²³³⁵ Wednesday, 27th August 1997

(10.00 am)

JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated. Madam Registrar, please have the accused brought in.

(Accused brought in)

JUDGE JORDA: Allow me, Mr. Prosecutor and Mr. Hayman, before continuing with your witness, to indicate that today is our last day for the month of August, and we will conclude work at 5.45. The afternoon will begin at 3.00, so I would like both sides to seek to end work today at a convenient point. I think we are meeting again on 24th September.

I wish to remind you that the Appeals Chamber is going to deal with an appeal, the appeal of Croatia in this same case of Blaskic, the question of subpoenas. That is what I am asking, that at 5.45, we interrupt the proceedings at a coherent point in the case. That is all.

Mr. Prosecutor, you can have your witness brought in, Mr. Kavazovic.

MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. President, good morning Mr. President, your Honours, counsel.

At the conclusion of yesterday's session, your Honour, one housekeeping matter I would like to bring to the court's attention, and that is Mme. Fauveau brought ²³³⁶ to my attention that when I had asked Mr. Kavazovic to circle the SDK building in the colour pink on Prosecutor's exhibit 45C, he marked the SDK building and circled it in the colour orange. For the record, the Prosecutor's exhibit 45C has orange markings circling the SDK building and the initials SDK.

JUDGE JORDA: Thank you Mme. Fauveau for your vigilance and for indicating the mistake in the colour used. Please have Mr. Sulejman Kavazovic brought in.

(Witness entered court)

JUDGE JORDA: Good morning, Mr. Kavazovic. Can you hear me?

A. Yes, I can. Good morning.

JUDGE JORDA: Please be seated. You are still under oath and you will continue to be questioned by the Prosecution whose witness you are.

SULEJMAN KAVAZOVIC (continued) Examined by MR. HARMON (continued)

MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. President. I would ask the usher initially, your Honour, to please place on the easel Prosecutor's exhibit 45C.

While that exhibit is being placed on the easel, Mr. Kavazovic, at the conclusion of yesterday's testimony, you brought to my attention an error that you had made on Prosecutor's exhibit 45C.

A. Yes, I made an error. I marked a position below the ²³³⁷ road, a couple of centimetres to the left instead of to the right.

MR. HARMON: Your Honour, may I approach that exhibit? I cannot see that exhibit because of the fold on the left side.

JUDGE JORDA: Yes, please, Mr. Harmon. Of course, if the Defence wants to approach, it is welcome to do so.

MR. HARMON: I am sorry, your Honour, it should be exhibit 56C that should be mounted. Mr. Usher, if you would take that clip on the left-hand side top and move that, because it covers the marking made by the witness. Mr. Kavazovic, can you explain the error and can you correct it on the Prosecution's exhibit 56C?

A. I can. I can correct the error, and indicate the error that I have made. I made the error here, because I was digging trenches not to this side of the road, but on the other side of the road, so this is wrong and this is right. This is where I was digging the dugout in Rijeka.

Q. Would you take the dark pen that is in front of you and cross out the pink mark on the left where you have made the error? Thank you, Mr. Kavazovic, you can have a seat.

For the record, your Honour, the pink mark on ²³³⁸ prosecutor's exhibit 56C on the right is where Mr. Kavazovic was digging trenches.

Mr. Kavazovic, you indicated that while you were on the front lines in Kratine, you saw the military police, the MUP, the HVO and the Jokers working along those lines. Did it appear to you that those units were working together?

A. Yes, they were working together since they were in the same area. They were linked one to another along the same line, so they were working together.

Q. Now if I can ask the usher to please place on the easel Prosecutor's exhibit 29G.

Mr. Kavazovic, could you approach Prosecutor's exhibit 29G and mark the area of Kratine where you were digging trenches? Could you use a pink pen, please?

A. This is the area where I was digging trenches, Kratine.

Q. You can remain standing there for one minute. Mr. Usher, I am going to ask that one additional image be placed on the easel. It will be Prosecutor's exhibit 51C.

JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Harmon, may I ask you? I missed something. You asked whether the HVO and the Jokers were working together with someone; who was the third?

MR. HARMON: The HVO, the Jokers, the MUP and the military police. ²³³⁹

THE REGISTRAR: We do not have a document 51C.

JUDGE RIAD: What is the MUP?

MR. HARMON: Let me ask Mr. Kavazovic to explain what the MUP is?

A. The MUP stands for the Ministry of Internal Affairs. It is the civilian police, the Ministry of Internal Affairs, MUP. The civilian police.

MR. HARMON: I ask that that exhibit be marked as Prosecutor's exhibit -- is it C?

THE REGISTRAR: It will be 51A.

MR. HARMON: Mr. Kavazovic, could you take a look at Prosecutor's exhibit 51A and can you locate any particular trenches on that photograph that you dug?

