion is when I went into town.
Q. Right. Then were you aware of checkpoints having been set up in the town?
A. Yes, on the outskirts of the town. I knew there were checkpoints set up around the town, but at that moment there were no checkpoints within the town limits.
Q. The checkpoints on the town periphery, were those checkpoints only of one group of people, or were some of them Serbian checkpoints, some of them Muslim checkpoints; can you help us about that?
A. The checkpoints that I know about were manned 629by Serbs.
Q. Now, after hearing the explosions and going into town, you eventually, I think, came towards the bridge.
Q. Is this right? There had been a number of casualties as a result of whatever had happened at the bridge?
Q. Help us with your recollection, please. Are we talking about two or three casualties, or tens of casualties, or hundreds of casualties?
A. I cannot really estimate the number of casualties. I did not go into town so as to see that. I went out to find the pacifier for the child, because it had broken, so that the mother could feed him. Then I saw a group of men, and I saw those uniformed men who would not allow anyone to get to the bridge. What I could see were things scattered all over. I saw how people were being turned in various directions to see whether it was an arm or a leg. Somebody said that it was behind the municipal hall, a head or something.
Then I went down practically to the mouth of the Brka River into the Sava. There was also a group 630which was looking at things scattered around and parts of bodies on the grass there, and it was quite crowded. We really had to find an appropriate place to see what was going on. But I realised what had happened, and I really didn't feel like counting. That is all I have to say.
Q. I didn't want you to think that I was suggesting to you that you should have stayed there to count. I was just trying to get an idea of how many people had been involved and either killed or wounded as a result of this explosion.
Would it be fair to say that it probably wasn't as many as 100 but it was more than ten or something like that? Would that be fair? If I'm not right about that, please say so.
Q. That's a fair comment?
A. Yes, I believe that that would be, yes, the correct estimate, yes.
Q. Thank you very much. You've been most helpful. It was as a result of, no doubt, that that you got your family away from Brcko. Did you then have conversations with members of your family?
Q. And I don't want to know about where your 631family went to or anything like that. Does it come to this, that you then sought, you and your family -- male members of your family sought to get information about what was going on and what you should do?
Q. And were some representatives sent to the local community office to find out what was going on, and a particular individual went to check?
A. Yes, they were sent, but I had already prevailed upon my family to leave home, which means that I was at home when those representatives were sent to the neighbourhood community.
Q. Can I just clarify this. By 1992, I think you were aged 34; is that right? 33 or 34? Born in 1958?
A. I guess so, yes.
Q. Had you, prior to 1992, done your JNA military service, compulsory service?
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. Was one of the things that you were interested in at that stage -- and I don't criticise in any way you for doing this -- but were you interested in what steps you should take towards helping to protect your neighbourhood? Was that one of the reasons why you sent representatives to the local 632community?
A. I didn't go there, to our neighbourhood community. It was another person, and we sent him to go there and see what was going on, because we could see what was in the offing, and we wanted to see whether there would be any resistance or whether it would be just left to take its course.
Q. In light of the information that you were given, did you and others then organise a number of patrols, armed patrols?
A. We organised guards in our street, and that was all. There was nothing else there to be organised. We avoided any contact with any person we did not know. We did not communicate with neighbouring streets either.
Q. Did you observe -- well, sorry, let me just ask this. Did you have at least one weapon, one firearm with you? Or was it more?
A. One. We had one hunting rifle.
Q. So that we have an accurate idea of where this is all taking place, what area of Brcko were you based in?
A. Next to the hospital.
Q. Did you, during the course of the guard duties that you undertook, did you come across, see 633anything of other patrols that had been formed?
A. We noticed to the left and to the right some groups, but were they patrols or something else, I don't know. We avoided any contact.
Q. Would those groups, would you have seen those in the Kolobara and Maoca areas?
Q. Just, again, so that we get the detail. Kolobara, is that an area which was, at that time, of mixed ethnicity but with a Muslim majority?
Q. And by "mixed," I mean Muslim, Serb, and indeed, Croat.
Q. Can you help us about Maoca? Can you just describe the ethnic makeup of that district? I'm sorry, I've been told on my left that I'm not pronouncing it correctly, but I hope you understand the area I'm talking about, Mr. G.
A. Maoca, yes. The structure was more or less the same as in Kolobara. The Muslims were a majority there.
Q. Thank you. I want to turn now to May the 1st, and would it be fair to say that's the first day of any degree of fighting taking place between the two 634communities?
Q. And the first that you were able to see of it were soldiers, in a vehicle, wearing a black hat with a cockade on? Is that right?
Q. From your experience in the army and so on, would you be able to say or identify who those troops were and which side they belonged to?
A. As far as this statement about the troops is concerned, this was a column which was moving and which had -- there was this person with a fur hat and a cockade, and these were the Chetniks.
Q. And in due course, you became aware that shooting had started; I think the phrase that you have used is "shooting." Is that small-arms fire, or small arms and artillery, or what?
A. It started out with small-arms fire on the other side of town on the 1st of May.
Q. "It started out with ..." Did artillery join in later on the 1st of May, or was it exclusively small arms?
A. Later, later, you could hear explosions too.
Q. And are you able to determine whether that was artillery, in the sense of field guns, or was that 635mortar fire?
A. I don't know what period. Which date in May?
Q. May the 1st.
A. On May the 1st, as I said, it started out with small-arms fire and maybe an occasional explosion. This is how it started out, and that is what went on into the night. I cannot say exactly, for these explosions, when they occurred.
