⁴⁶⁶ Monday, 13th July 1998

(Open session)

(The accused entered court)

(The witness entered court)

--- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.

THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Case number IT-97-24-T, the Prosecutor versus Milan Kovacevic.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. KEEGAN: Good morning, Your Honours.

MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honours, before we proceed, if I may introduce an additional member of our team who is sitting at the desk with us today, Your Honour. This is Mr. John Ostojic, attorney from Chicago, member of the law firm McBrean and Kopko, and a founding member of the Serbian-American Bar Association.

Your Honour, he has been designated by the registry as an assistant; however, he has assisted immensely from the very beginning that I entered this case and he has been on the case, and I would like him to be recognised as an attorney who will receive an audience before this Trial Chamber.

JUDGE MAY: The registry has designated him as a legal assistant. I think we have been through ⁴⁶⁷ this with your other legal assistant, Mr. Vucicevic, and have said as far as we interpret the Rules, only counsel are allowed audience. I understand that matter has been taken up with the President. Perhaps you had better take this matter up too.

MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, first, he is prepared and would assist immensely to the Trial Chamber in the argument that we are about to deliver and also in the cross-examination at a later time. That's number 1.

Number 2, I have delivered a letter to the registry that has sufficiently addressed this matter in order to have him recognised, and basically, of the very sensitive personal issues, I do not think if I should address this openly to you; however, the letter that was delivered to the registry on Friday indicated that if the Trial Chamber shall not recognise him, that he will be treated and designated as co-counsel, and I believe that this Trial Chamber has been informed about this.

It seems to me that the desires and wishes of the client and lead counsel ought to be given some weight, proper weight, under the Rules of this Tribunal in order to effectuate the most efficient defence here. At this point, Your Honour, if you maintain that ⁴⁶⁸ Mr. Ostojic cannot talk, I would like to change the designation and I would like to put Mr. Ostojic as the co-counsel and Mr. D'Amato as the assistant.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Vucicevic, there are Rules, and you are bound by the Rules as we are, and at the moment, the Rules say that co-counsel only can address the Chamber, as I understand it, and not legal assistants. The position as to who is designated counsel and who is designated legal assistant is not a matter for the Chamber, it is a matter for the registry.

For the moment, we have made our ruling. We are not going to hear Mr. Ostojic for the moment. If you want to take the matter up with the registry, of course, you are free to do so, and as I say, you have already taken the matter up with the President in relation to another legal assistant, and no doubt you could take this matter up too. But for the moment, we are applying the Rules.

Now, can we get on, please?

MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, I understand this, but I think we have been discussing the singular matter: What is the jurisdiction and the province of the Trial Chamber? All the matters that relate to the Defence, and the effectiveness of Defence are the ⁴⁶⁹ province of the Trial Chamber and not the province of the registry. Let me finish, Judge, please. I have submitted a letter which I, in detail, explained all of this after your ruling on Thursday, and I have handed this letter directly to Mr. Roeland Bos to convey to the registry, and it has been conveyed to me that that has been done. If the registry, at the beginning of the trial, cannot change the designation of counsel in a day or two or three, it's a shame. I understand your ruling, but we are entitled to a good defence. We cannot be so sticking to the Rules and, on the other side, complacent about certain acts of the registry. Thank you, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Keegan?

MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour. First, before I begin with the witness, I would like to address the issue of the documents as that was a matter raised by the Chamber at the end of the proceedings on Wednesday.

I met with Defence on Friday and again on Saturday, and on the basis of our meetings, the situation stands at the present time as follows: The Defence has indicated they will agree to the admissibility of any of the Kozarski Vjesnik articles, they will agree to the admissibility of any document ⁴⁷⁰ signed by the accused, Milan Kovacevic, and they will agree to the admissibility of any document which mentions the accused which also has a signature on the original.

MR. VUCICEVIC: One correction. We have not agreed to admission of the documents where somebody else's signature is on the document, only where the accused's signature is on the document.

MR. KEEGAN: Then my notes must have been incorrect at the time of the meeting. Sorry. Thank you, Your Honour. If then I may

begin?

WITNESS: MEVLUDIN SEMENOVIC (Resumed) Examined by Mr. Keegan:

Q. Mr. Semenovic, on Wednesday, you testified about the removal of non-Serbs from --

MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, if I could present a base on our conference? In my consultation with both co-counsel in this case, we would like to present an argument of law on confrontation -- on the right of confrontation which is going to be denied if certain documents are going to be admitted through the fact witnesses.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Vucicevic, let's get to the documents and then we'll have the argument. That would ⁴⁷¹ be the right time to do it rather than in a vacuum.

MR. VUCICEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: We will move on. Yes.

MR. KEEGAN:

Q. Mr. Semenovic, on Wednesday, you testified about the removal of non-Serbs from their positions in the municipalities after the take-over. In the weeks following the take-over, did you become aware of any changes in the way that the economic and financial organisations or municipal organs in Prijedor and elsewhere were operated?

A. Yes.

Q. What was the nature of the changes that you became aware of?

A. The nature of the changes was as follows: Various transformations were carried out, changes in the ownership or changes in the relationship of the management boards and companies and the State of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. They were no longer a part of the economic system of the State of Bosnia and Herzegovina; they became a part of the economic structure of the newly formed Autonomous Region of Krajina in Banja Luka.

Q. How did you become aware of these various changes? ⁴⁷²

A. I learned of some of the changes personally, I became personally acquainted with them, but most of them I learned about from people who were fired and who came to our party headquarters to ask for help and to see whether something could be done for them to go back to their jobs. They also informed us of what the situation was immediately before they were fired from their jobs. We had all that information in our party headquarters, in our offices there.

MR. KEEGAN: I have a series of documents, Your Honour, I would now like to introduce. I will try to do them in an order based on the agreements that we just mentioned. Dealing with the ones signed by the accused first, and if I do them in a group, it may make it a bit more efficient.

The first three documents are document 6.2, 6.4, and 6.15 on the admission list, all documents signed by the accused, Milan Kovacevic.

The next two are documents 6.16 and 6.27, also signed by the accused, Milan Kovacevic. The final two signed by the accused are 6.28 and 6.51, Your Honour.

Q. Mr. Semenovic, if you would, please, starting with document 6.2.

MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honours, the document ⁴⁷³ that we have as 6.2, there is a stamp "Draft Translation" on the translation. We move this to be stricken because we can't be sure what this draft translation is. Is it final? Is it correct? Once the Prosecutor -- the Prosecutor has had at least six months to present a final translation. On April 20th, we objected, when these documents were produced to us. I move that these be stricken until we get a final translation.

In addition, Your Honours -- since all of these documents here -- I just noticed -- it seems that all of these documents are draft translations that you have before you.

MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour. Yes, Your Honours, I mentioned last week, when we first started with the documents, all of the documents, of course, we indicated at that time that they're in the process of final revision and that we would be admitting them contingent upon the final translation being admitted, but in addition, these documents were specifically reviewed by Defence counsel in the presence of myself. They viewed the originals, and these are the documents which they themselves at the time agreed to the admission of with the translation as they currently are. They viewed each one individually, ⁴⁷⁴ Your Honour. So unless they are now going back on that agreement, I'm not aware of it.

JUDGE MAY: Well, as far as the Prosecution are concerned, you are having these translations checked; is that right?

MR. KEEGAN: That's correct, Your Honour. Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Keegan, we will admit these documents, but subject to their being checked, if you undertake that that will happen.

MR. KEEGAN: Yes. It is happening as we speak, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Very well. And you will give us the results of those revisions.

MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour.

Q. Mr. Semenovic, if you would look now to 6.2, please? Can you please explain to the court what the nature of the company Energopetrol was, please?

A. It was a company that supplied the area of Prijedor with oil and derivatives, that is, fuel of various kinds. So they supplied and distributed and sold the fuel, mostly the kinds of fuel that I just mentioned.

Q. Does that include fuel for heating buildings and homes, fuel for automobiles and other vehicles? ⁴⁷⁵

A. Yes. Of course. All kinds of fuel. Liquid fuel.

Q. In paragraph 3 of that document, who does it indicate is responsible for the implementation of this order?

A. According to paragraph 3, the person responsible for the implementation is the President of the Executive Council, and Dr. Milan Kovacevic held that post.

Q. If you could look to 6.4, please? The basic and special sales taxes. Could you please briefly describe for the Trial Chamber what that means, what those taxes are?

A. Basic and special sales tax, it's the tax that was to be paid into the budget of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. The special sales tax is the tax paid on high tariff goods, cigarettes, coffee, certain kinds of fuel.

Q. What was the basic sales tax?

A. The basic sales tax is the tax that was paid to the States, to the Republic, on any sales of goods. When you manufacture something, you sell it then, and then, in the final price that is paid, a certain percentage of that price is the tax that is collected as the State revenue. ⁴⁷⁶

Q. In the collection of the taxes, what organisation within the municipality was responsible for the collection of taxes?

A. It was the SDK, the Social Accounting Service, and it was also in charge of controlling the regularity of the collection of taxes, whether taxes are being paid regularly, and it could also institute criminal proceedings against companies or persons who failed to pay the tax to the State.

Q. In normal times, prior to the take-over, prior to 1992, how was the sales tax distributed once it was collected by the SDK?

A. The taxes went into the State budget, that is, the budget of the Republic, and laws then determined how that would be allocated. A certain amount of that tax collected went back to the municipality, depending on the level of its development. For the poorer municipalities, the State allocated larger funds from its budget, and for the mid-sized and highly-developed municipalities, they allocated less funds. And that's the way in which they tried to balance the development of municipalities in the Republic.

Q. If you could look to 6.15 now, please? And the PTT that's listed, the company that's listed there, ⁴⁷⁷ could you briefly explain to the Trial Chamber what the PTT was, please?

A. The PTT public company; that's the abbreviation for Post, Telephones and Telegraph. It was a public company owned by the State or by the society, and it had a monopoly in the republic on the telephone communications and also on the postal service and all the other functions that postal service carried out. That was the only company in charge of that, and it was strictly controlled by the State.

Q. If you could look to document 6.28, please? Have you reviewed this document previously?

A. I saw it here at the Tribunal.

Q. Have you had an opportunity --

MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, now would be the time to hear my argument because this is the type of document that I am referring to.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. VUCICEVIC: When we had Dr. Greve recognised as an expert witness, it was Your Honour that said this is hearsay upon hearsay, and Dr. Greve was testifying about, you know, what witness has told to the investigator that was later on communicated to her.

Here we have a witness who is a politician, ⁴⁷⁸ officer, one party who is attempting to speak about documents either of the body of the Prijedor Municipality where he wasn't present, where he wasn't elected, and that he was only a local party official for the SDA. But there are going to be documents that are even much further remote from this witness than this one, and they are documents of the SDS, documents of the Crisis Staff, the documents, as he just indicated, he never saw before but today. He is, as Mr. Keegan indicated in our

conference on Saturday, a fact witness and not an expert witness, and Dr. Greve was given latitude to testify on those, even to the strong admonition of Your Honours.

The problem here that we are facing, it is not hearsay but it is a fundamental right to cross-examine the evidence that is presented against the accused. The documents that are not in his knowledge, the content of the documents that were -- that didn't become part of his knowledge contemporaneously with its making or that he has not talked about the content of the document contemporaneously with some people that are indicated in the document are hearsay on the nth power, infinity -- that was so far removed that anybody could be ⁴⁷⁹ proven guilty on anything on that type of evidence. Because -- if we accept it, we are going to write Article 21 out of the Statute, and those are the rights of the accused. Right to cross-examination is indeed a sacred right in civilised systems.

We ask you to make a ruling that we should be given a right to cross-examine the evidence against the accused.

Sometimes -- we are mindful of your decision that hearsay is admissible, but there is a collateral way of it before learned Judges, as you are, to collaterally examine upon hearsay. But on the documents that the witness has said he has never seen them before today, there is no way to cross-examine the document, nor the statements in the document. The Prosecutor has had a chance, he prepared, he said he was ready to go ahead in the case. He should have had somebody at least who knew something about the document at the time the document was made. If you don't hold the Prosecutor to that, this is not going to be fair to the accused. Thank you.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Vucicevic, there is a distinction, isn't there, between the document itself being produced if that document speaks for itself in some way and someone giving evidence about it? Of ⁴⁸⁰ course, if somebody gives evidence about a document when they know nothing about it, that would be hearsay. But if the document is produced as a document without any comment, then, it seems to me, that it may be admissible. What the purport of the document is, what the significance of the document is, will, no doubt, emerge during the trial.

So it would seem to me, subject to, of course, discussing the matter with my colleagues and hearing what the Prosecution have to say, that a document could be admitted as a document. The witness could tell us what the Sarajevo Commercial Bank is, because that, no doubt, would be a matter of general knowledge, but as to the effect of the document or anything of that sort, well then, he couldn't really speak because, as you say, he wouldn't have seen the document before he got here the other day. I will see what Mr. Keegan has got to say about the matter.

MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour. Firstly, we agree entirely with the Court's statements with respect to documents in and of themselves being admissible by virtue of the nature of the document and the relevance established and the import can be established in many cases from the face of the document ⁴⁸¹ themselves. And, indeed, there will be many, many documents in this case that, in fact, we will seek to admit on that basis alone.

But it may also be the case that you have witnesses who, although are being brought here primarily as fact witnesses, may have particular experience or background or knowledge that gives them a basis for providing further explanation for documents. In this case, as we indicated in the testimony last week for this witness, he has particular knowledge and experience with the effect with the functioning of governmental structures in Bosnia-Herzegovina, particularly at this time as he was a member of the parliament as pointed out by the Defence, had been elected from Prijedor to the Republican Assembly and had been dealing with the issues of developing a governmental structure for a new state during which he was engaged in the process of deliberation, negotiations and reviews of existing laws in the former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in an attempt to create the laws of a new state. In addition to his direct experience, in the Prijedor Opstina with its local government as a key member of the party that was engaged in the deliberations and discussions on the effect of functioning of government there. ⁴⁸² In contrast to what the Defence counsel has said this morning, the evidence on the record indicates that this witness was present in Prijedor. That except for the times that he was in Sarajevo for the Republic Assembly, sessions or meetings, he was present in Prijedor. He, as a key member of that party in Prijedor, was intimately involved by his testimony in developing solutions to the difficulties that were occurring. He was the subject of repeated, or the person who received repeated reports from individuals throughout the municipality on the different and growing problems as they came to the party seeking possible solutions or at least advice on how to proceed.

Certainly, to the extent that you find that the witness does not have sufficient foundation to render an opinion or to give the particular explanation being offered, and of course, that evidence should be given no weight. But should you find that they do have sufficient background or experience, then they are certainly capable of giving an opinion or an explanation with respect to a particular document that may assist this Trial Chamber, even if they are not being particularly classified as an expert witness.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Keegan, what is it, for ⁴⁸³ instance, that you want to ask the witness about this Document 6.16?

MR. KEEGAN: Well, for example, Your Honour, the funds that are listed here, this document, it's 6.28 that we're dealing with.

JUDGE MAY: I'm sorry, 6.28?

MR. KEEGAN: I thought we'd move to 6.28, are we not? I thought so, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: We seem to have moved there, yes. Let's go on to 6.28 if that's the one. Mr. Vucicevic, is it that document that you began your objection to?

MR. VUCICEVIC: Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: You don't need to tell us what it is for the moment. I just want to find out by way of example what the document was.

MR. VUCICEVIC: The document is signed by the accused. We do not have an objection for this document being admitted. However, Mr. Semenovic was not present on this meeting. And for him to testify what the basically official conclusion of this meeting, with the document, which the document speaks for itself would be only for him invitation to editorlise or in a fine piece of oratory that Mr. Keegan presented, would be invitation for you to violate your own rule on the ⁴⁸⁴ disclosure of expert witness. If Mr. Keegan thought that Mr. Semenovic is an expert witness, he should have so declared him and basically let us all know before the deadline which has long past.

Secondly, what I said previous and you were concerned about it, that Mr. Semenovic could testify indeed on all the documents in which he participated in passing on the state level. He can testify on all the documents that where he or his friends or party, co-workers, participated in the SDA. But he was not a member of this body and this is official document, sealed and signed, speaks for itself.

JUDGE MAY: What is it, Mr. Keegan, that you wanted to ask about 6.28?

MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. Particularly with the funds that are listed there, what the relevance of some of those funds were, so that later on, their clear importance to the issues that do develop in Prijedor and the conflict that which is then initiated makes this document particularly relevant with respect to the involvement of this accused.

JUDGE MAY: We shall admit this evidence, but on this basis. We shall admit documents that speak for themselves, such as these documents. The weight and significance of the documents are purely for us to ⁴⁸⁵ determine. We shall allow the witness to give evidence about the documents to this extent and this extent only: That he is able to explain matters which appear on the face of the document, such as these funds, provided he knows about these matters from his own knowledge. If he knows the matters that are referred to, then, of course, he can give evidence about that. But as for the interpretation of the document and deciding on weight and significance, that is for the Trial Chamber to decide and not the witness. Yes.

MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

Q. Mr. Semenovic, you had an opportunity to review this document?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, I would direct your attention then to the section which describes the various funds for which the listed individuals in paragraph 1 will have the authority to sign documents for.

A. Yes.

Q. With respect to Paragraph No. 1, funds for building shelters in Prijedor Municipality, during the period in the fall of 1991 and the beginning of 1992 as the Municipal Assembly was being brought together, convened in Prijedor Municipality, did you take part in ⁴⁸⁶ discussions with the other party leaders with respect to the budget and the nature of the items which should be in the budget for the Prijedor Municipality?