A. On this photograph, I can see the trenches that were dug by us, the imprisoned civilians. These were the trenches used by the Croatian fighters and the Croatian army.

Q. Would you please mark those trenches with the colour pink.

A. The Bungalow at Nadioci, so from Nadioci we went to Kratine, this is Kratine, and we were digging trenches here (indicates).

Q. In the centre of that circle you have drawn, does one of the trenches that you dug appear to be visible?

A. Yes, I think so. Here it is. You can see the trenches; ²³⁴⁰ you can see the path. They could not pass, so we had to dig the trenches so they would not be hit by the Territorial Defence and the Defence forces of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Q. Thank you, Mr. Kavazovic. You can have a seat. I would ask that the usher please place on the ELMO Prosecutor's exhibit 29C.

JUDGE JORDA: Could you please, Mr. Prosecutor, and I address myself to the Defence as well when their time comes, to give notice to the Registrar of the exhibits that you will need in the necessary order: "I will ask for exhibit 50, then 29", et cetera; which will save us some time. Continue please.

MR. HARMON: Yes, Mr. President.

JUDGE JORDA: Thank you.

MR. HARMON: Mr. Kavazovic, can you take a look at Prosecutor's exhibit 29C and can you, in looking at that exhibit, inform the court how far away Kratine is from the hotel Vitez. First of all, can you point to Kratine. (Witness indicates). How far away is that from the hotel Vitez?

A. The distance from the hotel Vitez is 5 to 6 kilometres.

Q. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Usher. I am finished with that exhibit.

Mr. Kavazovic, while you were at the front lines ²³⁴¹ during the seven to eight days that you said you were there, did you have an opportunity to see any communications equipment in the possession of the HVO units that were there?

A. While I was there, Mr. Ivica Vujica, the commander of a part of the Jokers, had radio equipment on him from the former JNA. It is a green radio receiver which is carried over the shoulder. It has an earphone on the side; I do not know exactly the time or model, but it is a radio receiver and transmitter and he used it, he spoke over it. I saw that others who were also commanders and leaders of platoons and detachments carried these Motorolas or radio stations as a means of communication.

Q. You said a portable Motorola. Did you see a portable telephone as well?

A. Yes, it is at the same time a telephone. It is actually a radio station, some kind of radio. It was green with a shoulder strap, and I think it is equipment of the Yugoslav People's Army.

Q. Did it appear to you, Mr. Kavazovic, that the units at that line were able to communicate with each other?

A. Yes, they did communicate in fact. When I reached Ivica Vujica, commander of the Jokers -- he is from Busovaca -- he was called up over this radio. The words were ²³⁴² "Idol is calling Sardina", which is probably some kind of code language used in radio communication, and the question was, "Idol have you received men for digging?" He answered, "Sardina, yes, I have got the men." I do not know who was Idol and who was Sardina but those were the words used.

Q. Did it appear to you, based on that conversation, that units on the enemy line were able to communicate with units behind that particular line?

A. Yes.

Q. Mr. Kavazovic, while you were at that particular line for those number of days, were you threatened?

A. Yes, there were threats. We had to do what we were told. We did not dare, of course, run away. There was always a guard, depending on where we were digging. If we were digging at the HVO lines, one of the soldiers would stand by, armed, and he would threaten, "Do not dare try and run because we will kill you all", so we had to have our heads bowed looking downwards. Rarely were we allowed to look elsewhere, where we were not supposed to look, so we had to do heavy labour. We had to dig for a whole day sometimes. Once I had to dig a rock to remove the rock so that it would serve as a shield for them.

Q. Were you ever forced to place mines in the ground? ²³⁴³

A. Yes, on one occasion, actually on the fourth or fifth day, Mr. Anto Furundzija came amongst the eight of us, together with four members. Two belonged to the HVO and two were Jokers, like Anto Furundzija himself, who was a Joker. Then he asked which one of us knew how to lay mines. We were all silent. Then he asked again, "Does anyone know who is a pyrotechnician", that is persons dealing with explosives, who understand explosives. We all bowed our heads and nobody gave any answer. Then he pointed at me and said, "Kavaz, you are coming with me." I was terrified; I wondered why me? Then I went to a stream where mines had to be laid. They were also JNA mines. He asked me whether I knew how to lay them and I said, "I have no idea." He told me to try. However, while working in the army as a corporal, I did come across these mines, but for training purposes, not combat. I knew the procedure for laying a minefield.

So I started working on it. When I got the fuses, they were training lighters; the lighters were not the real ones. I do not know what the reason was. I told them that the difference between training lighters, which are yellow -- and the combat lighters are red. I explained to this man the difference, that it was not a lighter for combat mines. So he brought some others. ²³⁴⁴ I do not know whether they were doing this to check whether I knew how to do it or not, so I placed them there and I left.