Q. And could you identify the area of Brcko in which that was taking place?
A. It was in the area of town opposite from the part of town where I was. It was the Dizdarusa section.
Q. And then did there follow about two days when it was relatively quiet? Would that be right?
Q. And did you hear, on May the 3rd, from an acquaintance, something to the effect that the soldiers were not coming further into the town but that most of the town except for Kolobara had been taken over?
Q. Again, on the --
A. That they would not cross Brka, over here, but the centre of town and that area, they were already 636there.
Q. And again, on May the 3rd, was there some degree of small-arms fire that you could hear during the course of the day?
A. On the 3rd of May, the artillery fire started, and the explosions, immediately followed by small-arms fire.
Q. Firstly, could you determine from where the artillery was coming, and could you determine where it was landing?
A. The shells were flying over my head, and they were falling in the section of Meraja, Vici, and in the area of Suljaga Sokak, in those areas.
Q. And the area you've described, is that a residential area, the area that the shelling was landing?
A. Yes. Yes, Muslim population, with Muslim population.
Q. And would you describe the shelling that day as intense or sporadic? What would be the right answer?
Q. I think that as a result of that you decided that you were going to be safest in your basement, and -- 637A. Yes.
Q. -- did you become aware that small-arms fire was also taking place, but in two directions, rather than just the one of the shelling?
Q. And can you help me about this, Mr. G? Either at the time or subsequently, have you learnt whether people were killed as a result of the military activity that was taking place at that time? Or, indeed, did you witness any bodies lying in the street, or anything like that, that were obviously victims of fighting?
A. No. I was in the basement.
Q. Did you hear subsequently of people being killed, or when you came out, did you see that?
A. No, I did not see it when I came out.
Q. The shelling and shooting, did that stop at nightfall or did it continue during the hours of darkness?
A. Throughout the night, there was both shelling and there was shooting.
Q. I think that the next day, the 4th of May, you heard some shooting, but it subsequently became quiet, leading you to believe the fighting might have been over? 638A. Yes.
Q. And I think -- and I don't want to go into the detail of it in any way, but there was an incident with a soldier about to throw a hand grenade, which -- that incident was prevented?
Q. And from their uniforms you concluded that they were the Serb volunteer guards; is that right?
Q. And would another name for them be the Arkan soldiers?
Q. You weren't able to leave, I think, at that stage, but were allowed to go back in the basement; is that right?
Q. Was there any further fighting on the 4th of May?
A. On the 4th of May, I was at the mosque. Shooting could be heard.
Q. You were subsequently that day moved to the mosque. On your way, did you see military forces in the street or near the hospital yard?
A. I saw soldiers along the entire length of the street and between the houses. 639Q. And were they the same ones that you had seen earlier, the Serb volunteer guards, or were they regular troops, or what kind of troops were they?
A. Those were the ones who found us in the basement, the Serb volunteer guard.
Q. Mr. G, I would like to ask you now, please, about the mosque. When you got there, were there already people detained there or were you the first ones?
A. I was not among the first. There were already people there.
Q. Can you tell us how many people were there?
A. Again, it's a question of my estimate. It was a little less than half of the entire space in which we were kept, and now, I don't know how to estimate that number.
Q. I'm going to ask you to do your best. I don't want an exact figure, Mr. G; I know it's difficult. Is it a large mosque, small mosque? What's the sort of size of the mosque you would -- can you give us an idea of that?
A. It was a regular mosque. It was this one larger space, and there was a smaller one, and we were put in this bigger one.
Q. If I can just explore it a little further. 640After you arrived, were other people brought in after you arrived?
A. Yes, other people were brought in after my arrival.
Q. You've described the -- as best you can at the moment -- the size, but again, if we can use this method, are we talking about just 30 or 40 people, or 100-plus people, or 1.000 people?
JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I think you've already asked the question. Please move to another question. I think that you've already asked it, and he has answered as best he can. Please move along.
MR. GREAVES: I didn't pursue the question earlier on because I was thinking how best to put it to him, but I hadn't completed it. Please, can I just try and help him to help you?
JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] No, no, no. Please move to another question. Move to another question. We've spoken a great deal about the mosque already. You've asked him to describe whether it's big, small, average. The witness has answered as best he can. Please move to another question. Thank you.
Q. I would like you to help us, please, Mr. G, about who was in control at the mosque. Were they 641soldiers, were they police? What sort of people were in control at the mosque?
A. In the mosque, we were guarded by soldiers of the Serb volunteer guard. And different, other military groups could enter the mosque wearing different types of insignia.
Q. Is this right that, at that stage, women were separated from you?
Q. As well as women being separated, were any people who were under 18 taken away, or people who were obviously elderly and unfit for military service?
A. I know that inside there were also those younger than 18, and also elderly. It was only later that they were taken away from the mosque, not right away.
Q. So to clarify, the women were taken away first but at a later stage, on a later day, young people and elderly people were taken away?
Q. I'd like to ask you now about an incident which took place on the first night, Mr. G, involving, I think, a man called Enes Turkusic. Do you recall that name?