A. Yes.

Q. Were -- was the consideration of building shelters within the municipality one of the priority items mentioned in the discussions in the Municipal Assembly and within the party leadership?

A. No, no, it was not.

Q. With respect to No. 2, can you briefly describe for the Trial Chamber -- well, let me ask you first this. As a resident of the Prijedor Municipality, throughout your life and as a member, as we have previously discussed in the senior leadership of that party and on the basis of your discussions, were you aware of what fell within the category of municipal emergency supplies?

A. Do you mean with reference to Item No. 2?

Q. Yes, what types of items constituted or fell within the category of municipal emergency supplies?

A. While the assembly was functioning often, the urgent problems were of the economic nature. We had to set aside the funds for the economy to assist with the transformation of the companies and those were the priorities, the economy, the agriculture and so ⁴⁸⁷ on.

Q. Yes. My question was, based on your experience as a resident in Prijedor, throughout your life and your particular experience in the governmental structure during '91 and '92, do you have knowledge of the types of items that fell, normally fell within the category of municipal emergency supplies? What were they?

A. Every municipality had to, in order to function in a balanced -- in order to have the balanced market, every municipality had to have the reserves. And this is how it was always in our Republic. This was regulated by the legislation. The reserves were held at the level of the republic and at the level of the municipality and the purpose of that was, should there be some kind of disbalance, so that the state could intervene. And the other purpose of that was, so that these funds can be used should there be some emergency situations of war situation, so that these reserves can be used to feed the population.

Q. What other kinds of items would be included within emergency supplies? What types of items?

A. The food article and fuels and the medicine, those were the priorities with respect to the reserves. ⁴⁸⁸

Q. No. 3, funds for All People's Defence and social self-protection in the Prijedor Municipality, what do those categories include? What do those terms mean, "All People's Defence and social

self-protection"?

A. It included the Territorial Defence, the reserves of the Territorial Defence, the reserve formations, civil protection and this issue -- the issue of financing was regulated by the legislation that work was passed automatically. And there was no need for any further intervention unless, unless there was a war situation, a war activity. In that case, the Territorial Defence required larger funds and larger funds had to be provided. So just in the case where it was an emergency situation or preparation for the war situation, if there was a war danger.

Q. When you mentioned it included the Territorial Defence, you then said, "The reserve formations and civil protection," what did you mean by "reserve formations," please?

A. The reserve formation of the police -- the reserve police forces or what we used to call war police.

Q. No. 4, funds for the prevention of livestock epidemics in Prijedor Municipality? ⁴⁸⁹

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Keegan, do we really need to be told about this? It speaks for itself, doesn't it?

MR. KEEGAN: There are two questions with respect to that I would prefer to ask, Your Honour, if you would indulge me?

JUDGE MAY: Of course.

MR. KEEGAN:

Q. Previously I asked you about the negotiations on the priorities for the budget. In what kind of -- in what position in the budget did the issue of livestock epidemics normally hold? Was it a matter of importance in a municipality?

A. No, no, it was never a highly important item. They were at the bottom of the list usually where we had the funds for culture for the infrastructure and so on.

MR. VUCICEVIC: This directly flies in the face of your determination. He was not a member of the Municipal Assembly even when it was together. This is, you know, a document that represents a document from Serbian Municipal Assembly dated May 7th. And if he has been so astute and followed every minutiae on the municipal level, perhaps he could have produced his own notes that he was aware of that. But this is basically an attempt to circumvent, Your Honour. ⁴⁹⁰

JUDGE MAY: I don't agree. He is speaking from his experience. But whether of it is of any assistance, I rather doubt it. Can we move on, Mr. Keegan?

MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour.

Q. Mr. Semenovic, you were present in Prijedor, and we will get to this testimony in a while, during the attacks on Kozarac and the surrounding area; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And during the time that you were in that area until you were brought into the camps, can you describe for the Trial Chamber what effect the attacks had on the issue, an issue which would be relevant to livestock epidemics in Prijedor Municipality? What was one of the results of the attacks?

MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honours, same objection. Plus, you know, the question asked the witness to speculate because this witness came by himself to the camps, Tadic transcript.

JUDGE MAY: I shall allow the question. Yes, can you deal with this fairly quickly, Mr. Semenovic, please.

THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour, I will. The result of the war action was that a large number of ⁴⁹¹ houses were burned and so were the agriculture land and the barns where the livestock was. The livestock in many cases burned too. There was also a lot of livestock that was shot, that was shot, that was killed when -- by the grenades. And there was a lot of livestock that was just wandering around the meadows and the forests and the Serbian soldiers would collect that livestock. There was also a lot of carcasses and a lot of places people would see that. And the carcasses were not removed on time. They were left there for a long time where people were killed. And that created a possibility for epidemics for infection and it would be difficult to pass through some places because you could smell the stench, in 10 metres diameter. I would see the dead livestock in the area in the time that I was hiding in that area. And, yes, at that time there was a huge -- there was a realistic possibility for infectious, for the spread of infectious diseases.

Q. You mentioned carcasses and then in the next section you mentioned they were left for a long time where people were killed?

A. Yes.

Q. Were you referring to animal carcasses or human corpses? ⁴⁹²

A. Both, animal and human.

Q. If we could move then to Document 6.27, Your Honour.

Mr. Semenovic, have you had an opportunity to review this document?

A. Yes.

Q. And can you briefly explain to the Trial Chamber the nature of the insurance company, Zoil, Z-o-i-l?

A. Yes, it was the insurance company that was controlled by the state and it had monopoly. It was mandatory both for the citizens and for the companies. They had to be insured through this company, based on the legislation all the companies had to insure their property through this insurance company and also certain parts of personal property had to be insured through that, cars and other vehicles, the machines and it was a mandatory insurance. It wasn't voluntary or optional, it was a mandatory one and it had to be paid regularly because this is how it was regulated by the legislation.

Q. Was it common knowledge that this mandatory insurance, state company, had huge financial reserves?

A. Yes, yes, it did have. It was a common, well-known fact. ⁴⁹³

Q. Given the prior comments already, Your Honour, I will forego the explanation of the Sarajevo Bank on Document 6.16 and just move to admit all of these documents.

JUDGE MAY: Very well.

MR. KEEGAN: The final document, Your Honour, is Document 6.51, again signed by the accused, Milan Kovacevic.

Q. Mr. Semenovic, have you had an opportunity to review this document?

A. Yes.

Q. Based on your experience as a parliamentarian, can you explain to the Trial Chamber briefly what the final part of that first paragraph means, where it talks about the companies which were owned by the Republic of Slovenia, Croatia or the former Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, as it's referred to here? It's given to the temporary ownership of Prijedor Municipality until final settlement of assets, what does that mean, "temporary ownership to the Municipal Assembly"?

MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, this is a plain language on its face.

JUDGE MAY: Well, that seems to be so, Mr. Keegan, it seems to explain itself. ⁴⁹⁴

MR. KEEGAN: Very well, Your Honour, we'll move on, if the Trial Chamber sees that.

Q. Now, Mr. Semenovic, if we can turn then to your experiences in Prijedor. At the last session on Wednesday afternoon, you testified about a meeting between SDA and SDS officials after the take-over, which you attended, and you testified as to comments made by Radmilo Zeljaja, what, if any, comments about Kozarac did the SDS officials at the meeting make?

A. The officials at that meeting didn't speak much, Slobodan spoke and Mr. Simo Miskovic as well.

Q. What, if any, comments did Mr. Miskovic make?

A. Mr. Miskovic said that we have to accept what we are being asked to do and then he said that in Kozarac there must be a Serbian flag and Serbian police present. And unless we accept that, he literally said, I am quoting, "We will not be able to prevent our extremists for a long time, to stop them. They will do it on their own."

Q. What, if any, comments did he make with respect to the flag of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

A. Yes, he said in Kozarac there has to be a Serbian flag. We cannot look at the flag of the former Bosnia-Herzegovina in Kozarac. And Mr. Medunjanin ⁴⁹⁵ tried to reply, but was not successfully.

Q. Did the SDA propose any measures to try and reduce the tension in the area or moderate the situation?

A. Mr. Medunjanin spoke on behalf of the SDA the most. He proposed that SDS and the army that was present at the meeting form a delegation and then jointly go around Kozarac and visit all the areas and then ask the soldiers, the army and the SDS to form joint groups formed from the members of the Territorial Defence in Kozarac and so they joined groups of the TO and the army who would then guard the reserves so that they could calm down the tension, but they did not accept any kind of discussion on this issue. And at the end, Medunjanin stated that after the ultimatum that was issued, he said, all right, gentlemen, we will ask the people, we will gather them and ask the people to state their opinion on your request.

Q. After this meeting, did you and the other leaders of the Bosnian Muslim Community discuss what might occur next?

A. Everything was clear to us. The messages that we were given were not indirect. They were quite direct. Zeljaja literally said, gentlemen, you have to return 5.000 rifles. Once you return them, then we can ⁴⁹⁶ start the discussion again. You have a deadline. I think, if I remember correctly, he said five days was the deadline. If you do not return them, we will not discuss any further. And it was completely clear to us, at that point, what were their intentions and that they will attack with arms, Kozarac and the surrounding areas. Because we were not able to reply to those requests, we had no means. We had not nearly as many arms, as many rifles as they requested us to return by a certain day.

Q. By the time of this meeting, were you, and other leaders of the Bosnian Muslim Community, aware of attacks on non-Serb areas in other parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

A. We watched it every day, daily on television, even before that, prior to these events in Bijeljina, Bosniaks and Croats were killed, literally, women, elderly. We saw the pictures of civilians being shot at from close proximity. We also observed the activities of the Serb army in Zvornik and also Musakrahs (phon). And we also had information from Bosanski Novi, where prior to that the military action has been carried out. And where people were gathered in the stadiums and they were marked in a special way. Some of them managed to escape from Bosanski Novi and ⁴⁹⁷ this is the information that they gave us. The freedom of movement with was non-existent. We couldn't move neither to Prijedor nor to Omarska. Prior to that, the departure from Prijedor Municipality was forbidden to women and to elderly and children. And everything was quite clear to us. We just tried to -- we looked for the way to find a peaceful resolution to this. However, we had no influence, we couldn't affect the events and, in fact, we were being told that, we were being clearly stated what the intentions were.

Q. You mentioned that freedom of movement was non-existent, we couldn't move either to Prijedor, nor to Omarska, could you explain what you mean by that, please?

A. In May, after the take-over by SDS, two or three days after that, the buses were returned, the buses that left from Prijedor towards Banja Luka, they were stopped around Omarska. Part of the passengers were robbed and then the buses were sent back to Prijedor. On the radio there was an information and spread out that Muslims are preparing for the war against the Serbs and that they're evacuating, they wish to evacuate their families, women and children so they can fight better, more successfully. After that, the travel on bus was ceased and after May 4th or 5th, ⁴⁹⁸ there was basically no traffic. They had checkpoints, military points at the exit points of Kozarac towards Prijedor. At the entrance of Prijedor, there was no traffic. It was impossible to send children to school, the children from Kozarac who went to high school from Prijedor.

The events, the activities around us, we followed them by radio, by television. Part of it we watched was Belgrade Television and part of it was Croatian Television that we could watch there, and everything was clear to us. There was a huge fear present, and all we did was just sit there and expect the attack. We tried -- and the conclusions from all of our meetings was to try and not give them any motive and to not react to the shootings that took place around the houses of Bosniaks. The shootings at that time were quite frequent. In Kozarac on May 3rd, the army sent a tank into the intersection. The tank was there for several days with a complete crew and a certain number of soldiers. They were fully armed and aiming at Kozarac.

Q. Just a minute, if I may? How was it that you were able and the other members of the delegation were able to actually attend the meeting then in Prijedor which we have been discussing? ⁴⁹⁹

A. There was telephone contact between the army in Prijedor and the Crisis Staff, the local community in Kozarac and the police in Kozarac, and the Territorial Defence also in Kozarac. Maybe a day after the take-over, the people from the Crisis Staff called Kozarac and required that a group go there for negotiations. As far as I remember, that was Becir Medunjanin who was called, Ilijaz Music and some other people. So the negotiations took place on the 5th, as early as on the 5th of May. They had assurances of security. In the beginning of May, for the first ten days, it was still possible to go to Prijedor. I went to Prijedor on a bus. But after the 15th of May, it was impossible, 15th to 18th, I'm not sure about the exact date. It was absolutely impossible. It wasn't safe. People were afraid for their lives. If I may? The last negotiations, the

invitation to that meeting that I spoke about, it was arranged via telephone links with the Territorial Defence staff in Kozarac and the Serbian authorities in Prijedor. We all came together and we went to Orlovci in one car, and the Serbian authorities told that they would advise the Serbian soldiers at the checkpoints and that they should let us through and to let us go back, and that's how it was. ⁵⁰⁰

Q. Now, subsequent to that meeting, what plan of action did the Bosnian Muslim leadership in the Kozarac area decide upon?

A. The only decision was for us to defend ourselves. We were sure that we would come under an attack because that was made plain to us, and the population could not go anywhere, flee anywhere. There was nowhere out. The only possibility left for us was to keep quiet and, in the case of an attack, to defend ourselves, to prevent the massacres in our area the massacres that occurred in some other municipalities of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Q. What type of forces existed at that moment, the day of that meeting, in the Kozavac area, which would be available for defence?

A. There was the Territorial Defence.

Q. At that time, are you aware of how many people were mobilised acting as members of the Territorial Defence?

A. I personally did not know the exact number, but I knew that it was not sufficient, that not enough people had been mobilised. We were not able to conduct, to carry out the order of the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina - I think it was dated the 8th of April - to mobilise the Territorial Defence. It ⁵⁰¹ wasn't possible to carry it out because the Territorial Defence, its headquarters was in Prijedor. Some of the commanding officers were of Serbian nationality, and they blocked this process. The only option left was for the local parts of the Territorial Defence to carry out the order of the Presidency on the mobilisation, but the technical conditions were non-existent. We did not have them. We had very few weapons. People were not organised according to the organisational charts, and we had to organise everything ad hoc very quickly, so that in the event of an attack, we would be able to defend ourselves and avoid the massacres.

Q. So what steps were undertaken, then, to try and prepare for the attack?

A. The Territorial Defence was expanded as much as possible.

Q. How was that expansion conducted?

A. Well, we asked the people at those gatherings, we had rallies of the people, of the citizens, we asked them, what are we to do? We wanted to have the opinion of everyone. Everybody knew that we did not have enough people in the Territorial Defence to defend against the forces that were deployed around us, and the conclusion was to ask people whether they wanted to volunteer and to join the Territorial ⁵⁰² Defence, everybody who had any kind of weapons, hunting rifles, pistols, and they reported to duty, even those who did not have any weapons decided to join. We deemed that out of the number of people that we had, every fifth person had some kind of weapon, so people placed themselves at their disposal, and we wanted to take shifts at the lines to defend our village. So that the Territorial Defence had a large number of people who decided to join, but they did not have the weapons. They were not armed.

Q. How were those people actually contacted, how were they added to the TO list, and how did you determine who had weapons?

A. Every person was -- every man was approached in their own house and they were asked directly and they signed indicating that they agreed to join. We wanted to conduct this in accordance with the legal procedure, in accordance with the rules on the organisation of the Territorial Defence, and all those who stated that they wished to join the Defence, they put their signature, and all those people who had weapons, they indicated what kind of weapon they had, and they signed it.

Later on, from these records, we attempted to expand the existing formation of the Territorial ⁵⁰³ Defence and to adapt it to the area in which we lived. Immediately before the war, since there was no other solution available, we contracted a few blacksmiths. We wanted them to make some kind of home-made pistols, guns, with metal tubes because people were afraid and there weren't enough weapons, and that was a way for the people to try to obtain some kind of weapons to arm themselves and to defend themselves, and we managed to produce some of those guns, and some other people who did some metal processing, they also manufactured their own weapons.

Q. Did you yourself sign the list indicating that you would volunteer for the TO?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you possess a weapon?

A. No.

Q. Now, was the intended organised defence force actually able to be formed?

A. No.

Q. And why not?

A. We did not have the means for that. Telephone communications were down and communication equipment was scarce. I'm talking about the walkie-talkie equipment that the police and the Territorial Defence had, they were not in good order. ⁵⁰⁴ We did not have enough fuel for the commanders in the Territorial Defence to communicate with their units. We did not have time to train people. For some people, it was the first time that they held a weapon in their hands. We did not have the officers. We had two or three men who had some kind of experience, who were retired military officers, and when we managed to improvise some kind of solutions, then the problem was that we did not have enough weapons, not even one-third the weapons required to successfully defend the area.

Q. You've talked about the problems of communication. What then was the primary method of communicating between the local communes in the area?

A. I did not understand the question.

Q. Earlier in your previous answer, you discussed the problems of communication. What was then the primary means of communicating between the local communes? How were messages passed? How were instructions passed?

A. Radio communication or telephones, if the information was of such a nature that it could be conveyed over the phone.

Q. If it wasn't, what did you rely upon?

MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, objection to the form of the question. Leading. ⁵⁰⁵

JUDGE MAY: I shall admit it.

MR. KEEGAN:

Q. You can answer the question.

A. We were forced to communicate physically. If you had to go from one area to another, then you went there by bicycle or by motorbike, not often by car because there was not enough fuel. People had already used up all their fuel reserves. So this coordination required a lot of time.

I went to Kozarac a couple of times by bike; it's a distance of about 5 kilometres by the time you go there and come back. If it's an urgent issue that needs to be resolved, then you're late.

Q. At this time, were there checkpoints being manned by members of the Territorial Defence in the local communes?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Were all of those members armed?