Q. Where did you lay those mines?

A. I laid the mines at Kratine on the left-hand side alongside a stream, along the dividing line between the HVO and the army.

Q. Approximately what date, Mr. Kavazovic, did you leave the Kratine area?

A. I went around 30th April, the 28th or 30th.

Q. Why did you leave the front lines?

A. Having worked so hard -- I worked all the time; I had very little rest -- I could not eat fish. I just cannot stand it and throughout the period I was there I had to eat this fish. Sometimes I was forced to eat it. Being exhausted, I fainted, I lost consciousness, and upon the orders, or at least I heard that Bralo Mladen, Cicko, ordered that I be taken away from the area, and two of my comrades who were with me, captured civilians, were told to put me in a van and drive me to Busovaca and that is what they did. The same driver, known as Zabac, put me in this van, together with the two civilians Cengalovic Jasmin and Adnan Piric, I was driven to the first aid station at Busovaca, where I was given medical treatment, I got an injection and I came to. My muscles ²³⁴⁵ were stiff, I had serious inflammation of the muscles and both my legs and arms had gone stiff.

Q. When you said Mladen Cicko, you mean Bralo, Miroslav Bralo, also known as Cicko?

A. Bralo Miroslav, known as Cicko.

Q. After you were given this medical treatment, where were you taken?

A. After medical treatment -- they treated me correctly; I was given an infusion and an injection -- the same van waited for me and they took me back to Kaonik, the camp there at Kaonik.

Q. If I could have the usher place the following exhibit which is a copy of the previous exhibit, number 59 on the easel, your Honour. I believe that will be Prosecutor's exhibit 59A.

THE REGISTRAR: Yes, exhibit number 59A.

MR. HARMON: Mr. Kavazovic, would you first of all take the pointer and can you point out where you were taken, where Kaonik is on that particular photograph.

A. Here these are shelters of the Territorial Defence of the former JNA warehouses, former military warehouses, and I was taken there from the medical centre.

Q. Can you take a pink pen and just put a circle around that location, please. You can have a seat again. After you were taken there by the HVO, where were you ²³⁴⁶ placed in that particular facility?

A. I was placed in a building which had small premises about 2.5 metres long and 2 metres wide. They were warehouses, storage space, and these premises had numbers, so I was in room number 5.

Q. Did you have access in and out of that room freely or were you guarded by somebody?

A. The rooms were locked. I was put in room number 5 and if I wanted to go out, I had to knock; there was an opening on the door. I would say, "Room number 5." Then he would ask me, "What do you want?" I would say, "I need to go to the toilet", he would open and accompany me to the toilet and bring me back. That was the only time we were outside. When I was given lunch, the door would be opened so that I could see while eating and then they would be closed again. In the camp, I was given two meals a day for the two days I was there. In the morning there was a cooked meal, cooked rice at 9.00, and at 4.00 again there was rice and potatoes, so anyway the food was much better than on the frontlines where we were digging.

Q. Were you able to identify by particular military unit the guards that were guarding you?

A. The guards that were guarding us at the entrance were military policemen, and inside the building they were ²³⁴⁷ members of the HVO.

Q. You said you remained at Kaonik for two days. Where did you go after you left Kaonik?

A. On the third day, or rather the third day in the morning, Mr. Zabac came because he had promised that he would come for me the next day; he did not come the next day but the day after. He came with a van and two members of the HVO military police, and he drove me again to the SDK building, where I had been before.

Q. When you arrived at the SDK building, what did you see?

A. When I got to the SDK building, the people whom I had left behind were there, and then I met with people who had also been digging trenches like me, so we talked to each other, where we had been, where we had done the digging, and I was waiting for the exchange.

Q. Where did the people you talked to say they had been digging trenches?

A. During the conversations we had, and judging from the people who came to Kratine, I learned that people had been digging trenches in Krcevine, Dubravica, Sivrino Selo, from all the camps in Vitez; people were rounded up and taken to dig trenches.

Q. How many other detainees were with you in the SDK building at that time?

A. 62. I was the 63rd. Anyway they were all there when ²³⁴⁸ I came back. There was eight of us, I was the ninth, that were taken away, but the others did not go anyway. We waited for the exchange which had been promised us.

Q. Were you in fact exchanged?

A. Yes, the exchange took place. The Red Cross came; they brought buses and then we went to sign statements there that we did not wish to stay in Vitez. Even the people who wanted to stay did not dare say so because the situation was terrible for Muslims under the control of the HVO, so that we all had no other choice but to say that we wanted to leave Vitez to go to Zenica or Travnik, somewhere where the BH-Army was in control, and then the Red Cross would call out the names individually. The HVO military policemen were there who took us out in groups of five. Then we waited to be called out and to sign this statement, that we did not want to live in Vitez but that we wanted to go to Zenica.