A. Turkusic; yes, I knew him. 642Q. You knew him, and what, knew him from before the war?
Q. And is this right, that he managed to escape from the building, from the mosque building?
Q. Did you hear anything either immediately after these events or in subsequent years as to what had happened to him after his escape?
A. I heard it later. I heard that he was killed on the 24th or 25th of May, that he had attempted to swim across the Sava River and was pulled out at Kolobara.
Q. And was that information given to you from a source that you trusted and thought was reliable?
Q. Thank you. I want to turn now, please, to the man who was killed on that occasion. I think you knew of him as Kike; is that right?
Q. Did you know that person from before the war?
Q. Did you learn at the time what his full name was, or have you learnt it subsequently?
A. No. 643Q. Can I offer a name to you and see whether it rings any bells: Kike Suljic?
A. Yes, but I did not know that name.
Q. Can I just clarify. You confirm that that may well have been the name, but you didn't know it at the time?
Q. Thank you very much, Mr. G, that's helpful. Did you become aware that person's brother was also being held at the mosque?
Q. Is this right, that at some stage, I think probably during the first night, somebody called Kosta came to the mosque?
A. Yes, he came around frequently.
Q. And was he someone that you knew from before the war, or was this the first time that you had come across him?
A. I saw him then for the first time.
Q. And can you describe the man that you called Kosta, can you give a description of him? Age, build, colour of hair, height, that sort of thing?
A. He had a dark complexion, looked like a Gypsy, as people say.
Q. Apart from that, can you say how old he was? 644A. Again, it's a matter of judgement. Perhaps my age.
Q. Was he bigger than you, smaller than you?
A. He wasn't as tall as I was. He was shorter.
Q. Just for the record, how tall are you, Mr. G?
Q. I would like you to look at --
A. I don't know if you want a drawing of me.
Q. No, thank you. You're being very helpful, and your answers are most concise, if I may say so. Thank you very much, Mr. G.
I would like you to look at a photocopy of a photograph, please, the Defence exhibit shown to the other witness.
JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] (redacted)
(4 lines redacted) Try to remain as close as you can to the examination in chief. Let me remind you of that.
Q. Would you please look at the photograph, Mr. G? That photograph may well be quite an old photograph dating from the mid or early 1980s. Is that 645the man that you knew as Kosta? Can you say? If you can't, just say so.
A. He's very light-skinned here. I cannot.
Q. All right, thank you. I would like now to turn, please, to May the 6th, Mr. G. That's the date on which I think you were transferred to the barracks. Can you say --
Q. -- how many people were transferred to the barracks?
A. I was on a truck that was fully loaded. We were packed, and we almost couldn't fit.
Q. Was there only one truck in use or was there other trucks used to transport you that day?
A. I believe it wasn't just one, but I cannot recall at this very moment.
Q. Mr. G, you have said that at the barracks, you saw Goran and Kosta?
Q. You say that on the 6th of May, he was wearing -- the man Goran was wearing a bandage?
A. I did not say that it was on the 6th of May. It was when he was at the barracks, but I cannot say what date that was.
Q. How many days were you at the barracks? 646A. I arrived on the 6th, and I was transferred to Luka on the 8th, in the afternoon.
Q. What you told the Office of the Prosecutor was that you were transferred by bus to the army barracks on the 6th, and you then described how you were taken to the front room of the building by soldiers, and that you saw Goran on that occasion and you [sic] had a bandage on his wrist. Does that refresh your memory as to the date when you saw him with a bandage?
A. As far as that statement is concerned, that we were transferred to the barracks from the mosque, I don't know about that statement. From what document is that?
Q. It's the statement which you made to the Office of the Prosecutor on two dates in February and March 1995, Mr. G, so not the statement that you made to the Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities.
A. I know that I was on a truck. I don't know about this other thing.
Q. You see, what I suggest is that if, as you assert, that was Goran Jelisic, Goran Jelisic had not at that time, the 6th of May, been injured in such a way that he had to wear a bandage and that you are either mistaken or being untruthful about him being at 647the barracks that day.
A. On which day, on which day?
Q. The 6th of May, Mr. G.
A. I did not say that Goran Jelisic was at the barracks on the 6th of May. I am not aware of that statement.
Q. So when you described, in your OTP statement, seeing somebody called Goran with a bandage, that was someone different from the person you identified in court today, was it?
A. No, that was the same person.
Q. What I suggest to you is that you simply didn't see Goran Jelisic on the 6th of May because he wasn't, at that stage, injured, didn't have a bandage, so that you may deal with that.
A. I did not see him on the 6th of May.
Q. I want to ask you now, please, this.
MR. GREAVES: Would Your Honour just give me a moment, please.
Q. Yes. I would like to ask you now, please, about some prisoners who were with you at the barracks. Would this be right? You recognised some of them; Adnan Mustic, Salim Karamehic?
A. Yes. I was with them.
Q. Mirasi? I think I pronounced that badly. 648Does that ring a bell?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. Someone you've described as Nermin Suljic, is it possible that that was, in fact, Nermin Suljagic?
Q. As far as the alleged conversation by the person you've identified as Jelisic about people coming to you later and giving percentages who would be killed and beaten up, I suggest to you that that was never said by Goran Jelisic.