A. No.

Q. You indicated earlier that the Territorial lists were drawn up and people were contacted in their houses. What was the level of the organisation for the Territorial Defence in the Kozarac area at that time? On what level was it organised?

A. At the level of the Republic. And the orders ⁵⁰⁶ from the level of the Republic applied only in the areas where Bosniaks, Croats, and other non-Serbs were.

Q. You've discussed earlier the order. What I'm referring to now is, during the time that you were trying to organise the Territorial Defence in the Prijedor area, the Kozarac area, what was the level of the organisation? At what administrative level?

A. Yes. In Kozarac --

MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, that's been asked and answered. He asked the same question.

A. In Kozarac, there was the command of the Territorial Defence for the Kozarac area, so that's where the command was; and at the lower level, you had the local commune. Local communes had their own local Territorial Defence units, and those who were in charge of those units had their command in Kozarac. The basic organisational unit of the Territorial Defence was the local commune.

MR. KEEGAN: Could we have Exhibit 35 shown to the witness, please, which is the map of Prijedor? If that could be placed on the overhead, please? Now, could the map be moved so that it

focuses on the Kozarac area, please, on the overhead? Now, is it possible to pan back a bit? Thank you. ⁵⁰⁷

Q. Mr. Semenovic, if you could, please, to assist the Trial Chamber, could you please indicate the various local communes that were then being formed as part of the Territorial Defence for the Kozarac area?

A. This is Kozarac, and this is the Kozarac area. There are several local communes. There are the local commune in the town itself, then the local commune of Trnopolje, this area here, then Kamicani, local commune of Kozarusa, local commune of Brdani.

Q. If we can slow that down a bit to make sure that it's clear to everyone? As we look at that map, Kozarac now being in the centre of the screen, the local commune of Trnopolje would be now to the -- could you indicate that area, please?

A. The area of local commune of Trnopolje is here.

Q. You may need to move the map up. Now, could you please indicate that again?

A. So this is the area of the local commune of Trnopolje. This is where it is. To the south of Kozarac, down this road that's visible here and close to the fish pond, fishery, this is the local commune of Trnopolje. It consists of several villages, Trnjani, Kararici, Sivci, Mujkanovici, and so on.

Q. That is the local commune that you were from? ⁵⁰⁸

A. Yes. That's my local commune where I lived.

Q. Now, the local commune immediately above that, between Trnopolje and Kozarac, what was that area referred to as, between Trnopolje and Kozarac?

A. The local commune of Hrnici, this part here.

Q. Now, that road that runs on the map, on our computer screens, essentially from the top left to the bottom right as you look at the screen, indicating in red, what was the name of that road? How was it referred to in the area?

A. That's the Prijedor-Banja Luka road. The Banja Luka road, as it was called.

THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak into the microphone?

MR. KEEGAN:

Q. Mr. Semenovic, when you're giving your responses, could you please lean forward and speak into the microphone so that the interpreters can hear you.

A. The road that's indicated in red here is the Prijedor-Banja Luka road. Sometimes the local inhabitants called it the Banja Luka road or the blacktop road.

Q. Was there another road that was referred to as the Old Prijedor-Banja Luka road?

A. Yes. There was the old Prijedor-Banja Luka ⁵⁰⁹ road which goes through Kozarac, and then there is the turnoff here (indicated). I don't know if you can see it here.

Q. What's that area that you're pointing to now? What's that area called, that area? That area?

A. That's Donji Orlovci. That's the area which is inhabited by Serbs. And then you have Mujkanovici, that's the area with the Bosniak majority, and then it's Kozarusa further down the road.

Q. The Old Banja Luka-Prijedor road would be the road that's indicated in yellow which essentially follows the new Banja Luka road in red. Earlier you indicated the checkpoint at Orlovci that you had to stop at on your way to the meeting. Could you indicate where that was on the map, please?

A. It's here (indicated).

Q. Now, these local communes that you referred to, and we'll deal specifically with Trnopolje first, was that local commune made up of one ethnic group?

A. No.

Q. How many other groups were there in the local commune of Trnopolje?

A. Seventeen.

Q. Were there, however, in the area, local communes that were composed of only one ethnic group or ⁵¹⁰ by a vast majority of only one ethnic group?

A. There were.

Q. The actual town of Kozarac and the local communes immediately adjacent to it on the north side of the Banja Luka-Prijedor road, what was the majority ethnic group there?

A. Bosniak Muslims. They had the absolute majority.

Q. And the area of Omarska, the local commune of Omarska, what was the majority ethnic group there?

A. Serb population had the absolute majority.

Q. In the area that you refer to as Kozarusa that's indicated on the map, what was the majority ethnic group there?

A. Bosniak Muslim.

MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, would that be a convenient time before we move on to an area since it is so close to the break?

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Twenty minutes.

--- Recess taken at 10.58 a.m.

--- On resuming at 11.38 a.m.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Vucicevic, we've clarified matters with the registry concerning your request of Mr. Ostojic. And at their request, we've considered the matter again. We are prepared to grant him a right ⁵¹¹ of ordnance. But, of course, only him and only one legal assistant at a time. If you want legal assistants, their applications have to be made to the registry. If you want to apply for the right of audience for a legal assistant, then you must apply to this Trial Chamber. But, at the moment, we're prepared to grant an audience to Mr. Ostojic. But, of course, it must be understood that if he is going to cross-examine, only one cross-examination will be allowed per witness, as it were. You can't have two. MR. D'AMATO: Thank you very much, Your

Honour.

JUDGE MAY: I hope that clarifies matters. MR. D'AMATO: Your Honour, may I address one other point?

JUDGE MAY: Yes, of course. MR. D'AMATO: The Prosecutor on Friday and Saturday had provided us with a number of new documents which are in the process of translation, some of which have already been introduced in this trial. We would like to ask the Court for some kind of guidance with respect to the amount of time that we are allowed to prepare with documents. Originally we had 20 days. And I think the 20-day figure, while I am not asking for rigidity in that matter, at least betokens a ⁵¹² certain amount of latitude to the Defence to be able to understand, read, discuss these documents. But two or three days' notice with a weekend was very, very hard for us to put this defence together on that. And we would like to ask the Tribunal for some kind of guidance with respect to the future operations of the trial with respect to disclosure of documents.

JUDGE MAY: Well, I think speaking for myself, there should be prompt disclosure and adequate time for the Defence to prepare. It's the duty of the Prosecution to disclose all the documents, so there is such time to prepare.

Yes, Mr. Keegan.

MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour, we're clearly mindful of that. The question was to whether they had an objection. And if they object, that is an issue we take into consideration and we can certainly make the witness subject to recall and bring them back at a later time after the Defence has indicated they have had time to prepare.

MR. D'AMATO: We're mindful of the necessity to speed up the trial. Some of these documents were very short and we did put the weekend in work and so we're able to be here today and accommodate as much as possible. But I think, as a general matter, we would ⁵¹³ like that adequate time that you're talking about and I don't think a weekend is an adequate time.

MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, if I may? First off, none of the documents introduced thus far were turned over in the weekend. All of these documents were turned over either in January or April. My question today was with respect to the documents newly discovered, which I turned over the day after, in fact, the morning after we discovered them was, do you have an objection? They indicated they do, we'll take that into consideration and we can bring the witness subject to recall.

JUDGE MAY: Well, I think what we want to avoid is any unnecessary delay in the trial proceedings, which necessitated any delays necessitated by the Defence having had time to prepare. If you receive documents too late for you to prepare, then, of course, it's open to you to apply for time. But we will discourage any late disclosure.

MR. D'AMATO: Mr. Vucicevic, would like to add something out of his personal knowledge with the Prosecutor. Thank you.

MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honours, the document that you are talking about, it was not translated yet and, supposedly, the prosecutor said discovered this ⁵¹⁴ document among the batch of documents that were seized in Prijedor in December pursuant to this Trial Chamber warrant for such search and seizure. And some of the documents from the same batch were disclosed to us in April. And that, your order indicated that all the disclosures should be done 20 days before trial. And it's, indeed, somewhat unusual that a document from the same batch would surface only three days after the trial has started and two days before the witness will take the stand and talk about a document. That's basically what we are talking about, compliance with the orders. Thank you, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Keegan, if you would like to go on.

MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

Q. Mr. Semenovic, where did the first military attack occur in Prijedor?

A. In the area of Hambarine.

Q. And do you recall the date of that attack?

A. Yes, May 22nd, 1992.

Q. And where were you when that attack occurred?

A. In Trnopolje.

Q. How did you become aware of the attack?

A. The night prior to the attack, in the local ⁵¹⁵ commune, we heard on one of the equipment pieces of the TO on the -- with walkie-talkie, we heard that there was some shooting at the entrance into Hambarine. And that there is some kind of ultimatum issued concerning the return of the weapons, but we did not have any precise information. The next day we were able to hear the artillery shooting and see a large part of Hambarine burning. We saw smoke, significant smoke. And since the day was clear, we could very well see the smoke and hear the shooting.

Q. And in the ultimatums that you mentioned, what organ of the Serbian government in Prijedor was giving these ultimatums?

A. As far as I remember, it was the Crisis Staff headquarters that issued the ultimatum.

Q. Were you aware -- had you been made aware prior to this attack of where artillery had been positioned in the Municipality of Prijedor?

A. Yes, yes, we knew that quite well in advance of the attack.

Q. And where were some of those areas that artillery had been positioned?

A. It was in the area of Urije, Brezicani, above the Village of Gornja Puharska. In Kozara, in two areas of Kozara. In Tomasica. And somewhere in the ⁵¹⁶ area of Omarska.

Q. What area in Kozara, you mentioned two areas in Kozara, what areas are you referring to?

A. In Benkovac and somewhere above the quarry. Benkovac is in the area of Mrakovica.

Q. And the other area is a quarry, by that you mean a rock quarry?

A. Yes, this is where they obtained the stone.

Q. Based on my prior experience, Your Honour, I just want to make sure the record is clear for when they produce the transcript.

Where was the next area of attack in Prijedor?

A. Kozarac.

Q. And what was the date of that attack?

A. Two days after the attack on Hambarine, May 24th, 1992, in the early afternoon, as far as I remember, it was around 12.30, one o'clock in the afternoon.

Q. What, if any, demands were made prior to the attack?

A. They issued the ultimatum on surrender. I wasn't able to hear it, but this is what people heard on the radio stations. And in the police in Kozarac -- Serbian authorities called the police in Kozarac and ⁵¹⁷ talked to the chief of police and officially issued the ultimatum to them.

Q. You say "surrender," what type of surrender?

A. They requested the Territorial Defence to surrender and also the police force. And also the people that they knew were armed.

Q. Now, earlier in your testimony you had mentioned observing instances where Serbian families had left their homes during the evening and come back during the day and you indicated that this occurred on several occasions, or a number of occasions.

A. Yes.

Q. What, if any, unusual movement by Serbian civilians did you notice prior to the attack on Kozarac?

A. Yes, we observed how the Serb population withdrew completely from those mixed areas and they withdrew into the depth of the territory, into the Serb territory. And it was only the grown men that remained.

Q. In the area of Trnopolje, in the local communes that made up Trnopolje, did every home have a telephone?

A. No. The telephone lines were completely abolished and only in one house there was a telephone ⁵¹⁸ link. And that was, of course, a private house. And people couldn't understand how come in just one house the telephone was functioning, but it was functioning at that house.

Q. Did everyone in the local commune have a car?

A. No.

Q. Where were you when the attack on Kozarac started?

A. In the local commune in Trnopolje.

Q. What did you do after the attack began?

A. I started walking towards Kozarac because we didn't have the radio connection to Kozarac, so somebody had to go and see what needs to be done out there, the field, because we could hear the shooting, the artillery shooting towards the Bosniak houses. And I started towards -- there were not enough -- there were several vehicles, but we didn't have enough fuel, so I started on the bicycle.

Q. And did you make it into Kozarac?

A. No. I managed to reach the area above Hrnici and to be more precise, I managed to reach Suhi Brod.

Q. And why did you stop there?

A. It wasn't possible to go on because the shells, the area where I was, was being shelled ⁵¹⁹ constantly and one couldn't go on because of the shelling.

Q. Based on your experience in your artillery in the JNA, what types of weapons was it that were firing the shells which were falling on Kozarac?

A. I --

MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, I object to this question because this witness hadn't been qualified as a military expert. He has only testified that he has served in the artillery unit. The question is asking him, based on the type of a fire that's obviously heard, to determine what kind of weapons are firing.

JUDGE MAY: He was in the artillery, he can answer the question. Whether the answer has any weight is for us to determine.

MR. VUCICEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

MR. KEEGAN: You can answer the question, Mr. Semenovic. Mr. Semenovic.

THE WITNESS: Yes, I could say that there were several different types of artillery that were being fired. I saw the shelling. I saw the explosions and I heard the detonations of the shells that were falling on Kozarac and the area around Kozarac. And I also heard the explosions of the shells being fired. This came from the area of Urije and I think that was ⁵²⁰ the long-range artillery. The Howitzers. And I could tell that because the explosions were magnificent. I also noticed that the shells were coming from Kozara area. I noticed from Orlovci, I noticed that the shells of smaller calibre, which were probably Howitzers, mortars of smaller calibre were coming from Orlovci and the shells were falling around Kozarac too.

From Omarska, I heard a very, very loud firing and which indicated that it was the heavy artillery that was being fired in that area. We expected from that that Kozarac and Trnopolje would be fired at from the area of Tomasica because we knew before that there were guns there facing Kozarac, however, there was no fire from Tomasica area.

MR. KEEGAN:

Q. How intensive was the shelling during that period?

A. It took place the whole day that day and almost the whole night with small breaks and then the next day.

The next day there was firing from Tremblans (Phon) as well, from the area of Trnopolje where the Serbian villages were mostly in the area of Sivci, where there were already groups of people that were ⁵²¹ gathering there, the groups of civilian inhabitants were gathering there.

Q. Excuse me, Mr. Semenovic. Your Honour, I note in the record that the interpreters repeated the Serbo-Croatian word that the witness used, Tremblans?

THE INTERPRETER: Should be rifle launched grenades.

MR. KEEGAN: Thank you.

Q. Now, the -- how many days did the shelling go on for, Mr. Semenovic?

A. Two days.

Q. And what occurred after the shelling lifted?

A. After the shelling ceased, Serbian forces entered from the direction of Prijedor into Kozarac and burned the whole area of Kozarac up until the middle section of Kozarac. I observed that from about from the distance of two and a half kilometres.

Q. Were there movements by parts of the population toward Trnopolje?

A. Yes. The people from Kozara who tried to flee into Kozara and people that left their basements once the shelling stopped, they all started moving toward Trnopolje and the inhabitants, the complete inhabitants of -- the complete population of Trnopolje with all the necessities, they started walking and ⁵²² going on the tractors towards Kozara. There was no coordination. In these groups of people -- these two groups met somewhere halfway in the area, of the villages of Sivci, Mujkanovici, Suhi Brod. A huge number of people were present. Those that came from above because they had information that the Serbs broadcast on the radio that those who are not armed and who are not guilty, can come down to Trnopolje and they will be safe there. That only the extremists would be the ones who would be arrested. And the population just needed to go away because the extremists were dangerous for Muslims. And once everything stopped, the population would be able to go back into their houses. And a lot of people believed what they heard on the radio and this is why they started moving towards Trnopolje.

The Serbs took several Muslim Bosniaks into the radio stations to urge people to go into Trnopolje. I heard that Hilmija Nukic, who lived in Trnopolje was the one who urged the population to go to Trnopolje, together with the Crisis Staff. And I also heard that some people in Prijedor were forced to do the same.

Q. Now, you referred to Kozara as the location where people were heading from Trnopolje. Can you ⁵²³ explain briefly to the Trial Chamber what Kozara is?

A. Kozara is a mountain above Kozarac.

Q. Now, did you see what happened to any of the villages in the area, any of the particular villages in the area?

A. Yes, I saw that part of Kozarac, actually almost the whole Kozarac was almost completely burned. There was an incredible fire because it was, it was put on fire within a very short time and they started putting it on fire sometime in the afternoon around 5.00 p.m. And around eight or nine that evening, almost all of that area was burning simultaneously. It was terrible to watch. There was some occasional shooting, but not a lot of shooting, just this huge fire. Several people managed to flee when the Serbian army entered that area. And they told us how they did that. They throw some kind of bombs into the houses and then the houses start burning and burn out very quickly. And some houses where they thought there was some people in there, they would throw the bomb first, the plaine bomb. And then the bomb that puts the house on fire, but in that they basically didn't leave any house untouched. They burned every house.

Q. The fires that you saw beginning in the area, can you tell from what direction the fire started? ⁵²⁴ What side of the village? What area was it adjacent to?

A. From Mujkanovici and then Kozarusa was burning up until the mid section of Kozarac. So from the section of Prijedor from the direction of the checkpoint, the Serb forces checkpoint, up until Kozarac, that whole area was put on fire. And the area that I mentioned, it burned out completely within a very short period of time, the whole village was burning. It was a horrible sight.

Q. You mentioned that there had been shooting going on during this time as well, was any of the fire directed toward the civilians, the people who were fleeing the village?

A. Certainly, in Kozarusa, those people that managed to flee and join the other group down there, they started mentioning the people that were shot. They gave an example of Jasim Jelkic. He was very old, he couldn't run away and he was shot. And also some that were fleeing were being shot at some and some were killed and some managed to escape.