A. Oh, yes, I claim that he did say that.
Q. Can you explain, please, why, when you made a statement to the authorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina, you made no mention whatever of that conversation?
A. As regards my statement to the authorities of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is a case unto itself, because I was almost interrogated when I was giving that statement. Here they read the statement, then they typed it, and what you notice there, you mentioned some names, the names of people that I did not know, and at the time that I gave my statement to the Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities, it was immediately in the wake of my exchange and every visit to -- that was the time when planes were shelling, when shells were falling, when there was bombing, when any -- so those 649were the conditions under which I gave that statement, under which it was worded, and I simply didn't want to go there again because it was so difficult, and I accepted what they showed me that day.
Q. I understand fully that your circumstances were most difficult. Let me just ask you this: Was that October 1992 when you gave your statement to the authorities in Bosnia-Herzegovina?
Q. Did you sign the statement at the end?
A. I did. It was said that it was merely for internal use, and I did not see any fundamental thing. All they wanted to know was what had been going on, what was happening, so some names, I said that they were typed later, and the statement was put before me. I explained why I didn't want to go there again. I simply wanted to have it over and done with as soon as possible.
Q. I shall be corrected if I'm wrong, but at the conclusion of your statement is this:
"At the end, I wish to state I give this statement based on what I personally saw and partly upon what I was told by others in the camp, and I sign it as my own statement. Everything I have included here I am prepared to verify before the court or some 650international commission which may be interested." Do you recall that?
A. No, not really. No, I don't recall it. I'm telling you the state I was in, and in a kind of my self-examination, and I simply was trying to get away from there as quickly as possible.
MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I don't want to take any greater length of time, but I want to confirm that that's what he signed, and I wonder whether the original of his Bosnia-Herzegovina statement could be given to him so that he could just identify his signature, please. I don't want to be unfair to him. If we've got the wrong document, then that would be unfair, of course.
A. No, there is no need. I already said, as regards that statement, I do not see really any fundamental thing except what they added into it subsequently, but I do not think it really affects much things that happened.
Q. Mr. G, do you accept that during the course of that statement, you named a number of people that you recognised at the barracks; Rajko Rajcic, Djordje Ristanic, Mladen Tesic or Teslic, Branislav Stanisavljevic, Ratko Orlic, Zeljko Muminovic, and 651Zoran Vasilisin?
Q. At no stage during that statement to the Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities did you say, "I had seen Goran at the barracks." Do you accept that?
A. I wouldn't know that I hadn't told them that, really. I telling you that they practically were interrogating me, and I wanted to get rid of them as quickly as possible.
Q. I want to turn now, please, to your transfer to Luka. At what time of day did your transfer take place?
A. Sometime in the afternoon.
Q. Middle of the afternoon, late afternoon?
A. After noon. I cannot be more accurate than that.
Q. When you arrived, were there people already there?
Q. Were they already inside the hangar, or were they outside, or where were they?
A. Both in and outside the hangar.
Q. Again, are you able to help us as to how many people were already there before your arrival? Sorry, upon your arrival. 652A. Well, it's again a matter of opinion, really, and I should say there were not less than 80 and not more than 120.
Q. Thank you. First of all, were they people who had been formerly at either the barracks or the mosque; did you recognise any of them from there?
Q. When you first got there, is this right, that you were told first to wait at the first hangar?
A. When we arrived there, those troops who had brought us told us to wait there.
Q. Would this be right, as you told the OTP, that there were some 30 to 40 standing outside the hangar, and those people had already received their passes?
Q. By "pass", Mr. G, I mean a pass enabling them to be released from the camp.
A. I don't know. I don't know what pass that was. But whatever the case, they were standing there, waiting to be released.
MR. GREAVES: Your Honour will forgive me. I forgot to deal with one matter concerning something which happened at the mosque, and I'll return to that now, if I may. 653Q. Mr. G, forgive me if we just go back a little bit. I forgot to put one matter to you. The man called Papa, Ahmed Hodzic or Hadzic, is this right, that firstly he was a local community leader and a member of the SDA?
A. He used to say that he was a member of the SDA and president of a neighbourhood community, I believe.
Q. Did you personally witness him being beaten?
A. While they were beating them there in the hallway of the mosque, at that time, yes, I was there.
Q. Was it being made clear that the reason he was being beaten was because of his connections with the SDA and his place in the community?
A. Yes, I thought that that was the reason.
Q. Thank you. I'll return now back to the front of the hangar, if I may, and I'm grateful for enabling me to go back.
Were you initially kept at the front of the hangar?
Q. You were able to see people being taken to the office?
Q. Is this right, that some of those were 654returning to your group with passes?
A. Not my group; the group across, across from our group.
Q. So that the initial group that you saw standing outside the hangar was being increased by people coming out of the hangar, going to the offices, being interrogated; do you know?
Q. Coming out of the offices and joining that first group?
A. While I was there, two or three joined that group.
Q. That group that already had passes, was it subsequently released that day or that night?
A. Towards the evening, towards late afternoon, they were released, yes.
Q. How long did you remain outside the hangar?
A. You mean in terms of time? I am afraid I did not have any sense of time. I said we were taken in by Goran Jelisic. It was a short time before the nightfall.
Q. Were you able to discover anything about the interrogations that were taking place?
Q. I want to ask you now about the killings 655which you say that you observed.
MR. GREAVES: If Your Honours would just give me a moment, please.
Q. What you told us today and what you told the Office of the Prosecutor was that the first person you saw with Goran was taken around the corner of a building and out of your sight. May we take it from that that you did not, in fact, see anybody being killed?
Q. And the extent of the information that you can give Their Honours is that the person you saw, the person you described as Goran, did not reappear?
A. What do you mean? I don't understand.
Q. The most that you can tell us is that one of the persons who went around the corner, the detainee, did not reappear?
A. Goran reappeared.
Q. Yes, but not the detainee? I'm interested in --
A. No. He did not.
Q. And you're quite sure that you saw absolutely nothing of the killing, or a killing, at that stage?
Q. So that you may deal with it, Mr. G, please, 656can you explain why, in your statement to the Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities, you claimed to have seen a killing at that stage then, in relation to the first person that you saw?
A. It seems I have to say that, again, that was not the way I put it to the authorities of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It was how it was put to me. And I did not want to come for the second or for the third time, because the second or the third person, that was the same kind of thing, said here and there. Do you know when it was that I gave my
statement to the Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities? They were writing it with a pencil, and on the basis of all the statements of all the people they interrogated at the time, they then made probably one statement. And I would have had to go back there and to be exposed again to all that I had been already exposed to. As to the substance, there is no difference, there is no discrepancy. I did not see the first one, but I saw the second one being killed. And I just really didn't want to go into it; I didn't want to discuss it with them. And besides, they also told me that it was only for their internal use. I didn't feel like going back there.
Q. Mr. G, I want to make sure exactly the 657circumstances in which you gave this account. You said to their Honours just now -- and I'm reading from your evidence -- "That was not the way I put it to the authorities of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It was how it was put to me." Are you saying that you were told what to put in that statement?
A. Yes, yes, I said the same thing as I said afterwards, that is the sequence and all of that.
Q. So where your statement to the Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities differs from that which you made to the Office of the Prosecutor, that may be explained by you being persuaded to put in things which were not true?
A. As regards the substance, I'm telling you, the first or the third, there is no difference in substance. I'm saying that I said what I had told them, and I said the same here, except that when they were putting it together, when they were writing it out, typing it out, then the third person appeared to be the first. That is, the third person that I talked about to them, they put it in the first place, and the other way. But basically what I said was that I saw with my own eyes one murder, and I don't see what else I have to say about that.
Q. I think we'll move on. 658As far as any conversation about handing over of valuables and so on, I suggest to you that that is not correct, that did not happen.
A. Well, I say that it did happen.
Q. Can you help us with this. The group that were in fact released, can you say at what time it was they were released? Was it close to curfew time?
Q. And so that we may know what time that was, at what time was the curfew on that occasion?
A. I don't know. Because one of those troops said, "Well, if you are releasing them, let us release them before the curfew." And I know when they were released, they all started running towards the exit.
Q. You were able to see them leaving. Was Goran still there when they left and able to see them leaving?
A. I suppose he could. I was in the hangar, right across the door. I saw them leave. Of course, I could not follow them all the time, but insofar as the door was open, I could see them leave.
Q. As far as the account which you give of Goran coming in and getting you all to sing songs and conducting that exercise, again, I suggest that that did not happen. 659A. I say that it did happen.
Q. Although it is right to say that you told the BiH authorities about being forced to sing songs, you said nothing to them about Goran directing and conducting the exercise, and in your statement to the Prosecutor, you made no mention at all of that incident; can you explain that?
A. I did not say that it was somebody else either. It simply depends, and one doesn't really remember every little thing at any given moment.
Q. During the course of the night, when you'd been put into the hangar, are you saying that people were taken out as foursomes throughout the night at regular intervals?
Q. Once every 15 minutes, once every 30 minutes? What are we talking about?
A. Well, it's again a matter of opinion. It wasn't all that quickly; not every 15 minutes. Some intervals were shorter and longer, but I cannot be more accurate.
Q. Again, what you told the BiH authorities was that three prisoners were taken out, and you made no mention of anything more than that. And --
A. Three detainees. At the time when the light 660fell on me, they also lit up those three prisoners. But I do not know -- as for that statement, I don't think I could have omitted to mention that.
Q. Again, in your statement to the Office of the Prosecutor, you mention a total of seven people being taken out.
A. I said after that first time, when the light was thrown on me, that I know that people were being taken out, but I couldn't know how many. To begin with, it was a long time ago. Secondly, I was really trying to use that time to come to terms somehow with my fate, trying to find some encouragement within me. I was focusing on my own fate. And when somebody said -- and when Goran came back, I was trying to remember those things then.
MR. GREAVES: I'm sorry. I misled the Court, in fact. The figure -- it's because I can't read my own writing. It should have been ten, not seven, and I apologise to Your Honour and the witness.
Q. It was ten, in all, that you mentioned, but in groups of three, three, and four, Mr. G.
JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I think that we might take a break now.
A. I don't know where I could have made that statement. 661MR. GREAVES: How long is the break for, so that we can go and see my client?
All right. I'm sorry. I missed what Your Honour said. I do apologise.