Q. Did you become aware of when the camp in the Trnopolje area opened?

A. Yes, I learned of that a few days after the fact. ⁵²⁵

Q. In the days following the attack, what did you do?

A. When these groups of civilians that I mentioned joined, due to shelling and to firing and burning of the villages in Kozarac, people had no other choice but to walk towards Trnopolje where houses were not being fired and where there were non-firing going on. At the same time Serb army in certain areas started entering the civilian groups, giving the explanation that they were looking for extremists. However, I was one of those extremists that they were looking for and I had to hide.

Q. How long did you remain in hiding?

A. I was hiding by myself in one area for two days, and then a woman called me and she told me that I could hide in her house because her house was in a safe place because it was among the houses of the Ukrainians, non-Serb population, so this is why those houses would not be searched.

Q. For how long did you remain in hiding total? Until what day?

A. In that house, or around that house, I remained for a month. After that, I was hiding by myself because those houses were cleansed as well and that area was cleansed as well. This woman was taken ⁵²⁶ towards Trnopolje together with her children, and I remained by myself there alone. There were also several of my acquaintances there; however, I didn't dare be with them because we were afraid that, should we be arrested by Serb forces, they would be shot because I had a political position prior to this and they were looking for me.

In the end, those people left, and I remained completely alone.

Q. Can you name the hamlets or villages which you went through or in the area during the time that you were in hiding?

A. Yes. I was in Hrnici, Suhi Brod, Gornji Sivci, Sivci, Mujkanovici, Kenjari, and lastly, Trnopolje.

Q. During the time that you were in hiding in the area of Sivci, did military forces come into that area and seize the population?

A. Yes, yes. They were undertaking those actions under the explanation that they were looking for extremists; however, every time they passed through the hamlet, they would take out all of the inhabitants, and while doing that, they would kill some people. They would take the men towards Kozarac or Trnopolje, I didn't know exactly where they were being taken, but I ⁵²⁷ noticed that they were being taken either towards Kozarac or into the direction of Trnopolje.

Q. What was the ethnic group of the people living in that village?

A. Bosniak Muslims and a small number of Ukrainians.

Q. Were you able to determine what ethnic group that the military forces who were attacking that village were members of?

A. Yes. Those were Serb forces.

Q. How were you able to tell that?

A. I could conclude that based on the insignia. I watched them from a short distance, I was hiding either in the grass or in the bushes by the road, and I also knew it because one of the Ukrainians that I have mentioned, in order not to be shot, he was forced to put on the uniform and become a member of the Serbian army. However, he asked for permission to stand guard in the area around his house and it was accepted. This woman that offered to hide me in her house, in her property, he gave her the information that he was able to acquire from other soldiers.

Q. Can you describe the treatment of the people as they were being rounded up by these forces in the village of Sivci? ⁵²⁸

A. Well, it wasn't actually the rounding-up. They always told the inhabitants, "You're safe. We just want to arrest the extremists." And then suddenly it would happen that the village would be surrounded on all sides by the troops; that would always be without any prior notice. I was able to observe that on two occasions, first when they attacked Sivci and then Mujkanovici and Hrnici, so three times. They would surround the village from all sides and then they would open fire in a synchronised manner, and all those people who attempted to flee would go back, and also the people from other areas would flee in the opposite direction, and in the course of that shooting, they would always invariably kill a few people. Then they gathered the women and children in one location and male adults would be taken away in groups. On the main road, they had vehicles parked, vans, and in the course of the ethnic cleansing of Sivci, there was also a small bus. Some groups were taken away on foot and some were put on those vehicles and transported in vehicles, and while they were transported along the road, I wasn't able to flee very far from the road so I was hiding in the hedges, and thus I was able to observe a large group being taken from the village of Mujkanovici. They were taken to ⁵²⁹ Kozarac, they were beaten along the way. Some people fell down and the others had to pick them up. Some were singing Serbian songs and they were forced to do so and they were laughing at them, telling them, "You don't know those songs." They were beaten again, lined up, ordered to run, then to go slower. All the while, there was shooting.

Later on I heard from the people who observed these events, further down the road to Kozarac, that some of the people from those groups were shot by the road. I did not see that personally, but people who did see it confirmed that fact.

Q. Now, these forces involved in the attack, were you able to tell where any of those forces were from?

A. Yes. In the course of the cleansing of the village of Kenjari, after the infantry that had rounded up or gathered up the population and took it away, there was also an APC, armoured personnel carrier, going from Trnopolje towards Kozarac, and it passed through Gornji Sivci. That's next to Kenjari. There was a Serbian flag on the APC. On the APC itself, there were quite a few soldiers sitting on top of that APC, and there was a group walking immediately behind it. They had the insignia, two or three types of ⁵³⁰ insignia: The police of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, there was the JNA insignia, and also some insignia I hadn't seen until that time.

Over the next few days, when they were taking away the people from the village of Mujkanovici, I was able to observe from an abandoned house that group, and I could hear the discussion that they had. I don't mean the people who took away the captured men but the group of soldiers who walked through the village afterwards. I saw a mixed group. Some of them had the full uniform on, some wore jeans and military-type shirt, there were people who were younger, some were older, and I listened to a conversation which to me was strange at the time.

One of the soldiers told another that, "This was really great, that it's better for him to come here and to be engaged in combat for two days than to work for a month in Banja Luka," which is where he lived and worked. He was telling that to another soldier who spoke with a pure Akkadian accent. I heard two soldiers speaking the Akkadian accent in that group of soldiers who were walking down the road.

Q. Mr. Semenovic, what does the Akkadian accent mean? What do you mean by that? What does that signify? ⁵³¹

A. It's the accent of people from Serbia. This is how the language is spoken in Serbia, and it's different from the dialect in Bosnia, it's an obvious difference, and people who live in the area are able to tell the difference.

Q. Did you recognise whether any of the forces were from the local area, that is, the Prijedor area?

A. Yes. Yes, I was.

Q. As it got closer to the time where you went into Trnopolje camp, did the nature of the attacks change in the villages?

A. Yes. The villages were completely depopulated. People were taken away; women and children were in Trnopolje and also some of the men. The other men were taken to camps. The villages were completely abandoned. Some were burnt, some were not. And then the looting by the soldiers began en masse. They took away everything they could take away, and I was also able to observe that when I was hiding in the area. First they would take away the most valuable items, electronic devices, TV sets, then refrigerators, cookers. In the end, they would also take the wood in front of the house, electric cables from the walls, light fixtures.

Every time when they would approach the ⁵³² house, they opened fire on the house. Since I was hiding, at first I thought that they were opening fire on people who were hiding in the houses, and then, later on, I realised that they were actually communicating by firing.

The looting went on in the entire area. They parked the cars in which they arrived near the houses or in front of the houses, they would load on the goods, and then they would drive away. This lasted for four or five days.

After that, there were groups of soldiers who also did that, and I was able to observe that there would be groups who would only pick up cookers. They entered each and every house, and if there was a cooker in there, then they would take it away. Then there was a group that was collecting electrical cookers and refrigerators and also the water heaters. Later on, there was a group that gathered cattle.

Since at that time I slept in a large hedge which was very close to the military checkpoint, I felt that they would be least likely to look for me so close to the place where they were. I was able to see a place where they stockpiled the goods that they collected. Approximately every 24 hours, a large truck would arrive, and they would load the goods onto the ⁵³³ truck and took it away towards Kozarac. Then they would be collecting items for another two days and then the truck would arrive again.

I did not observe individual soldiers do any looting in that period anymore.

Q. Thereafter did you move towards Trnopolje?

A. Yes. I was thinking whether I should go towards the Kozara and maybe try to escape that way or maybe towards the Grmec Mountain. And then I concluded that the route to Grmec was perhaps a bit easier, although it was longer, because on the Kozara, especially on the side facing Croatia, there were a lot of soldiers and minefields. That was because of the war in Croatia. And also because they spoke on the radio that there were minefields laid on Kozara in order to prevent extremists from fleeing that way. So I set off towards Grmec.

The terrain that I was most familiar with was the area where I lived, Trnopolje. From that place where I was hiding, it took me 24 hours to pass the two kilometres because I didn't know where the soldiers were, where the guards were located. I was able to -- to my own property, the land which is my own property, that's called Rosulje, it's a slightly elevated area near the centre of Trnopolje where the local commune ⁵³⁴ building was and where the camp was at the time. I arrived there around 3.00 a.m., just before dawn, and I decided to remain there in hiding for that day and to see how I could pass Trnopolje because I knew that the security was very tight there. I couldn't go to the left because there were the Serbian villages to the left of Trnopolje, and to the right, I did not know the terrain, and it was also adjacent to Serbian villages.

So I observed from the hill the camp, it was about 500 metres away from me, and I observed it throughout the day until the evening. In the evening, I observed where the guards were and how I would be able to pass through this area. I saw that they changed shifts every two hours, and I observed which path they took around the camp.

Q. Now, the next day, what did you see in the area of the camp?

A. From that distance, I was able to see the camp and the people, a large number of people. They all walked very slowly and they were stooped. I wasn't able to hear their voices because the distance was too large.

I also noticed that some buses and trucks arrived at Trnopolje from the direction of Prijedor. I ⁵³⁵ was able to go down into a cornfield and I was able to see that there were men on the buses, and they held their hands behind their backs and their heads were bent down. Those buses were full.

I also saw some empty trucks, trailer trucks, and also some empty buses arrive at Trnopolje. I thought that maybe they were preparing to evacuate the whole camp because we did have some information from the Serbian radio that the Red Cross would evacuate everybody and that everybody would go to the Muslim territory, as they called it.

From the place where I observed the goings on, I realised that I could go closer, get closer. To the left of the area from my observation point, behind the houses, there is a small wood, a cache of wood, and there were two cornfields, and then there was the area where the guards patrolled; and I concluded that maybe during the night, I would be able to cross through the cornfield and through the woods and to hide there at the edge and to see what was going on, because I realised that if I could wait for the evacuation, maybe I could also infiltrate into the convoy, or at least to try. It seemed like a safer option than to go to Grmec. I did not have any food or anything, it was over 30 kilometres on mountainous terrain. So that was ⁵³⁶ my decision.

The next evening, I managed to get to that point.

Q. How did you actually get into the camp?

A. When I reached that clearing, it was early morning and there was a thick fog. That was maybe 70 metres away from the wire of the camp. They couldn't see me there. I saw that there was complete chaos in there. I had thought that there would be guards, but there were women, children, elderly people. I saw that some people were packing their bags.

I also noticed that the clearing that I was telling you about, those were two fields of arable land, and there was a border of maybe about a metre between those two fields and there was a rather deep ditch between them, and I realised that maybe I would be able to crawl along that ditch and get immediately next to the wire because I saw a lot of people relieving themselves next to the wire fence. I realised that this was, in fact, the latrine. And also that area below the wire fence was overgrown with raspberries, and I realised that they would not be able to see me. If I couldn't get in touch with those people and if I realised that I couldn't get inside and join them and that the ⁵³⁷ situation was not as chaotic as it had seemed to me, I thought that I would either sleep in the raspberry bushes and then go back or maybe I could go back immediately, if I deemed it possible.

When I got to the wire fence, I realised that I was right, and I also recognised some of my friends.

Q. So did you get in through the wire?

A. Yes. I took off my trousers - I have to say that - I jumped through the wire fence, and I pretended that I was also relieving myself, just like all the other people there.

I observed the area for about five minutes and I noticed some of my friends. And then, just like everybody around me, I pulled up my trousers, and I approached the first person that I knew and I asked what was happening and if it was possible for me to hide here. He said that they were preparing to evacuate the camp and to take everybody to Gracnica and that it would be possible for me to hide, but I had to go under a tractor or in an area at the corner of two buildings. He said that it was a safe area but that I would have to hide underneath a blanket.

Q. Did they indicate whether or not the Serbian forces had been looking for you?

A. Yes. I asked him if anybody was looking for ⁵³⁸ me. He said, "They are not looking for you. They called out your name a couple of times, but later they said that your corpse had been found and recognised by some soldiers in Kozarac." So they stopped looking for me. They hadn't been looking for me for about a month. That's what my friend Adem explained to me.

Q. For how long did you remain in the Trnopolje camp?

A. Three days and three nights. On the third night, around 2.00 a.m., I left again.

Q. Why did you leave the camp?

A. I left because I was in a group of people from Kamicani, their last name is Foric; they are all related to each other. On that day, just before I left, they were called out and taken away, and then we heard shooting, two bursts and six single shots. The next day, the camp administration called a man to bury six bodies and, according to his description, it turned out that these were the Foric men. At first I thought that maybe they had been shot because of me, but one of the group who had survived told me that it had nothing to do with me. He also reminded me that this soldier who had arrived a day before to say hello to the Foric brothers, to the Foric men, he took them away to kill them, and I was there ⁵³⁹ when this happened, but I had my back turned on that soldier.

He came and he said hello in a peaceful way. He said, "Well, guys, when are we going to play football? What's happening?" They were quiet and then he turned around and left. One of the lads then clutched his stomach and he said, "It's all over." I asked him, "Why is it all over?" And he just repeated, "It's all over." And that was the end of that incident.

That night, the Serb police came, they called out "Zilho Foric," one of the six relatives. They talked to him behind the tractor for several minutes; then he came back and he called his brother and four relatives, told them to get up and to put on their shoes and to accompany him. That's how they were taken away.

Q. For how long did you leave the camp?

A. Two or three days.

Q. Why did you return to the camp?

A. I returned on the third day. I had an arrangement with one of my acquaintances from the village of Kamicani. He was supposed to leave a message for me and to bring me some food because I did not have anything to eat. I explained to him how I got ⁵⁴⁰ out, and he said that he would take the same route. After two days, he did not appear, but on that morning, I saw six large buses that arrived in Trnopolje empty and several trailer trucks. They were all empty. And they had come from the direction of Prijedor. I realised that they were there to evacuate the people, to transfer them to Gracnica, as the rumour went, and that that was reason why my friend could not get out, because he didn't want to miss his chance. I also realised that this was a good opportunity for me.

Q. So did you re-enter the camp?

A. Yes. Yes, in the same manner, I re-entered the camp.

Q. What did you discover when you re-entered the camp?

A. When I re-entered the camp, I saw my friend, Adem Trnjanin. He noticed me because I was at the same spot where I had been before. He was crying. He just kept saying, "It's all over. They learned that you had been here. The 15 of us who contacted you, we were all interrogated, some were beaten, and we were given the ultimatum, 48 hours to tell them where you were." And that ultimatum was expiring at that time. I was there in the early morning, and at 10.00 or 11.00, that ⁵⁴¹ deadline expired.

Q. So what did you decide to do?

A. I did not have any choice. I could have tried to escape to save my own life, but in that case, the 15 of them would have been shot. I did not ponder that. I took off my watch, gave it to a friend of mine. I wanted him to give it to my family if he survived. The 50 German marks that I had in my pocket I gave to another friend, and I told Adem to go and fetch the captain, the chief of the camp, of the camp guards, of the military guards who were there. So Adem went to fetch the captain, came back with him.

Q. Where were you taken by this captain?

A. He took me to a room that was across from the school, that was the room where the camp administration was. Some officers, military officers, were in there, and when this military officer took me to that house, Mr. Slobodan Kuruzovic, who I recognised, was getting out. I knew him from before the war. He was walking towards me. And there were also several soldiers. Some were running.

Some of them punched me a couple of times, and Kuruzovic said that they should stop because there would be information coming from me. And then they ⁵⁴² stopped. And he said, "No, this is not Semenovic. I know Semenovic." I said, "Yes, that's me." And then he recognised my voice.

Later he asked me where my coat was, where my tie was. He said, "Look at you. You're so dirty." So they took me to their command where I was interrogated for a while, but I was not beaten.

Q. Where were you taken then?

A. They handcuffed me and took me out of the room. They put me into a Mercedes which was parked there, it was a green Mercedes. A soldier sat next to me in the back. He was one of the two twin brothers who were in Trnopolje. One of them sat in the back next to me, and in the front, in the driver's seat, was the officer who took me to Kuruzovic, and in the passenger seat, there was an employee who used to work for a friend of mine at the veterinary station. I think his name was Brane Beric. He asked me, "Where is your friend?" He asked that in an ironical matter. He meant his erstwhile employer, boss, Sejad Sivac, who was a friend of mine. So they took me to Prijedor, on the Trnopolje-Prijedor road, next to the railway line.

Q. Where did they take you to? Where did you finally go?

A. First they took me to Keraterm. Across the ⁵⁴³ road from Keraterm, there was some kind of administrative building of a company. I don't recall which company it was. At that time, this was where the military police were located. This is what was written on the building.

Across the road, I saw the Keraterm factory and a large number of camp inmates in there, in the factory compound.

We remained in the car for maybe ten or fifteen minutes. I took the opportunity -- this young soldier remained with me in the car, and the two who were in the front seats, they went to the military police building. Since this soldier at one point asked me, I quote, "Well, Mevludin, how come -- you are a member of parliament. How come you lived in such a bad house, a house in a bad condition?" My house was very small and rather old, and I said, "Well, this is what you get for living honestly."

And then I realised that maybe this was a good opportunity for me to ask him what was going to happen. So I asked him that question. I simply said, "Can you tell me, will they kill me immediately or later on? What's the procedure? How is it done?"

Q. What did he respond?

A. And then he said, "It doesn't necessarily ⁵⁴⁴ mean that you will be killed. It depends on what you will tell them." I asked him, "What would be the best thing for me to say?" And then he said, "I don't know. May Allah help you." And that was the end of the conversation.

Q. Where were you taken from that location?

A. The two persons, that captain or the lieutenant, I am not sure of his rank, and Mr. Beric, took me from the military police building to the building of the SUP, the building of the military affairs in Prijedor to a room upstairs to an office there.

Q. Were you interrogated there?

A. There was a younger gentleman there. I realised that he was a police officer, in fact. Before the war he was a student and sometimes we had a drink together before the war because he was a boyfriend of a schoolmate of mine. When he started the interrogation, he was mocking me. He said, how come that you are so dirty? He was being very ironical, wearing a tie. Is that how an MP should look? And then at one point a soldier entered the room, he was a large man, blonde. He simply approached me, started to laugh and started hitting me. He beat me for a while and then he took a police baton and started hitting me over the back. ⁵⁴⁵ Then he started hitting me on the head and then, after a couple of blows, I fell down. Then he took out my belt from my pants, put it around my neck and pulled me up by the belt and he said the MP, member of parliament should have a tie. And he pulled me by the belt to another room. A police officer and a civilian were in that room, that later sat at the desk. And this is where they started the interrogation. And they also wrote down the interrogation. Right at the start they said, let's make one thing clear, you're a fundamentalist and we know it. You can say whatever you want, but your father was a fundamentalist.

Q. Did they have anything that they indicated that there was proof that you were a fundamentalist?

A. Yes, they said we have evidence. And in front of them they had a box, a shoe box, in which was my working diary and also a magazine, my father's magazine. My father died before the war. He was a priest or Imam Hodi as we say. And as Imam Hodi, of course, he was a subscriber to religious magazines. This is what he used in his work.

And the police in my house, when they searched the house, they took one of those magazines. It was called, "Islamic Thought." And that magazine ⁵⁴⁶ was in police, on the police office, on the desk, and that was the proof that I was a fundamentalist and so was my father. And also there was a tape from the founding meeting of the SDA in Dubica and those were the two pieces of evidence that they had. I also saw that that magazine was three or four years old, although there were several of those that were just one year old. But in our house, we had a lot of those magazines and they didn't even try to find a fresher one, they just took the first one that they came across and they used it as evidence.

JUDGE MAY: Well, Mr. Keegan, it's after half past.

MR. KEEGAN: Yes.

JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn now. Five past two.

⁵⁴⁷

--- Luncheon recess taken at 12.35 p.m.

--- On resuming at 2.08 p.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Keegan.

MR. KEEGAN: Thank you, Your Honour.

Q. Mr. Semenovic, did you know the ethnic group of the policeman who interrogated and beat you?

A. I did, they were Serbian ethnic background.

Q. Did you know any of them, were any of them local men?

A. Yes, I did know two of them. I also knew the policeman that with was present while the interrogation was taking place. I was interrogated by the inspector.

Q. And the others who you did not personally know, how is that you were able to identify their ethnic background?

A. Yes, they were calling each other. The one that was beating me, they called him Dragan, if I can remember correctly. The one that was in the car when I was taken to Prijedor, I knew him, I met him through my friends because he was a director to one of my friends. And I also knew that the chief of the guards in Trnopolje camp was called Slavko. I don't know his last name.

Q. Now, after the interrogation, where were you ⁵⁴⁸ taken?

A. After the interrogation, I was taken to the prison cell.

Q. Was there anything about the condition of the cell that indicated to you what had happened to prisoners who had been in there before you?

A. Yes, there was a lot of blood on the floor and on the walls. And I remember that there was a big bloody stain above the metal bed that took about two-thirds of the room. From the entrance to the right, on the right wall there was a spot, a bloody spot on the wall, maybe one metre wide. A huge bloody spot. And there was part of the wall that gave in. The bloody spot was descending as if somebody was draining the blood downwards. I suppose that somebody was shot from a close proximity and this bloody spot was there on the wall. And there was also a hole in the wall from the bullet. There was some blood on the floor and also the, the cover, the bed spread was, had several blood spots on it.

Q. Was there anyone in the cell when you were put in there?

A. Yes, four persons were in it, two men and two women.

Q. Did you know any of those people? ⁵⁴⁹

A. I did know one person, an acquaintance. But when I was -- when I was taken into the cell, I was beaten in front of the cell. I was thrown on the floor and then thrown inside. And I just lay on the floor for about half an hour on the concrete floor and I was quiet. And then after half an hour, these women said to the men, asked them to pick me up and put me on the bed. And then I started quietly talking to them and they told me that they were from Cela.

Q. And were you able to determine the ethnic group of the people who were in the cell with you?

A. Yes, they were Bosniak Muslims, both men and women that were in the cell. And they told me, the woman told me that some were arrested on the street and some in their houses and they were brought in without any reason or explanation.

Q. And what occurred to you after that?

A. After that, they took the men and women out of the cell and I remained there alone. I spent a night in the cell. And during the night, the guards were beating on the door several times saying that they would come in, saying that I would clean the bedroom, the dormitory of the military police, that was across from there; however, they did not open the door. And the next morning, the police came in and they took me ⁵⁵⁰ out of the cell. They took me again through the building of the Internal Ministry into the court yard where there was a bus, a parked bus. When I was going through the hallway of the building of the Interior Ministry, I saw a gentleman, Simo Miskovic that I knew from before. I tried to catch his glance and perhaps ask him something, however, he turned his head the other way when he saw me. And the policeman brought me to the bus and told me to enter the bus and to sit down.

Q. And what was Simo Miskovic's position at that time?

A. He was President of the Serbian Democratic Party in Prijedor.

Q. And how was it that you were being led through the building? By what means?

A. I was tied with a belt around my neck and I was taken, you know, they were pulling the belt and I couldn't walk straight, I couldn't straighten up, I was all bent down and looking downwards. They were laughing and saying: "Move away. We're leading the member of the parliament here." And just prior, before we entered the bus, they took the belt off and told me, get in.

Q. What type of uniforms were the individuals ⁵⁵¹ wearing who were involved in your interrogation, in your detention in the SUP and taking you out of the SUP?

A. The persons who took me into SUP and took me out wore the uniforms of the special military police. And some -- and also the people that beat me also had military or police uniforms. And one of the persons that interrogated me, had a classic police uniform, the blue colour uniform.

Q. Can you describe what the special police -- excuse me, what the special police military uniform looks like?

A. They were camouflage uniforms, however, they were not green as usual. They had some kind of a purplish, light purplish colour. They were slightly different, slightly darker than regular military camouflage uniforms.

Q. Now, when you, after you were put on the bus, where were you taken?

A. Omarska.

Q. And when you arrived at the Omarska camp, where were you first taken?

A. I was first taken into the administrative building. And up there, upstairs, they recorded my name in some kind of a record book and then they took ⁵⁵² me out of the administrative building and escorted me to a small house that was across from the administrative building.

Q. How long of a period of time did you spend totally in Omarska camp?

A. I think about eight or nine days.

Q. Your Honour, I am now going to ask the witness to identify the structures on the model that's before him. I believe he may need to change head sets to have on the longer cord.

Mr. Semenovic, if you could come around the end of the table, so that the judges can see where you're pointing, please. This is Omarska camp, it was Exhibit No. 130 in the Tadic trial. It would have to be now given the next number in order. P-14, I believe. 40, excuse me.

THE REGISTRAR: 40, that's correct.

MR. KEEGAN: Mr. Semenovic, you're going to need to speak into one of the microphones.

THE WITNESS: Okay.

MR. KEEGAN:

Q. Mr. Semenovic, if you could first identify which building there is the administration building?

A. This is the administration building, this here is the administration building in Omarska. ⁵⁵³

Q. And what is the structure on the other side of that building then?

A. This is the former restaurant of the mining complex, the cafeteria in which the workers that worked in the mine ate. This is the entrance into the administration building, you enter here and they have a spiral staircase that goes up.

Q. And later on, you'll be referring to in your evidence the glass house, can you point out the area where the glass house is to the Trial Chamber, please?

A. The glass house is this part here. So it is sort of a link between the administrative building and the restaurant. And partly it is without roof. This part here.

Q. And which of the structures was referred to as the hangar building?

A. These are hangars, this large facility here.

Q. And the white house?

A. The white house is this one.

Q. And where is the area known as the Pista?

A. This is Pista. This part and this part.

Q. Thank you, Mr. Semenovic, you may return to your seat. I should state, Your Honour, we will be attempting now to reproduce, make photographs of each of the buildings, that we would attempt to use for ⁵⁵⁴ witnesses. I indicated this earlier in conversation to the defence. Based on our experience in Tadic, it can get difficult to use the model, but the model will be available, of course, any time for the Trial Chamber or the Defence, if necessary.

All right, you indicated that when you first arrived at the camp you were first taken into the administrative building and your name was logged in. Where were you taken from there?

A. I was taken into the white house after that.

Q. And what happened to you once you were in the white house?

A. They beat me.

Q. Which room in the white house were you put into?

A. Into the room on the left side, when you enter the first room on the left. The window of that room faced the Pista.

Q. The men who beat you, did they say anything to you as they were beating you?

A. Yes.

Q. What did they say?

A. First a civilian entered without the uniform, that person beat me and saying, "You were a member of the parliament." And after that person, another ⁵⁵⁵ soldier walked in, he beat me and saying, "Did you talk on TV, did you say something against the Serbian army on television? You are a member of the parliament." And then the next person again did the same. They were about a total of five of them. One civilian and four uniformed persons, but one by one. They didn't enter together, they entered one by one.

Q. Did you know any of these people?

A. I did know some from passing by, from before. And the person that was the civilian, I met in the following days in the glass house.

Q. Did you know the ethnic group of those individuals? Could you determine the ethnic group of those individuals?

A. The first person that was civilian was Bosniak Muslim. And the uniformed men were Serbian ethnic background.

Q. Now, what did these individuals beat you with? Did they use any kinds of weapons or tools?

A. Hands and batons and with their feet, with their boots. One had a baton. It was actually a metal stick and then a transparent water pipe, plastic was on that stick and then this is what he used to beat me. He was a shortish man with moustache, fat.

Q. What type of injuries did you suffer as a ⁵⁵⁶ result of the beating?

A. I fell down and then as I fell down, when I was on the floor, I was hit with a boot into the face by a soldier. I was completely covered with blood, very soon after that the blood was coming out of my mouth and nose. And then they stopped beating me and they called over an old man and asked him to clean me up. And he cleaned me with my clothes that I had on and that I had to take off at their, following their orders.

Q. And did they say anything about what was going to happen to you next?

A. After that, police came in and they took me towards the administration building again. And as we were exiting the white house and on our way to the administration building, soldiers started running towards me from various areas and they started beating me. But the policeman that was behind me, told them, "We've been told not to beat him while he is interrogated. You will have your chance later on." And then they left. They didn't beat me anymore and I was taken to the administration building upstairs again, into an office on the right side, I think it with was a third room on the right side.

Q. Did you know the man who was to interrogate ⁵⁵⁷ you, did you know who he was?

A. Yes, I knew him by sight. And I also saw him immediately prior to that on the bus that took me from Prijedor to Omarska. He sat in front of me, about three or four seats in front of me. Occasionally he would turn back. And he was an old man, a civilian. Occasionally he would turn back and when I saw him in that office room, I recognised him as the man from the bus. But at that point he already had an uniform on him.

Q. What kind of uniform was he wearing?

A. A military one.

Q. And what was his name?

A. Dragan Radakovic.

Q. Do you know what he did before the war?

A. Yes, I know. He used to be a director of the National Park, Kozara, Mrakovica. And later on during the interrogation, he confirmed that to me.

Q. And what did he ask you about when you were put in the room?

A. I was taken by policemen into that room. And immediately after them, a largely built man, policeman with a nickname Krkan entered and he stood there and Radakovic started interrogating me. And his first question was: "Have they beaten you?" That's what he ⁵⁵⁸ asked me. Then it was quiet and he repeated the question. And then I answered, "I don't know whether I should say that I have been beaten or not." And he said: "Why don't you say that you have been beaten. Look at you, you're all bloodied and your countryman beat you, didn't he?" And I answered, "Yes." And then he asked me, "Did somebody else beat you?" And I said, "I don't remember, because I fainted."

Q. What else then did he say during the interrogation?

A. He said afterwards, after this discussion, he said, "We are not interested in Prijedor. We are not interested in weapons. We know that you didn't have any. There was just a little bit of weapons and we know who had that. We're interested in Sarajevo. In Sarajevo", this is what he was saying as he was hitting the desk with his hand. And then he started questioning me about the people on leading positions in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Who did I saw last? Have I talked to any of these leaders? When that took place. Did I hear of any conversation between these leaders? What they were talking about. And he mostly insisted on questions concerning two Serb, high-placed officials, Miodrag Simovic, who was the Vice President of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and Miro Dragonovic (Phon). ⁵⁵⁹ They were still members of the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina. They had not left the government yet at that point. And this is probably why these people were so interested in them.

Q. What was Dragan Radakovic's ethnic back ground?

A. He is a Serb.

Q. Now, the Bosnian Muslim who came in first to beat you, do you recall what his name was?

A. His nickname was Besa, and I think his last name was Besic. The guards in the camp used him to make coffee. He would make coffee to them. He would clean their rooms. And often they joked with him. And as far as I could tell, they did not abuse him.

Q. Did he receive special treatment or special favours from the guards?

A. Yes, he was in the glass house. I know because I was taken into the same room the next day. And I had a conversation with this man called Besa. I pretended not to recognise him, but since his bed -- actually my bed was right next to his because his was the last in that line, when I came into the glass house and hen he saw me, sort of lying down, he bent over me and he asked me, "Did they beat you?"

Q. Were you beaten during the interrogation? ⁵⁶⁰

A. No.

Q. And how long did the interrogation last?

A. That day or the total?

Q. That day.

A. That day, it lasted, I believe around five hours.

Q. And how many days thereafter were you interrogated?

A. Six or seven days, I am not sure.

Q. And during the time that you were at Omarska, did media personnel visit the camp?

A. Yes. I think that that was the day before my last day when I came to the camp. I think maybe the 8th day. It was unexpected. We just noticed in the morning that all the officers put on new uniforms. That the guards had their weapons, arms, in their hands and not hanging on their shoulders. That everybody was clean, the weapons were cleaned. We noticed on Pista that the military vehicles drove in with a larger number of officers in them. We also heard some shooting, but we -- we didn't conclude that it was some kind of a war action because the officers were laughing at Pista and talking between themselves. And then all of a sudden, a group of journalists walked into the cafeteria, into this restaurant. There were several ⁵⁶¹ cameras that were recording, shooting everything around.

And we noticed that the group of prisoners who had their meal at that point, they ate very slowly. And prior to entering the cafeteria, they were ordered to eat slowly and they had five minutes to eat their meal -- no, five minutes, this time they had five minutes and normally they had two minutes to enter. And this time they were eating very slowly and we observed the journalists talking to some of the prisoners.

Q. Did the camp authorities approach you about giving interviews when the journalists were present in the camp?

A. Yes.

Q. And did you, in fact, give interviews to journalists in the camp?

A. Yes. Zivko Ecim, a local journalist from Prijedor came to tape me and the police called me from the glass house and took me upstairs again in the administrative building and they said, "You will be taped now. And if you are taped, maybe you will remain alive." And then a journalist that I remember from Prijedor came into the room and he said, "Mr. Semenovic, this is a chance for you to --" no, he said, ⁵⁶² "This is your chance to stay alive. You have to read this statement." He had a piece of paper with him.

Q. How many interviews in total did you give to Serb media?

A. Ecim filmed me twice and that day when the foreign journalists entered the camp, after they taped the cafeteria, the police came to the glass house, called me by name and took me upstairs to the administration building. And I saw all the journalists taping things down there and they brought me in front of the foreign journalists who refused to film me. I know that because the interpreter who was interpreting, that's how she put it. The police then took me to that same floor, to the lift further down the hall. There is a large hall in the administrative building and they told me to wait there and left a police officer to guard me. After a couple of minutes, some other officers came and some police officers too. And the team of journalists entered then. They were from the SRNA news agency. There was a journalist, a cameraman, and another person who was with the cameramen. In the meantime, this hall filled in with people. They probably wanted to observe me being filmed and being interviewed.

Q. Now, during your interrogations, was there a ⁵⁶³ statement eventually prepared for you to sign?

A. Yes, that's right.

Q. Did Mr. Radakovic ask you about other prisoners in the camp? For example, Medunjanin?

A. No, he did not question me about other prisoners in the camp, but he did mention some of them and asked me if I knew Anes Medunjanin. I said that I did know him. And then he said that he was a nice guy. That's what Radakovic said. He said, "I was surprised how much that guy knew about the Orthodox faith. He knows more about the Orthodox faith than I do about Islam and maybe even more than I know myself about the Orthodox faith. And I am amazed that an extremist such as his father, Becir Medunjanin could produce such a smart child." And he said "I will introduce you to Anes Medunjanin." And I said, "I did not know Anes personally because there is a big age difference. I knew his father." And then this conversation ended, this part of the conversation.

Q. During the interrogation, did he talk about the position that Serbs had in other areas of Bosnia or the difficulties they were encountering?

A. Yes. The second day of the interrogation, they mostly -- the questioning actually proceeded in this way: He talked and I kept quiet. He held those ⁵⁶⁴ long monologues and he would be speaking about things that had nothing to do with the war, about art. He said he had a degree from the Academy of Arts, that he was a sculptor. That he liked arts and poetry. And then he said to me, "This thing here is a hotel compared to how Serbs lived in some places where Muslims are in power." He said in Tuzla, "It's true hell for Serbs. All of them had been brought to the stadium. And the Muslim army, from the salty wells where the water, salty water is taken out to produce salt, they take the salty water out and they spray it on the grass in the stadium. And since it is very hot, it was in the summer, Serbs have to lick that salty water, which makes them even more thirsty and they die in great suffering."