--- Recess taken at 5.00 p.m.
--- On resuming at 5.25 p.m.
JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] We can now resume the hearing. Please have the accused brought in, and be seated.
MR. GREAVES: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
Q. Mr. G, can I just clarify something with you, please. And just to retrace my steps slightly, the issuing of passes on the night of May the 8th, that's the day on which you were transferred to Luka. Is it your evidence that the issuing of passes was taking place in the administration offices or somewhere else?
A. From where the prisoners were taken to and then taken from.
Q. Was there a table inside the hangar where passes were being issued, passes for release?
A. In the hangar.
Q. Inside the hangar?
A. As I said, I don't know. With respect to the 662issuance of these passes, when I arrived there, people were standing in front of me inside the hangar, so I don't know.
Q. Were you able to see by whom the passes were being issued? Was it by an ordinary soldier, or a civilian, or somebody that you could identify, or -- help us with that.
A. No. No.
Q. I want to ask you just one detail, please, about the man Stipo Glavocevic. You knew him before the war?
Q. He was working as a police officer; is that right?
Q. He was of Croatian origin?
Q. I want to clarify one thing that was said or that you may have said in relation to the person Jasce or Jasce.
You told us about Goran coming in and asking a question. Can you just repeat the question again, because it's possible that your full answer may not have come out on the transcript. Can you tell us what exactly was said? 663A. Yes, I can. He said, "Let the person get up who cursed the Serbian waitress. I know who it is."
Q. That's all you say that was said?
A. Something like that, so that this person should get up himself.
Q. I want next to ask you about the man who enabled you to be released. I don't want you to say his name in public, but would you be prepared, please, to write it down for the use of the Court?
A. I don't know why the name is significant.
Q. Well, with respect, there may be information that we have concerning him that would enable us to, but I don't want to mention the name in public.
MR. NICE: Your Honour, I would respectfully invite my learned friend to show relevance before he compels the revelation of a name, the sensitivity of which is perhaps fairly obvious, for the person named assisted this man to safety and it may be there are concerns about this man's safety in the mind of the witness.
Absent relevance, there's no need for us to reveal that name at all. Once it is revealed to the Defence lawyers, it's inevitably available to everyone within the Defence.
MR. GREAVES: It is already within our 664possession, for obvious reason.
[Trial Chamber deliberates]
JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Move to another question, Mr. Greaves.
MR. GREAVES: I was going to say, Your Honour, that I didn't press the matter.
Q. In any event, that person arranged for you to get a pass. Is this also right, that -- and I don't want to know what the relationship was, but a relation of yours was also enabled to get a pass?
A. When I got the pass, I stayed behind in order to attempt to perhaps work with this person in order for my relative to be issued another pass, but eventually he was not issued the pass.
Q. How many people were released at the same time as you were?
A. In the line in front of this room, we were -- Your Honours, this is all a matter of judgement. We were about 10 to 15.
Sometimes when I state things like this, this is something that I say to the best of my recollection. They ask me to say exactly, but I say what I know best. So maybe later on, somebody again will ask me to say the exact number, and I may not even remember what I had said on a previous occasion when I 665was asked to give my best estimate.
Q. Mr. G, the answer that you've given is, "We were about 10 to 15." It would have been simpler, with respect to you, to have said, "We were about 10 to 15," if that's your answer. Thank you.
I want to ask you now, please, about the beating of Naza Bukvic. Is this right, that your evidence is that Goran said, in relation to her, that her brother was the main sniper in the town?
Q. So that the purpose and motive behind the beating was because her brother was a sniper?
A. Perhaps he made it a motive.
Q. I want to ask you next, please, about you having seen Goran Jelisic again after your release from Luka.
A. You mean Batkovic?
Q. No. Let me ask the question slightly more clearly. You left Luka, having been released on a pass. Subsequently, your evidence is that you saw Goran Jelisic on two further occasions, once at Batkovic camp and once when you were in a bus and persons pointed him out to you; is that right?
Q. Would you accept this, Mr. G, that in 666relation to your statement to the Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities, you did not mention at all seeing Goran Jelisic again, and in your statement to the Office of the Prosecutor, you only claimed to have seen him on one occasion at Batkovic camp?
A. These statements, and let me repeat it, were given in different circumstances. When I was giving a statement for the Bosnia and Herzegovina authorities, I was answering questions, and whatever I was asked, these were the answers that I had given them. It is entirely possible that I had completely forgotten about it.
Q. As far as learning what his name was, that is as a result of you being told by others what they believed to be his name; is that correct?
Q. I want to turn now, please, to the list of names. You will recall that with Mr. Nice, you went through a number of names, and I just want to ask a little bit more detail about that.
The man Midhat Cembic, is this right: Was he --
JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Let me remind you that you have about six or seven minutes left. Try to organise yourself accordingly, please. 667MR. GREAVES: I'm hoping to be done, but I need to just go through these.
Q. Midhat Cembic, Mr. G, is this right, that he was a member of the SDA?
A. I don't know.
Q. You heard that he had been labelled a sniper and that was the motive behind his killing. Did you hear any other details of that?
A. Regarding Midhat Cembic, when I was at the barracks, I know that a soldier walked in and asked us did anybody know Midhat Cembic. I did not respond at that time. Then he said, "Who would have thought that he was a sniper?" This is how I knew that he had been sort of pointed out as a sniper.