Q. Could we now run or prepare the tape to run, which should be the next exhibit in order, No. 15 -- 41, excuse me. Be Exhibit 41, Your Honour. And if we could have these transcripts of the tape distributed and marked as Exhibit 42. No, the witness doesn't need one, thank you.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Keegan, what is this tape that we're going to see?

MR. KEEGAN: This tape has several segments on it, Your Honour. It had been previously provided to ⁵⁶⁵ the Defence. One including the Serbian interview of this witness in the Omarska camp. Could we run the first clip, please?

(Videotape played).

Q. Mr. Semenovic, have you had an opportunity to review this tape, which is Exhibit 41?

A. Yes, I saw it here at the Tribunal.

Q. And in this first part of the tape, is this a Serb press report which quotes Milomir Stakic as the mayor of Prijedor talking about the camps in Trnopolje and Omarska?

A. Yes.

Q. Could we proceed to the next segment, the next queue, please, it's 527.

(Videotape played).

Q. Mr. Semenovic, what is that that we're now seeing on the monitor?

A. What you can see now is the restaurant, the mining complex cafeteria.

Q. Is that the -- are those the prisoners eating the meal that you referred to earlier in your testimony?

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. If we could forward to 8 minutes, 30 seconds. ⁵⁶⁶

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Keegan, what is the purpose of this transcript that we're being given?

MR. KEEGAN: This is an actual transcript of the tape. Rather than have the witness repeat everything on the tape, we thought it would be far more expedient to simply provide the transcript of exactly what's on the tape. And simply have him identify the various parts and some of the relevant parts of the tape such as the Omarska camp so that you don't have a video representation of it, his interview, who is conducting the interview, and then some of the Bosnian Serb leaders who are on the later segments of the tape, simply for identification purposes. And then we'll be submitting the actual tape and the transcript as the evidence.

JUDGE MAY: Well, where am I supposed to be looking now at the transcript?

MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour, this is at the bottom of page 3, we will begin there. Now, if we could run it back. Thank you, right there is good. Mr. Semenovic --

MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, I have an objection.

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Let's just get an answer to that question. Who was the man on the tape? ⁵⁶⁷

MR. KEEGAN:

Q. Being shown?

A. This is Mr. Simo Drljaca.

JUDGE MAY: Now, Mr. Vucicevic, what do you want to say?

MR. VUCICEVIC: Just as the Court had difficulty following this transcript, I have the same difficulty because we have been given these tapes, about four days ago. And we have been getting two tapes everyday. Finally we received some tapes on Saturday, we didn't get because we couldn't get reviewed those two tapes. And I do not know whether this is a footage that we received a couple of days ago or not, just having one image on the screen. If the Prosecutor would like to play the whole film or, you know, substantial portion of it, so that we can identify that that's the film that we have received it, we don't mind it being admitted. And of course, you know the witness could testify to -- or parts of it. But the transcript, as I said, clip three as I look just right now, I can't recall that I ever saw that film because these names are strange to me, never saw them before, never heard of them.

MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, if I might?

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Keegan. ⁵⁶⁸

MR. KEEGAN: This was given to the Defence a week ago, prior to this witness' testimony. We have the receipt. In addition prior to this session, I specifically asked the Defence if there was any objection to this tape. And the answer was, there was no objection. That he, he was talking about the tapes which we gave him this weekend that we don't intend to offer now and he said he hadn't reviewed. And we specifically spoke about this tape and he said, "No objection."

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Keegan, I don't think I want to go through the discussions you've had outside court. I think it's not easy quite to follow what's happening. We'll allow you to go through this in the way that you want. But I think we're going to need some explanation. But it is right, is it, that the Defence have had all these tapes?

MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. And, in fact, I was simply trying to go as quickly as possible, given the prior remarks about trying to get through the evidence. But I am happy to go through the tapes more fully.

JUDGE MAY: Well, do it the way that you want to, but just bear in mind that we have to follow. I am supposed to be looking at page 3; is that right, of the ⁵⁶⁹ transcript?

MR. KEEGAN: That's right, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: And an interview with Simo Drljaca.

MR. KEEGAN: Drljaca, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. KEEGAN:

Q. And if we could back it up to about the six minute mark and play it from there, please. (Videotape played).

Q. Now, this would actually be on page 2, Your Honour, moving on to page 3, the one on page 2, you can see that the reporter is talking about arriving at the camp during lunch time. And then we move to page 3. And Mr. Semenovic, can you identify that individual who is in the centre of the frame there?

A. Yes, it was Simo Drljaca, the police chief in Prijedor.

Q. And is that him there on the left again?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, if we could forward to the queue No. 3, which is about 8 minutes, 30 seconds. And that would pick up then, Your Honour, on the bottom of page 3, "male reporter off camera." Thank you. Mr. ⁵⁷⁰ Semenovic, can you identify the people there?

A. That's me here on this video.

Q. And who is it that is conducting this interview of you?

A. The interview is conducted by Dragan Bosonic, a journalist from the SRNA news agency and before the war he was a reporter at the Bosnian Herzegovina TV.

Q. And do you know what current position he has?

A. He is a high-ranking official of the SDS and, as such, he is the Deputy Foreign Minister of Bosnia-Herzegovina and he is also one of my superiors because I work for the Foreign Ministry. SDS officials still are able to work unless --

JUDGE MAY: Just a moment, I don't know that this is going to assist us, what's happening now, is it, Mr. Keegan?

MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, it is, we believe relevant to the issue, as what we believe will be raised later in this case. The attitudes of the various groups towards the various ethnic groups and their willingness to be cooperative. So that is the nature of the evidence.

JUDGE MAY: I shall need to be convinced of the relevance of any evidence about what's going on ⁵⁷¹ today.

MR. KEEGAN: Yes, your honour. If we could then continue with that segment, please.

Q. Mr. Semenovic, during this interview, you are asked to explain how you came to the camp and the answer you indicate is that you came to the camp on your own, was that, in fact, the truth? Could you pause the camera there, please, the film.

A. No, that was not the truth.

Q. There are other questions in this interview, such as knowledge about priests or Imams providing weapons to people and you indicate in your answer that you had knowledge of such things, was that the truth?

A. No.

Q. Why did you give those answers then during this interview?

A. Because I would have been killed if I had spoken the truth.

Q. If we could continue with the film, please. (Videotape played).

Q. What is that area now that we're seeing now on the film, Mr. Semenovic?

A. This is the glass house.

Q. That is the area in the camp in which you were held? ⁵⁷²

A. Yes.

Q. Thank you, if we could now forward to the 4th queue.

JUDGE MAY: What page in the transcript, please, Mr. Keegan.

MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour. This would now be No. 6, on the 5th page of the transcript. Sixth page, excuse me, Your Honour. You'll see the male reporter in the middle of the page and male reporter off camera and talking about Trnopolje.

(Videotape played).

Q. Mr. Semenovic, can you identify that area that's being shown on the video?

A. Yes.

Q. What is that, please?

A. That's the Trnopolje camp.

Q. The building that's being shown there right now, just moving off the screen, what building was that?

A. That was the local commune building and the primary school in Trnopolje. Also the old cinema theatre and to the left, that was the first thing that was seen on that shot, it's the warehouses of the co-op. They were in that area. The prisoners were all over the place in all those areas. ⁵⁷³

Q. If we could then move to 5th queue. And that, Your Honour, would be the section labelled Clip 3, on the 18th page of the transcript.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Keegan, can I ask in future that these documents are paginated?

MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour, they will be. I apologise.

Q. Mr. Semenovic, can you identify that individual there?

A. Yes, that's Dusan Kurnoga he is an official of the SDS in Prijedor.

Q. And if we could now go to the next clip, which is Clip 4, Your Honour. It's the very next page.

This segment, Your Honour, relates to the take-over of the transmitter, which has been referred to in evidence already, both by this witness and the prior witness.

(Videotape played).

Q. If we could --

MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, this is exactly the footage that I have not seen and I would like you to give us opportunity, perhaps, to review this later on this afternoon and indulge a little bit more to asking the witness about this. Not in relation to the ⁵⁷⁴ footage that is shown, but I don't know what else is on this tape.

JUDGE MAY: Well, we'll allow the questions now and then you can have time, if you want it, after the adjournment, to review the matter.

MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, we have had technical difficulties, what Mr. Keegan has indicated because we were given maybe 15 tapes within the last five days. We're living out of the hotel. We don't have facilities to do this. It with was this -- we should have received them before. And like I was saying, we won't be able to review all of these tapes because there were two other ones that I didn't get a chance to look it over. And I don't know whether they're being introduced at all. What I am kindly asking for, latitude that we review these tapes later on this evening, and perhaps recall witness on this one perhaps tomorrow.

JUDGE MAY: Yes.

MR. VUCICEVIC: Thank you.

MR. KEEGAN: Could we just move to 32 minutes, 26 seconds, please.

(Videotape played).

Q. Mr. Semenovic, do you recognise that individual? ⁵⁷⁵

A. Yes, that's Vojo Kupresanin. He was the President of the Autonomous Region of Krajina. He was at the time.

Q. And what role, if any, did he play in your removal from Omarska camp?

A. He visited the Omarska camp a day after the visit of the foreign journalists. He sought some persons in the camp. And I was the only person that he was able to find out of the persons he was looking for. And he took me to Banja Luka under police escort. He was also looking for Mirza Mujadzic and Rasema Cero and he asked me if I knew where they were, since he hadn't been able to find them in the camp. I said I didn't know. And he said he wanted to put this all together because he had some plans. He also asked about my family members, where they were. I said that they were all abroad. He asked me if I had any relatives in Banja Luka? I said, yes. I did not dare to hide that fact since they already probably had that information. He took me to the municipality building in Banja Luka under police escort.

Q. Mr. Semenovic, can you identify the man now being shown on the video?

A. Yes, that's Mr. Srdjo Srdic, the President of the Serb Democratic Party in Prijedor. ⁵⁷⁶

Q. Thank you, that's all I have for the tape. Now, during your discussion, meeting with Mr. Kupresanin in the Omarska camp, did he indicate to you what the purposes of his visit was?

A. No, he did not. However, during the conversation, the phone rang in the office across the room in which I was taken in. And a soldier came and told him that President Karadzic wants to speak to him on the phone. And Kupresanin got up and left to take the phone call.

Q. Could you see him discussing on the phone from where you were sitting?

A. Yes, I did. I saw him and I could hear what he was saying, what -- I could hear him clearly. He repeated several times that they need a lot of soaps, detergents, 300 beds, sheets and that they needed it urgently. If possible, during the day. That's what he requested. And he also said in the end, "I found only one."

Q. Did he tell you -- did he have a discussion with you about what the role of the Serbs was at that time?

A. Yes, when the police took me, and when Kupresanin walked into the room where I was, where I was waiting, he first introduced himself and said that ⁵⁷⁷ he remembered me from the parliament because we served there together. And then he said, literally the following: "This is all a plot from Vatican against Muslims, the Europe assigned to the Serbs, the role of the executors of the Muslims. It's time to undertake something." And this kind of political conversation, I just kept quiet because that was the situation. It was absolutely ridiculous for me to carry on political conversation. And, of course, I didn't dare join in because I didn't know what were his intentions. And I knew what my status was.

Q. And from Omarska camp, where did Mr. Kupresanin take you?

A. To Banja Luka and to the municipality building. We walked in that building, to his office that was on the first floor, on the right hand side. It was, maybe the second or the third door on the first floor on the right hand side. It was a large office consisting of two rooms. In the left room was a receptionist and in the room on the right, there was his -- another office and I was there when the officers whom he called upon came in and also some civilians that I did know from before. They asked me what I had eaten in the camp, how was the camp? And I mainly kept quiet because I was just lost in that situation. And I ⁵⁷⁸ remember that during that conversation, during that interrogation, the secretary called. And he said, here, the President needs to talk to you. And Kupresanin got up the take the call. And I was just maybe four metres away from him and there was just a door between us. There was a black telephone, the old kind of telephones, the ancient one. And I could hear the voice on the other end.

Q. During the time that you were in the Banja Luka area, where did you stay?

A. Kupresanin said that I will be put in some kind of an apartment or that I would be taken into a village. And if I remember correctly, it was the village called Kordvija (Phon), or something like that. He said it was a Serb village, but that I would be safe. And then later on they changed their decision, and took me to Ljubina, to my sister's house, and who lived in Ljubina, my sister and her husband, my brother-in-law. And then they talked to them and told them that I was not allowed to leave the house, that I had to be inside the whole time and that people could not, were not allowed to walk in and talk to me. They also said that I need to gain some weight and that they would bring some food. They said that they would bring in the clothes and I was told in the assembly that they ⁵⁷⁹ would give me the money and they even asked me what kind of women did I like? Blonde or brunettes? Because they said, "You will not be alone here. We'll get you a girl", this is what they said.

Q. During the time you were in that area, did Mr. Kupresanin ask you to phone anyone or contact anyone?

A. Yes, the following day the police came and took me into the municipality building. And they asked me to call Zenica and Tuzla. Because they tried to contact Zenica and Tuzla. However, on the other end no one would respond, they would just hang up. And they wanted me to contact these people on behalf of the Serbs, which I didn't dare do. And then they said, "Well, do you have any friends in Sarajevo, in Prijedor? Why don't you call them?" And I had to, in order not to jeopardise myself, I had to call some friends in Prijedor, whose telephone numbers I knew. However, nobody answered. And one friend's house, a member of the family answered the phone. However, the conversation was very brief because I didn't really have much to say. I only called -- I only called in order to obey and to fulfil something, at least some of the things that they requested me to do.

Q. On one occasion were you brought to Banja ⁵⁸⁰ Luka for the purposes of meeting the President of the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, I should say?

A. Yes.

Q. And on that occasion, did you overhear a conversation between members of the SDS from Prijedor?

A. Yes. Yes, I did. The police took me again into the municipality building and I was told that I would meet the President, Karadzic. On the radio I heard that day that Mr. Cyrus Vance and Lord Carrington were in Banja Luka that day. I was taken into the municipality building and there was a complete chaos inside, people were arguing. There was a huge argument. They were cursing at each other. They were cursing Karadzic's mother. They were saying something on abolishment of regions. They said he had the right to do so. And inside I also saw Mr. Srdjo Srdic and Mr. Stakic. At one point Srdic noticed me too. And he was already arguing with some people and then at that point, he approached me and he pulled me by my arm and he took me to those people. And he said, "Here Mevludin, why don't you confirm that I was never in the Omarska and Trnopolje centres." And then he faced these other people and he said, "I don't want to be the responsible party for the buses in Vlasic." I had no idea what he was talking about, however I just kept ⁵⁸¹ quiet. At one point Stakic, passing by him, he approached this group and was shocked to see me there. And then he just instinctively said to me, "Hi, Mevludin, how are you doing?"

Q. When did you finally leave the territory then known as the Republika of Srpska?

A. January 15th, '93. Around January 15th or 19th, I am not sure.

Q. And prior to being able to leave, did you need some assistance from Mr. Kupresanin in getting documents in order to leave?

A. Yes. Yes, in view of the fact what the International Red Cross agreed to assist, assist me in leaving this area, they asked that some kind of a personal ID of mine would be given to the Red Cross. Since I really didn't have any ID, and they couldn't put me on the list of persons without any kind of ID, the only thing that could be done was to obtain some kind of document from the police in Banja Luka or any other kind of authorities. And then the Red Cross contacted them. And then my sister had to go into the municipality and ask that some kind of ID be issued to me. They said it was not possible to do so and then one day later, a person from Banja Luka who was friendly with Kupresanin and had a conversation with ⁵⁸² him and said they would give me some kind of ID --

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Keegan, is this going to assist us?

MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour, it will.

JUDGE MAY: Let us have a copy of it then, please.

MR. KEEGAN: It will be Exhibit 43.

Q. Mr. Semenovic, do you recognise Exhibit 43?

A. Yes, it's that certificate.

Q. And on the certificate, who gave you the certificate?

A. That certificate was issued by Vojo Kupresanin it was issued to his friend and then this friend, in turn, delivered it to me.

Q. How does Mr. Kupresanin refer to Omarska in the last page of that document?

A. He calls it a prison.

MR. KEEGAN: That's all we have, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Is that your examination?

MR. KEEGAN: Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Now, Mr. Vucicevic, do you want to make a start now or do you want to break before you -- you would like the break? Very well, quarter of an hour. ⁵⁸³

--- Recess taken at 3.18 p.m.

--- On resuming at 3.36 p.m.

JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Vucicevic.

MR. VUCICEVIC: May it please the Court?

Q. Mr. Semenovic, my name is --

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Vucicevic, your questions in English, please.

MR. VUCICEVIC: Oh, I thought -- Cross-examined by Mr. Vucicevic:

Q. Mr. Semenovic, my name is Mr. Vucicevic, and I represent Dr. Milan Kovacevic in these proceedings. We have heard that you suffered a lot for the period that you testified and I personally regret what happened to you. I know how difficult it must be for you to recall and go through all of these events, but I will have to go -- just as a part of my professional duty as an attorney, is to go and examine you about some of these details. And, Your Honours, I do thank you for your latitude for allowing me to give a little introduction.

Mr. Semenovic, you said in your testimony you were born in the Village of Srpska near Vlasenica. Where is that?

A. It's a village called Srpska, in Municipality of Vlasenica, in the eastern part of Bosnia. I was ⁵⁸⁴ only born there and my parents moved in 1964 into the Prijedor Municipality. And from the age two I have been living in Prijedor.

Q. When you said that your parents moved to the Prijedor Municipality, is that in the city of Prijedor itself or any of the villages or hamlets?

A. First they moved into the village of Rizvanovici in the village of Prijedor. And that's where we lived for about seven years. And, after that, my father got the job in Kozarac in the village of Brdjani and then we moved into Brdjani and spent the next years there. After that, my father got a job in Trnopolje and then we lived in Trnopolje up until the war.

Q. Where did you finish high school?

A. High school Esad Midzic in Prijedor.

Q. Did you go the Tuzla to study mining immediately after finishing your high school?

A. No, first I went into the army. I served the mandatory army service that every healthy male had to serve. And then, after the army service, I went to the university in Tuzla.

Q. Military in the town of Leskovac, Republic of Serbia, did you spend all of your time in Leskovac?

A. Yes.

Q. You also testified that you were assigned to ⁵⁸⁵ the artillery unit?

A. Yes.

Q. Could you tell me, what was your rank?

A. I didn't have a rank. Towards the end of my military service, I was a private, but it wasn't a high, high-ranking position.

Q. Were you assigned to the artillery unit from the very beginning or there was some boot camp or preparatory training for the service?

A. In the JNA, all the young men who joined the army who go on to the military service, they all go through the training that lasts for several months. And then after the training is completed, they are stationed in the barracks and the training really specialises privates for certain duties in the Yugoslavia National Army.

Q. And you were prepared as a specialist for the artillery unit; is that correct?

A. No, I was just a plain soldier in the artillery. I wasn't a specialist.

Q. What were your duties as the private soldier in the artillery unit? As you said, you were not a specialist then.

A. I was a private soldier, so I did not have any commanding authorities. My -- I was part of the ⁵⁸⁶ crew in the Howitzer of one of 5 millimetres. They had a person who was targeting and then they had the other crew members that were providing the ammunition. I was part of this crew for a while. And then, I was for a while, I was a gunner on the Howitzer 105 millimetres.

Q. How long -- strike it. Have you performed all of these duties in your unit that you have just described?

A. Every soldier did that because all of the privates had to go through certain stages, you know, learning how to use the weapons. You know, everybody had to go through the training and gunning and in placing the Howitzers. And then, towards the end, each would be assigned a certain role. And then when we had training, we knew well in advance who would have what role, who would be the gunner, who would be putting in the ammunition and all that.

Q. How long of a time span did you spend as the fellow who was bringing the ammunition to the gun? Or how much time did you spend as the soldier who was charging up the gun and how much time did you spend as the aiming soldier?

A. Just like any other soldier, the training was set up in such a way so that each soldier in the artillery had to learn all of these operations. And ⁵⁸⁷ then at the end of the training, you would get a military speciality and I was the gunner. This duty was awarded to me at the end of the training, through which all of the privates that are member of the artillery units go through.

Q. In order to get this certificate that you are an aiming soldier on the gun, how much training did you have to have and what was the scope of your training?

A. The training covered all basic military aspects, the aiming, the targeting, what to do in case of nuclear attack, nuclear explosions, how to take positions.

Q. How many soldiers were in the basic artillery units?

A. Do you mean my unit? In Howitzer unit -- no, platoon is a larger unit. The elementary one is a crew of five persons that serve the Howitzer one of five. And larger calibres have larger crews, if I remember correctly.

Q. And what was the rank of the commanding officer of the few Howitzers that were comprising one unit? What was the rank of the officer who was commanding you?

A. Captain.

Q. Do you remember the name of the captain that ⁵⁸⁸ was your training officer at that time or commanding officer?

A. His nickname was Djuro, I don't remember his name. I served in the army in 1982.

Q. Do you remember the names of any other lower ranking commanders in your unit besides captain?

A. It was the Corporal Kovac. I remember some of the nicknames, but not the names because it was a mixed nationality situation. There were Macedonians, Slovenians --

Q. Besides doing your regular duty, camaraderie, friends, staying together after the official hours of exercise have passed?

A. No.

Q. So you haven't made any friends at all, you just spent all the time in the army for two years just by yourself?

A. The military service was one year long, not two. And, of course, during the service, we have made friends, which is normal. But I have already mentioned that the people where from Macedonia, Slovenia, Serbia, and later I didn't travel to Slovenia for many years and neither did I travel to Macedonia, so most of these people I've never met them again.

Q. I'm asking, Mr. Semenovic, maybe you're not ⁵⁸⁹ getting my question correctly, have you made any friends with these young men, regardless of what former part of Yugoslavia they were, just at that time, did you make any friends, not whether or not you maintained the friendship throughout the years later?

A. Yes, all of us in the unit, we were all friendly with each other. We had, after the training, we had certain spare time and, of course, after that, we did socialise.

Q. You slept in the same bedroom, big bedrooms. How many soldiers slept in that bedroom together?

A. Somewhere about fifteen.

Q. And you and your fellow soldiers also ate in the same cafeteria, didn't you?

A. Yes, there was a central cafeteria for the barracks and all the soldiers ate there.

Q. And all of you ate the same food, didn't you?

A. Yes, everybody was offered the same food. People ate what they liked and some people -- people ate what they wanted.

Q. Have you heard any jokes, at that time, for any of the soldiers refusing to eat certain foods?

A. I don't know about that. I know for myself, I did not see what other people, I was not interested ⁵⁹⁰ in what other people ate or did not eat.

Q. Did anybody joke because -- strike it. Have you refused to eat certain foods at that time that were offered to you as a part of the regular meals?

A. I ate what I wanted to eat from the food that was offered to me. And those things I did not want to eat, I just left them. If I didn't like the food that was prepared, I would only eat the first meal, the appetiser and some fruit and that was enough for me.

Q. Certain foods on religious grounds?

A. I did personally.

Q. Did any of your fellow soldiers make fun of you or make any jokes because you practice your religion?

A. I can't recall.

Q. You are a religious man, aren't you?

A. Yes.

Q. And making mockery of somebody's religion, or religious practice is indeed a serious matter to the true believer, isn't it?

A. I don't understand the question.

Q. I'll move on to the next line of questioning.

You said that when you came back from the military, you enrolled to the university in Tuzla. ⁵⁹¹ Have you obtained a degree, an engineering degree from mining from the University of Tuzla?

A. Yes.

Q. And could you tell me, what were the employment that you held later on from the time that you graduated through beginning or middle of '89?

A. After I graduated, actually after I had listened to all the courses, but before I graduated, my father died and I had to start working in order to feed my family because my sister studied at the same time and we planned that she should graduate first and then she should get a job, which would allow me to graduate. For about a year, I was employed by a private employer. I actually worked with my friends, we processed wood, timber, and we sold the products that we manufactured. At the same time I studied and I also passed all the exams that I had to and I was writing my thesis.

Q. And did you graduate soon thereafter or -- and obtain some other job, that is, that you were professionally qualified for?

A. No, I graduated later. I had this job and that is how I -- I graduated later in '95. I had passed all the exams, but the events that we have been discussing here took place, so I defended my thesis ⁵⁹² formerly in '95.

Q. Just so I would have the time perspective here, when did you finish your prescribed courses, as you said, what year was that?

A. '88.

Q. Have you had any other jobs throughout '88 and '89?

A. No, I was not employed by the state. I stress again, I studied at home and passed my exams and, at the same time, I worked, because I had to support my family and my sister who was at the university at the time.

Q. All what I am trying to find out, when did you get into the university, when did you get the first job and what other jobs you had. If you could just try to put it to me as plainly as possible. Because I am not trying to make it difficult. I am just trying to find out, what were your life experiences?

A. Having served in the national service, I finished that in 1983, so after 1983, I studied in Tuzla. I attended -- I finished attending all the courses in '88.

Q. Have you had any state jobs after finishing the university besides that private enterprise, small business that you worked for? ⁵⁹³

A. Yes.

Q. What kind of a state positions, state jobs, have you held?

A. I had several jobs in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

Q. Is that something that you have done after these events of 1992? I am not looking into what he has done after 1992, I am just looking before all these events happened. I just want to limit this.

A. In the period before 1992, I held the position in the parliament. And pursuant to a decision of the parliament, I was made into a professional. I gained a professional status. It was in the beginning of 1992.

Q. That you received by the decree of the parliament?

A. That the function of the member of the parliament is a -- has a professional status because the law enabled us to do so. There were certain members of the parliament, who were there as professionals. That means that they were paid for the job that they did.

Q. Any members of the parliament that were not declared as professional men that did some other jobs and were doing their political duties as the members of ⁵⁹⁴ the parliament part-time?

A. Yes.

Q. I am bringing you now to the second half of 1989. You testified that in Tadic's case that you participated, and I am directing, Your Honours, if it would be any help, page 892, and it's line 4. I participated in the foundation of the Party of Democratic Action. Could you tell me, how did you get an idea to pursue this political activities? Was it your own or somebody suggested to you, Mr. Semenovic, let's proceed with this?

A. It was my idea. And I joined these activities in 1990 and not in 1989 as you suggested.

Q. So, tell me, how did you get keyed in, as I am using your term, or came on board. Your Honours, I am listening to the witness and getting, you know, the questioning I am not looking at the -- maybe I should -- how was it translated, so I can help you exactly you know, with terminology.

Well, how did it come about that you began to participate in the political activities?

A. I wanted to join the process, which I saw as an opportunity for the democracy to come to this area where we lived because we had watched these processes take place in the neighbouring countries. ⁵⁹⁵

THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please wait until the end of the interpretation.

MR. VUCICEVIC:

Q. Who did you get together in order to start the political cell in Prijedor?

MR. KEEGAN: Sorry, to interrupt, Your Honour, there is a request from the translators to allow the translator to finish with the answer before the counsel begins again. It would be helpful for you to wear the headphones and then you can hear when they're done because it is difficult. We don't get the answer, the full answer, because he talks over and they have to stop.

MR. VUCICEVIC: Your Honour, I'll pause, with the headphones, I feel a little restricted when I am on my feet.

Q. Mr. Semenovic, all what I am trying to find out, a few friends, a few associates that you got together and in starting a political movement that you just, whose goals you just described.

JUDGE MAY: What was the question?

MR. VUCICEVIC:

Q. Mr. Semenovic, all what I am trying to find out, who are the few friends and few associates that you got together and started a political movement with ⁵⁹⁶ the goals that you just described? Who are those friends? Who are those individuals?

A. These were my friends who shared the same ideas with me in the Municipality of Prijedor. When we saw that parties were being formed, we decided to join in in the process. And we formed the steering committee for the formation of the SDA in Prijedor.

Q. Initiating committee of the SDA in Prijedor?

A. It was myself, Nijaz Kapetanovic, Dr. Iljas Music, Becir Medunjanin, Islam Bahonjic, Husein Bahonic, Jusuf Delkic, Hamid Saftic.

Q. Do you recall when you met for the first time and established the initiating committee?

A. We met for the first time and discussed this topic in a cafe in Prijedor. We called it Dzavidova Cafe. It's an old Bosnian cafe. This is the first time when we discussed this idea.

Q. Do you remember when was it?

A. It was in July, 1990.

Q. What did you decide then and how did you follow on your conclusions?

A. The programme of the SDA was acceptable to us, we were able to read about it in the papers. We decided that one of us should travel to Sarajevo and to ask for the materials from a representative of that ⁵⁹⁷ newly formed parties so that we can study the materials. And if we realise that they were in agreement with our ideas, that we should join the party and form a branch office of that party in Prijedor.

Q. (No microphone).

A. It was in the second half of May. In early June it was registered. I think it was registered in the first half of June in 1990. I can't recall the exact date, but I think it was thereabouts.

Q. Do you know who were the founding officers of the SDA in Sarajevo?

A. I knew about some of them and for others I did not know. I remember some names.

Q. (Microphone not on).

A. There was Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, he was one of the founders. Savet Isovic, he was a singer, a well-known person.

Q. That you remember of?

A. Some other persons whose names I learned from the press, from the media, and I did not know a lot about them beforehand.

Q. Have you read anywhere about the programme of this newly established SDA from Sarajevo?

A. Yes.

Q. The programme was everything that you ⁵⁹⁸ testified yesterday, isn't it?

A. I did not testify.

Q. The last day when you were in court.

A. I don't understand the question.

Q. A few days ago, on Wednesday, you were here testifying for the Prosecutor's case in chief and Mr. Keegan was asking you about the programme of the SDA and now I am asking you, did you say and stated everything that you knew about SDA programme at that time?

A. What time are you referring to? What period?

Q. May, June of '90, about the programme of the SDA at that time. Or, perhaps, your testimony referred to some other programme or some other time.

A. No, that portion of my testimony did refer to the programme, to the basic elements, but the programme of the party was very broad. And you could talk about it for a long time.

Something else too, the basic guidelines of the parties, of most of the parties in Bosnia and Herzegovina were practically the same, market economy, human rights, full national and religious freedom, freedom of the press and so on.

Q. Do you know when was the SDS established in ⁵⁹⁹ Prijedor established and where?

A. I think it was founded in the end of August or beginning of September. And the constituting assembly was held in the sports hall in Prijedor. And I was there at the constituting or founding assembly.

Q. Mr. Semenovic --

A. 1990.

Q. So, your testimony is that the SDS was formed a few months after SDS -- after SDA was formed in Prijedor; that's correct?

A. No, SDA in Prijedor was founded on the 17th of August and you asked me when it was founded in Sarajevo. As I said, in Sarajevo, it was founded in June. That is when it was officially registered. The steering committee of the party of the SDA party in Prijedor was formed, as I have already said, in July. But the facts of the founding -- but legally speaking, it's the moment when the founding assembly was held and that was in August. In a brief period, both the SDS and the SDA were established in Prijedor.

Q. You just stated a few minutes ago that you were present at the founding assembly of the SDS in Prijedor; am I correct on that one?

A. No -- yes, that's correct, I was present at the founding assembly, that's right. ⁶⁰⁰

Q. And were you invited to that founding assembly by the SDS?

A. Yes.

Q. Who invited you?

A. The collective leadership of the Party of Democratic Action was invited. The main officials of the party, the SDS invited the SDA and that's how we were there.

Q. SDA was formed before SDS in Prijedor?

A. I think it is shortly before SDS, if I remember correctly.

Q. You observed the founding assembly of SDS in Prijedor, didn't you?

A. Yes.

Q. Their goals were freedom of the press, privatisation of the economy, freedom of religious expression, human rights, just as were the goals of SDA; isn't that correct?

A. Yes, that's what they declared in public. These were their public positions that they took.

Q. At that time, you found them, you, yourself, you found them and, indeed, a natural ally to overturn the communist government which was in power for proceeding 45 years; isn't that correct?

A. Yes. ⁶⁰¹

Q. And you have cooperated with the SDS officers in the pre-election campaign?

A. Yes.

Q. You also testified, the only time that you saw the accused was at the meeting where the poster was discussed; isn't it true?

A. That was the first time that I saw him. That was not the only time, however.

Q. And at that meeting, could you just remind me, where was the meeting held?

A. In the new hotel in Prijedor, upstairs.

Q. Was it -- to the best of my recollection, there is a big dining hall on the floor on the Prijedor hotel; isn't that true?

A. Yes, it was to the left of that hall. When you look from the beginning of the hall where the band played, to the left there is a corridor and there are offices there in that corridor. The doors of that corridor are to the left, the first, second, third door. And the meeting was held in the first office to the left.

Q. When you got to the meeting, was Dr. Kovacevic already present in that room?

A. Yes. Yes, because they had a meeting of their own before that. That's what it had seemed to ⁶⁰² me.

Q. How many of -- how many men were in that room before you arrived there?

A. Ten to twelve men, I think there were twelve of them. At any rate, there were many and we had expected only two of them to be there. I think there were ten or twelve of them because the whole side of the table, it was a long table, it was full of people. It was a table where people could sit on both sides.

Q. You were expecting to see only two representatives from the SDS; that's correct?

A. Yes, that's what the arrangement was.

Q. And the new hotel in Prijedor is basically the biggest hotel in Prijedor, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And the people, when they go out, quite often go to new hotel in Prijedor?

A. Some people went to the new hotel, some people went somewhere else, wherever they wanted to go.

Q. During the discussion about the poster, my client, Dr. Kovacevic, has made the remarks that the name "Yugoslavia" should be on the poster; isn't that correct?

A. Yes. ⁶⁰³

Q. And isn't it true that, at that time, Yugoslavia was an official country, intact country and country of which all of you were the citizens?

A. Yes, but we were now preparing for the elections in the Republic, not at the federal level. These were the elections for the authorities of the Republic and the poster had to do with the elections for the Republic, not for the federal level, for the area of all of Yugoslavia.

Q. Isn't it true that Yugoslavia had principles of equality of nations up to that time?

A. Yes, but it had nothing to do with the poster. We had the republic elections, some republics had already conducted the elections. And then the election in Bosnia followed. We were making the poster for the pre-election campaign in the Republic.

Q. Not results of the elections in the other states, but what was happening at that time when you were preparing for the election in Bosnia? Since Dr. Kovacevic insisted that the word "Yugoslavia" would be enclosed, indeed, that could reasonably assume that he was concerned about equality of the nations. The principle that you just said existed in Yugoslavia, just one of the reasonable conclusions. Is it possible to conclude that? There might be some other ⁶⁰⁴ conclusions, but that's one of the conclusions?

A. We understood that and we put the word "Yugoslavia" on the poster and we accepted the position of the Serbian Democratic Party.

Q. As a matter of fact, this coalition between SDA and SDS was indeed so strong, that there was an agreement made ahead of the election how to divide the power in the case of victory; isn't it correct?

A. Yes, on the level of the leadership of the party leadership, there was an agreement. I am not quite certain as to the content of the agreement, but immediately after the elections, the principles of the allocation of power were defined in a written form and the parties even have a written agreement on the percentage of allocation of power.