Q. This was as a result of something that somebody else said to you. Can you say when it was? Was any other information about when he had been killed given to you?
A. No. (redacted) (redacted). Nothing else.
Q. I'd like to turn, please, to the name Kasim Kartal. Is he one of two brothers who I think were at one stage involved heavily in football; is that right?
Q. Was either Kasim or his brother, to your 668knowledge, a member of the SDA?
A. I don't know. I don't know.
Q. Galib Muranjkovic, you knew something about his being killed, is that right, Galib Muranjkovic?
A. No. I said that I did not meet him either during or after the war, but when I was at Batkovic, his son had been brought there and he said -- he related that his father was taken off a vehicle on the way.
Q. Can you tell us the name of his father, the first name of his father?
A. Galib Muranjkovic.
Q. And the name of the son?
A. Son's name? Right now, I cannot recall it, but I know him and I would remember it at some point.
Q. Irfan Topalcevic, is this right, that you heard that he was killed at home? Did he live in the Kolobara district?
A. He did.
Q. Was he an SDA member, to your knowledge?
A. I don't know. I don't know.
Q. Do you know when it was that you heard he had been killed? Was it right at the beginning of the conflict or at some later stage?
A. Later. 669Q. Later. Can you say how much later?
A. I learned about that later. When I came out from Luka, it was then that I heard that Irfan had been killed, and I heard it from his acquaintances who were in the same building where I was put up.
Q. Mehmed Jakubovic, did he have a father called Muharem?
A. I don't know anything about Mehmed Jakubovic.
Q. So you don't know what his fate was?
A. No, I don't.
Q. Then -- and I'm coming fairly rapidly towards the end -- Sakib Becirevic; you heard that he was --
Q. Kibe? I'm sorry? What did you say, Mr. G?
Q. You heard that he was killed behind the gymnasium; is that right?
Q. And that was by somebody called Cesic?
Q. Do you know if he was a member of the SDA?
A. No, I don't.
Q. And can you say when the killing took place? Do you know any of that?
A. No, I don't. 670Q. Dr. Edhemovic, again, do you know any of the -- the date when he was killed? Would that be 1993? Do you know anything about that?
A. No, I don't know.
Q. The Terzic brothers: We've got details of three of them, but were there in fact four brothers? Can you help us about that?
A. They could have been Terzics.
Q. Somebody called Mido Terzic?
A. No. That wasn't him.
Q. I'd like, then, to ask you this: You've identified someone as Kosta, the Chetnik, as having been, according to your information, the killer of at least one if not all of the brothers. Is Kosta the Chetnik, is that Kosta Kostic?
A. I cannot confirm that.
Q. As far as -- is it your information that they were killed in the Kolobara district?
A. According to what I heard, yes.
Q. And Vasif Suljemanovic, you saw him late in 1992, sometime around October?
A. On the 4th or the 5th of October.
Q. Have you been given information that subsequently he was killed?
A. No. 671Q. And finally, Osman Vatic: He was detained at Batkovic; is that right?
A. It is, if that is the Osman Vatic without a leg.
Q. Yes. Well, the Osman Vatic without a leg, your information or your knowledge is that he was released; is that right?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Do you know the date upon which he was released, whether exactly or approximately?
A. I don't. I don't. He spent quite some time in the camp.
Q. Do you think it was 1992, or 1993?
Q. And your information, again, was that he was killed at his home subsequent to his release?
A. Yes, that is what I heard from other people.
MR. GREAVES: Would Your Honour just give me a moment, please.
Q. At the very end of 1992, or earlier than that?
A. Now, again, it's a matter of thinking, of estimating. I came out on the 4th of October, and he was released before that.
Q. All right. Thank you very much, Mr. G. I 672have no further questions for you.
JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Greaves. Thank you for having respected the amount of time that was given to you.
MR. NICE: I have one topic to deal with in re-examination.
Re-examined by Mr. Nice:
Q. Witness G, you have been asked questions about your evidence to the effect that the man, Goran Jelisic, at the barracks, spoke to you and others about what was going to happen to you, generally, and it was suggested that you had said in your statement to the Office of the Prosecutor that this happened on the 6th of May, and you denied that you'd said that in the statement, specifically.
MR. NICE: May the witness have the B/C/S version of the English statement which was taken, I think, in English. I've sidelined each version with the passage that I'd like him to look at. It's not an exhibit yet, and unless the Chamber wants these statements to be exhibited, they needn't be. If the English version could go on the ELMO, and if the witness could follow in the B/C/S version as I read from the English version. 673Q. Witness G, in your statement there is this passage: "During the afternoon of May the 6th, all the detainees in the mosque were transferred by bus to the army barracks. At the barracks, they put us in a big room near the kitchen. I saw Goran Jelisic and Kosta at the barracks.