Q. In order to win the election in Bosnia at that time, one party, as I understood the government, one party must have more than 50 per cent of the aldermen on the municipal level; isn't that so?

A. They had to have over 50 per cent of the votes in order to create the government on their own.

Q. So, therefore, it is unfair to state that SDA won elections in Prijedor, is it?

A. No, it is not unfair. It is a correct statement in accordance with the election law that was ⁶⁰⁵ in force at that time, the party who took most of the votes won the election. If it happened to be 20 per cent and all other parties, and there were a lot of them had 5 per cent, then the party that got 20 per cent of the vote was the winning one. So the party, as I said, was the majority of the percentage of votes. The other problem is that with only 20 per cent of the votes, that party could not create a government on its own. That's a separate issue. But, as the law regulates, only the party with more than 50 per cent of the votes can create a government on its on.

Q. And testify on the accuracy or anachronism on the sum of the laws that existed in the communist Yugoslavia, didn't you?

MR. KEEGAN: Your Honour, I am sorry to interrupt, but it's happened about four or five other occasions, where Mr. Vucicevic is beginning his questions again before the translation of the answer has finished and we have been unable to get complete answers from the witness in translation. So I would just appeal if you would at least either put on the headphones or watch the screen more carefully, so we can get complete answers before the next question begins.

MR. VUCICEVIC: I apologise, Your Honour, I ⁶⁰⁶ will try to observe the screen.

THE WITNESS: The election law was quite clear, there was no an anachronism or confusion in the law itself.

MR. VUCICEVIC:

Q. Mr. Semenovic, the leadership of your party could have made a deal with, with the other parties besides the SDS and achieve the electoral victory, but found them unsuitable. Why were those parties unsuitable for coalition for the officials of your party?

A. We didn't want to enter the coalition with the Communist Alliance and all the other parties that emerged from the alliance of communists.

Q. We will proceed now, after the election. The elections were held and the main responsibility of the parties was to form the municipal government. You testified there was no difficulties in selecting the mayor, the deputy mayor, the president of the executive board; isn't that correct?

A. Yes, that's correct.

Q. Of the executive board, two of them. All of these positions--

A. Yes.

Q. --had to be confirmed because those mayor and ⁶⁰⁷ deputy mayor are elected positions, they were elected as the aldermen and then elected by their constituents, but all of these positions had to be confirmed by the municipal assembly; isn't that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And all of these officers were confirmed by the unanimous votes of the coalition alderman?

A. I can't recall if the election was unanimous, but the assembly did confirm the president that were elected.

Q. Were you a guest, perhaps, at the inaugural assembly or the founding assembly of the first three municipal assembly in Prijedor, perhaps could have been in order?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you recall seeing a single SDA alderman voting against the slate for the officers?

A. I don't recall --

Q. I'm sorry?

JUDGE MAY: Let the witness finish.

THE WITNESS: I was present as a guest in the first row and I didn't look back to see who was voting and who isn't.

MR. VUCICEVIC:

Q. Were the votes officially posted or announced ⁶⁰⁸ by the presiding officer?

A. Yes, they were.

Q. We will move on to the distribution of power. And you said that the difficulties arose with the appointment of the chief of police; isn't that correct?

A. Yes, I stated that as an example, as a very good example, and this arose with respect to several positions, not just the position of the chief of police, but this issue itself was the most obvious with respect to the chief of police.

Q. Could you describe the procedure at that time by which the head of police is being appointed?

A. The chief of police at that time after the coordination concerning the candidates among the political parties, the chief of police was appointed by a formal decree of the Minister of Internal Affairs, if I remember correctly, but only after the coordination among the parties concerning the candidates and confirmation that they are in agreement concerning the candidates in accordance with the allocation of power among the parties.

Q. The electoral victory, you have testified that you promised to your voters, to your supporters if you win that you should appoint a head of police; isn't ⁶⁰⁹ that correct? You testified to that fact?

A. I stated that as one of the examples of the pre-election promises, and there were many pre-election promises, just like in every campaign, but people expected that because for decades they didn't have an opportunity to see a Bosniak, a Muslim on that post.

Q. You have testified, and I will specify the language, tomorrow the line and the page, but you have testified and used the word, therefore, 45 years, the heads of police have been Serbs. To my previous answer, you said there was no Bosniak Muslims, but you have said that those were Serbs, haven't you?

A. Yes, as far as I know, I said -- I stated what I knew based on the information that I had. Of course, I was born in 1962 and I have been living in Prijedor since 1964. I don't know what happened in the 40s and in the 50s, but from what I heard from the elderly and from the time when I was born and I was aware, I know that it was always the Serbs that held that position.

Q. Pre-electoral campaign, you have spoken about Serbs having this power position for 45 years, haven't you?

A. No, I didn't give that example. We never used those terms during the pre-election campaigns. In ⁶¹⁰ fact, we didn't analyse that from the nationalistic example. We sincerely wanted to go beyond that communist stage and to enter the democratic society that we have witnessed in the countries around us. People travelled and they know that in other countries, people live better, they have more freedom in the democratic countries. And that's just what we wanted. We wanted to seize the monopoly of one party of the league of communists. And always during the pre-election campaign, this is what we stated because that is exactly what our intention was.

We didn't specify what nationalities had what posts. Simply, that wasn't what we cared about at that time. We had the same view, the same position towards Bosniak and Serbs, we simply made a distinction based on what position people held. And we wanted the people to be free to elect their own parties, their own people, and to follow the programmes that they wished to follow and to establish the government on this democratic principle where there just wouldn't be one party, but multiple parties.

Q. But, indeed, if one takes what you just said on its face value, it wouldn't have made any difference whether the chief of police was Serb, Muslim, Serb communist who declared themselves a Yugoslav or a ⁶¹¹ Muslim who didn't practice and declared him Yugoslav, it really wouldn't matter, would it?

A. It would matter and for the following reasons: The factual situation in Prijedor Municipality during the communist regime was such that it was mostly the Serbs that held high positions. For example, Prijedor, I think, had 19 public companies. And in 18 leading managing positions -- in 18 companies --

Q. As the political appointee, you're going into the economy. I mean, if you can stay on this one, on the political appointee and the chief of police. If you could answer my question.

A. This is exactly what I am talking about. I wished to say the following: People understood, realised, that if we gained the opportunity to have the multiple party, democratic system, then in the national respect, the power will be balanced, allocated in a balanced way. There wouldn't be a situation where we would have 18 Serbs on leading positions and only one Bosniak and this is the issue that we raised during the pre-election campaign.

Q. How do you find somebody to be a Serb?

A. We know based on their name and last name. There is a clear distinction there. And also, whether ⁶¹² they're religious, we know whether they go to the church or to the mosque and also people in certain situations state openly their views.

Q. Basically, I would like to narrow this question a bit more. Is a Serb being born into the religion an ethnicity, or there is some other requirements or criteria?

A. I don't understand the question. I am a Bosniak, a Muslim, and I know that I was born as such. What you asked, I didn't understand that.

Q. Do you think that -- does definition, a Serb, include a man who was born with a Serbian first name and last name, but who doesn't practice Orthodox religion, is that a Serb?

A. For me, a Serb is a person that states openly that he or she is a Serb. We in Bosnia make this distinction among ethnic background very well. It's a matter of personal choice. They were people who were -- who were of a certain nationality, but they stated that they were Yugoslavs. And, among Yugoslavs, the majority, at least this is what the statistics showed, the majority of Yugoslavs were Bosniak Muslims.

Q. Could it perhaps be that any of the police chiefs in Prijedor in 50 years prior to your electoral victory, could it be that it was some of those, perhaps ⁶¹³ that were denoted as Serbs, they were Yugoslavs?

A. No. The nationality, Yugoslav nationality, was introduced relatively late. Immediately after the Second World War, after the communists took over, the law prescribed that they were officially only Serbs, Croats and Bosniak Muslims could either declare themselves as Serbs or as Croats and later on they were given the opportunity to declare themselves as undecided. At that time, we didn't really have Yugoslavs. From what I know, this declaration of being a Yugoslav was introduced only in the 70s. I am not quite sure of this, but I think that this term was not used in the constitution prior to that, the Yugoslav nationality.

Q. Mr. Semenovic, in your high school report notes, and so were in mine and generations before us, were categories "nationality," and they were one printed Yugoslavian and another dash line for everybody else to write, wasn't that so?

A. Yes, there was that line there, that item where you could enter your nationality.

Q. Whether there was a Yugoslav written therein?

A. I don't remember.

Q. So perhaps some of these police chiefs could ⁶¹⁴ have been Yugoslavs, so you don't know definitely that they were Serbs, do you?

A. I have already explained that term.

Q. Indeed, Mr. Semenovic, the police chiefs, as you said, was the first power position that the coalition partners stumbled upon in Prijedor, that's true?

A. One of the problems was also the post of the police chief in the allocation of power.

Q. But the native language, you used the word "power," you didn't use "political appointees," you did not use "functionaries," you didn't use anything else and you repeatedly used the word "power"; isn't that correct?

A. The power means the carrying out of certain functions in the municipality, in the government service. In our Bosnian language that means to have the power -- to exercise power.

Q. So when you ran for the political office, you ran to get the power, but not to serve the people, didn't you?

JUDGE MAY: I don't think that's going to be a very helpful line of cross-examination.

MR. VUCICEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour, I'll move on. ⁶¹⁵

Q. You were travelling with Dr. Srdo Srdic quite often to Sarajevo. He was a Serbian representative into the council of citizens; isn't that correct?

A. Yes. Not -- I didn't travel often with him. I travelled several times, but not often. However, we were together on the parliament sessions and I saw him frequently there. Because I mostly took the train into Sarajevo and to sessions and Srdic generally travelled in a luxury car.

Q. You testified last Wednesday that SDA had finally obtained their man as the police chief in Prijedor and that was upon the assistance of the political tops from Sarajevo, SDA and SDS; isn't that correct?

A. Yes, and after that, the leadership of SDS and SDA agreed and Prijedor, to divide these posts in such a way. So there was an agreement between the leaders of SDA and SDS in Prijedor and after which an allocation was achieved. But I did say that this was done only after the intervention, after the urging from the leaders on the republic level, as far as I remember, because I was not a participant in these discussions. But I know that this was the only way to solve the problem because SDS did not agree at the local level to completion of the allocation of power in ⁶¹⁶ this manner.

Q. Since you were a member of the parliament and quite often in touch with the political leadership in Sarajevo, somebody has informed you about what you just testified; isn't that correct?

A. Of course, I insisted, since we were unable to agree at the municipal level, since the SDS refused to honour the agreement on the allocation of power that had already been achieved, that we should address the leadership in Sarajevo. And the Prijedor SDS refused that suggestion. In the end, they agreed that these consultations should be carried out at the republican level and allegedly Kadiric said, let them put their man on that position.

Q. Who informed you of this statement of Dr. Kadiric?

A. In the parliament, I was able to see Srdic consult Kadiric on such matters. And the SDS leadership in Prijedor formally agreed, they said, "All right, the agreement has been achieved. You have the post of the chief of police."

Q. So it's reasonable to conclude that the officials of SDS in Prijedor disregarded at times, directions and orders from the political top; isn't that correct? ⁶¹⁷

A. They did not reject the instructions, they carried them out, just as they did when they agreed that the SDA should have the key function of the chief of police, but only after the intervention of the central office of SDS in Sarajevo. That's when the municipal leadership accepted that and honoured it after that. Before that, they refused.

Q. Last Wednesday you testified, there was an exhibit introduced, about power sharing between the SDA and the SDS and that was passed on the SDS in Prijedor, therefore, it seems that looked like a directive, didn't it?

A. These are the principles. The percentages and general functions are indicated there. If a party wins a certain percentage of votes, it gets the post of the president, the second party, the runner up has the post of vice president. Then you have chief of departments, deputies and so forth. This is what is indicated in that document. You don't have the definition of specific posts that one party should get the post of the chief of police and the other the post of the president of the executive board. You have just the generalist terms there.

Q. Of Bosnia-Herzegovina at that time?

A. At that time, that was the first government, ⁶¹⁸ I think it was Mr. Deli Mustafic.

Q. And do you know the gentleman personally?

A. I don't know him personally, intimately.

Q. One politician --

A. Yes, as a member of parliament, I saw him in the parliament. Sometimes he would submit reports and that's how I know him. I listen to some of his remarks. I did not have any personal contact with him. Yes.

Q. Was he the officer, high officer of SDA at that time?

A. No.

Q. But he was a member of the parliament also, wasn't he?

A. No, he was not a member of the parliament. He was the Minister of the Interior. He was a member of the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Q. Looking to find out how he came to the parliament. On another occasion, while you were a member of the parliament, common room on their lobby, you have overheard the conversation where the Prijedor chapter of the SDS was criticised, who was the representative who criticised Prijedor chapter of SDS?

A. You said that the convention of the SDA was criticised -- ⁶¹⁹

Q. Prijedor SDS council.

A. Oh, yes, I understand, I see now. The SDS party in Prijedor. Yes, I heard that in the breaks of the sessions in the assembly, sometimes those breaks were quite long and then we would sit down together and listen to the conversation --

Q. That was a gentlemen from Pale; isn't that correct?

A. Yes, it was Mr. Ljubo Bosiljcic. He was the member of the parliament from the Serb Democratic Party.

Q. At the time that you heard that criticism, you didn't know what that criticism was about, did you?

A. I knew it, they told him that he wasn't doing his job properly, that he failed to achieve anything in Prijedor because they lost in Prijedor.

Q. That that criticism was rendered because of the inefficient political organisation in Prijedor because they lost?

A. As for that criticism that we have been discussing now, it may have meant that. The reason could have been something else, some problems within the party, but I don't know about that.

Q. As a matter of fact, there were not any major ⁶²⁰ problems between SDS and SDA until the war in Croatia broke out; isn't that correct?

A. There were problems regarding the allocation of power.

Q. But when, when the war in Croatia erupted, what was the position of SDA toward the draught, JNA draught, for Croatian war?

A. The SDA did not support the intervention of the JNA in Slovenia and Croatia.

Q. Have you published any notices, any information, any positions as to the response to the mobilisation?

A. Do you mean at a local level in the Prijedor municipality? At the level of the republic, the political leaders stated their views and it was reported in the media. There was also discussion about that in the Bosnian parliament.

Q. At that time, Bosnia and Herzegovina were a part of Yugoslavia, Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, were they?

A. At that time, yes. That means several months after the new government was formed.

Q. JNA was the official military of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia at that time? I am talking July, August, September of '91. ⁶²¹

A. Yes, but Yugoslavia had already been transformed and the status of the JNA --

Q. What I am asking, I am asking is JNA at that time --

JUDGE MAY: Yes, yes, just a moment. We can only have one person speaking at a time. And, in this case, it was the witness. You must allow him to finish, Mr. Vucicevic. And then if you want to ask another question, do. Would you bear in mind also that everything has got to be interpreted, and therefore, there is a necessity for a discipline waiting before asking questions.

MR. VUCICEVIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: Yes. Was there anything you wanted to add, Mr. Semenovic, to that answer?

THE WITNESS: Yes, I wanted to add that at the time this question referred to, there had already been democratic changes both in Slovenia and in Croatia. There were some changes in the Yugoslav leadership and Slovenia and Croatia passed certain legislation, which changed their status and their position within Yugoslavia.

Our view was that, at that time, the peace process had already started, the process of negotiating on the transformation of Yugoslavia. Our view was that ⁶²² until a solution is found, first of all, that solution should be reached by peaceful means. But until such a solution is found, the army should not get involved in any conflicts in order to prevent a war breaking out. That was the view of the republican leadership and of the party. And, to that effect, we were opposed to the mobilisation because we deemed that negotiations should be conducted and not war. We shouldn't have a war of JNA against the people, the people that it was supposed to protect. That was the reason why it was established in the first place.

Q. Mr. Semenovic, when I simply asked you, and I still insist that you answer the question, if I may, please, Your Honour, is whether or not Bosnia was officially part of Yugoslavia in the summer of 1991?

A. Yes.

Q. And whether JNA was an army of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia at that time?

A. Yes.

Q. And sometime in September of 1991, official army of the existing country of Yugoslavia, JNA, has issued a call for mobilisation in Prijedor area; isn't that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And having lived in that country for at least ⁶²³ 20 or more years, re-service and active soldiers have responded to the call; isn't that correct?

A. Some did, some did not.

Q. Is it fair to say that most of the people who declared themselves as Bosniak Muslims did not respond to mobilisation call?

A. Yes.

Q. You testified last time when you were before the Trial Chamber, you said there were two units from Prijedor, 5th Kozara Brigade, which was to be 6th Krisca (Phon) Brigade beforehand and 343rd, later 43rd Brigade were filled up to their full formation by the re-service from Prijedor area; isn't that correct?

A. I did not mention the 343 Brigade and the 43rd Brigade. I talked about the 5th, Kozara Brigade and the 6th Krajina Brigade. Because for a while, it had one name and for a while another. I don't remember which name was used at which time.

JUDGE MAY: Mr. Vucicevic, it's now five o'clock, is that a convenient moment?

MR. VUCICEVIC: Yes, Your Honour.

JUDGE MAY: We'll go on tomorrow. Mr. Semenovic, would you be back, please, tomorrow at half past nine.

We have another matter to deal with, in fact, ⁶²⁴ at nine o'clock, so I hope we'll be able to start this case at half past nine. But, if not, that is the reason.

Could you be back tomorrow, please.

--- Whereupon proceedings adjourned at 5.00 p.m., to be reconvened on the

14th day of July, 1998, at 9.30 a.m.