"Soldiers took all of us from the room to the front of the building. I was about 20 or 30 metres from him. Goran had a characteristic voice, was good-looking, had a bandage on his wrist, and he wore the light blue civilian police uniform. He was slightly taller than average height and had black hair. Goran said to us, 'All of you are going to come to me later.' He also said, '70 per cent of you should be killed, 30 per cent should be beaten up, and 4 per cent of the 30 per cent were probably good.' He cursed us and called us balijas. At that time I did not know Goran's identity; however, I later saw him at Luka. Goran left, and we went back into the room. This occurred around noon. I spent two days at the army barracks before I was transferred to Luka camp." And then it goes on to deal with Luka camp. Two things: Did Goran Jelisic say to you the things that you've set out in this statement? "Yes" or "No"? 674A. Yes.
Q. Of the two days that you were at the barracks, can you say on which day this happened?
A. The first day -- it certainly didn't happen on the first day, because we were brought there in the afternoon, and this happened sometime in the morning, that is, before noon. It was daylight. So it could have been either the 7th or the 8th of May.
Q. Thank you very much.
A. And here, when I was telling you it was the 6th of May, no, I was simply speaking about the events that happened, and I told you that we were brought there on the 6th, and then I was recalling all sorts of other things, but I did not say that it all happened on the 6th of May.
MR. NICE: I have no other re-examination of this witness. Nothing else from me, Your Honour.
JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Thank you. Let me turn to my colleagues. No questions? No questions?
One point, but let me ask the Prosecutor, not the witness: Mr. Nice, it seems that there is an inconsistency between the statement made to the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the statements that were taken by your office. If you don't want to 675answer, don't. Here's my question: When you interviewed Witness G, did you call his attention to those inconsistencies, or did you use the same reasons that had been used? Do you understand what I mean?
MR. GREAVES: Your Honour, I don't think counsel can answer, because he wasn't -- according to the information -- present at the time when that interview took place, and I would be loath to get counsel to give evidence in the case, which wouldn't be a proper thing to do.
MR. NICE: I'm grateful for the protection of my learned friend, but as to the statement, it's quite --
JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mr. Greaves, you have a very subtle way of reminding me of things, but I think that the Judges can ask certain questions, and I would like to know something about that point. And before you spoke, Mr. Greaves, you noted that I was very careful to say to the Prosecutor that if he didn't wish to answer, he didn't have to. Therefore, I didn't really need your advice. It was simply a question asked for clarification for the Tribunal. I could have asked the witness the question, but I thought it was much easier to ask the Prosecutor. But I keep my question that I asked Mr. Nice, and that he doesn't 676have to answer if he doesn't want to.
MR. NICE: I'm quite happy to answer. In all matters, I feel that maximum --
JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I thought so. I thought so.
MR. NICE: As to the interview, of course, that is the statement that we've just been looking at. That was a statement taken well before I ever knew that I was ever likely to be at the Tribunal. It was taken by others. If Your Honour had in mind what's called, in accordance with the practices of this institution, the proofing session, I regret that I can't help you there completely, because I have fortune, good or bad, of having quite a lot of things to do, and the first -- the stage of proofing of the witness, I'm happy -- I'm fortunate enough to have someone else do that for me in the first stage, and I only spoke to the witness personally, myself, at the latter stage. I can find out for you, from the person who did the proofing of the first stage, whether the inconsistencies were drawn to the witness's attention, but I can certainly tell you that at the time I spoke to him myself -- which was shortly before he gave evidence; I think the day before -- I didn't draw those inconsistencies to his attention myself, because by 677that stage, matters were substantially already prepared and summarised. But I can certainly find out. I think, if it helps you, our approach
would -- well, yes, our approach would probably be to deal with obvious inconsistencies where they seem significant, because that would be a sensible approach with the witness, and to get them resolved. But of course we may not spot every inconsistency, or we may not regard them always as significant. And, of course, the overriding concern is to know from a witness what his present recollection and account is, and unless there is any reason to trouble him or her with earlier inconsistencies for clarification, that may not always be gone into.
But I can find out more about this witness. I can deal with the matter generally, if that would help you. And as to this witness, as with any witness -- we haven't exhibited the two statements, but -- and he's given an account of why the Bosnian statement is as it is. But I'm in the Court's hands. If the Court wants them to be exhibited, of course, they can be.
[Trial Chamber confers]
JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] I, myself, don't intend to go any further, even though I might say to Mr. Greaves that I'm allowed to by the Rules. But I 678have no further comments to make. I think the best thing to do, and I think everybody is agreed, starting with the interpreters, who must be tired after this long afternoon, I think that we should now adjourn today's session and resume tomorrow morning at 10.00. Would you like to add something,
MR. GREAVES: I would, please, if you wouldn't mind. We would invite you, at the very least, to have as an exhibit the statement made by this man to the Bosnia-Herzegovina authorities about which he has explained so much.
MR. NICE: In which case, probably better for both to be exhibited, I would have thought, both the Bosnian one and the one to the Office of the Prosecutor.
MR. GREAVES: I have no objection to that.
[Trial Chamber confers]
JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Mindful of the needs to maintain the rights of the accused, all of the statements should be tendered as evidence, and we'll ask the Registry to give them numbers.
We will now adjourn and resume tomorrow at 10.00.
MR. NICE: May I detain the Court -- I think 679it will be convenient -- is it possible to go into what's called, I think, private session for 30 seconds? It's an administrative matter that I've been asked to deal with.
JUDGE JORDA: [Interpretation] Very well.
(19 lines redacted) 6801.
(11 lines redacted)
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.00 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday, the 2nd day of September, 1999, at