This was not something that we wanted. I personally did not want to go to Zenica. I like Vitez, I prefer Vitez, but I was forced to leave Vitez and go to Zenica because if I had signed to say that I wanted to stay in Vitez, I would probably have been captured again or even something worse could have happened, because the Muslims in areas under Croatian ²³⁴⁹ control were insulted, mistreated, harassed, so that I had to sign this statement to say that I wanted to go to Zenica, that I did not want to live in Vitez. Then I got into this bus organised by the Red Cross. We were escorted by UNPROFOR and taken to the UNPROFOR base in Nova Bila. We waited there for three or four hours to be allowed passage to Zenica, because at the checkpoint near the railway station under the control of the HVO we were not allowed to pass. They wanted to search the buses, but the Red Cross would not allow it. They did not agree with that. So we had to wait for two hours for the commander of the UNPROFOR -- their names were Stewart and Anderson -- to come to an agreement with them to allow us to pass to Zenica. After two or three hours, I cannot remember exactly, the bus set off towards Vitez, the railway station, via Vjetrenice to Zenica, and that is how I got to Zenica. I gave the Red Cross the address I wanted to go to. The condition was that I must have some relatives in Zenica, to have an address there, to be able to leave Vitez. My wife had an uncle and I gave his name and address and that is how I managed to go to Zenica. So I could not leave Vitez unless I had someone in Zenica.

Q. Mr. Kavazovic I am going to show you Prosecutor's next ²³⁵⁰ exhibit, which I would ask be marked Prosecutor's exhibit 99 and I am going to ask you to identify that in just a moment. Before you say anything about that, Mr. Kavazovic, first of all can you identify the document? Then I am going to ask you a question about it.

A. This is a document of the Red Cross that we received once we were identified in Vitez, and after that, with these papers in the Red Cross office, we had our dates of birth et cetera sent to Zagreb and then these papers were sent back to us. However there is a problem with registration. 24th September 1993 is the date written here. However, I was taken out to dig trenches on the 22nd, and my father-in-law was at the SDK, then, when the Red Cross came to identify all these people who were in there and to register them and to make these lists, knowing my name, he gave my name.

So that is how I was listed, and my place of birth and date of birth et cetera, and that is how these people who were there gave these data about us so that we could be registered with the Red Cross too. When I came to the SDK, when I was returned to the SDK on the 30th , or rather on 3rd May, I got a paper from the Red Cross which my father-in-law had actually filled out for me. I did not even see these Red Cross people, nor ²³⁵¹ did I see any of this before. My father-in-law did all of this for me. This is the day they came to the SDK, but I was not there, I did not see anyone. Fortunately my father-in-law was there, so he got these papers for me.

Q. Mr. Kavazovic, you may have mis-spoken, because on the transcript it says -- the line that says "was registered by ICRC delegates on ...", your testimony was "on 24th September 1993" and what is written there is "April 26th 1993". Do you see that? Is that correct?

A. The 26th April 1993, that is when they made this registry of people in the SDK in Vitez.

Q. That is the date that your father-in-law gave the Red Cross your name?

A. Yes.

Q. Thank you.

A. He gave my personal data, and on the basis of these personal data, he got the card that he obtained, so when I came, I got the card and I did not see any of these people myself.

Q. Mr. Kavazovic, after you were released to the Red Cross, did you receive medical treatment?

A. When I got out, I had to report to Dr Mujezinovic. I went to see him. In the evening when I would go to bed, I felt very stressful. I had heart trouble, ²³⁵² probably because of everything that I had experienced. My courage had also gone down, so I went for treatment to Mujezinovic.

It was not real treatment; I went to talk to him so he would encourage me, he would help me. He is a doctor of internal medicine and he is also good at psychology, so he recommended me to Dr Sestic, a neuropsychiatrist in Zenica. I went to see him several times and then from a psychological point of view he explained to me that it was only natural after everything that I had lived through -- that this would heal, but it would take a year or two for this fright of mine to disappear. It was only a normal reaction, he said, because all that time I was tense, I was afraid. Now I am fine, I have no problems.

Q. You saw Dr Mujezinovic at some point in time in Zenica; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. After your release from the Vitez area, did you join the Armija?

A. After a month and a half again I joined a formation of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I was appointed head of the transportation service in the brigade.

Q. Are you currently serving as a member of the Armija?

A. Yes, I am an active officer. I am a lieutenant. I am ²³⁵³ in charge of the transportation service.

MR. HARMON: Thank you very much, Mr. Kavazovic. I have no additional questions of you but the Defence lawyers will be asking you some questions and the judges will be asking you some questions.

Your Honours, I would ask to move into evidence the following Prosecutor's exhibits; 45C, 29G, 56C, 50C, 51A, 59A and 99.

JUDGE JORDA: No objection?

MR. NOBILO: No, your Honour.

JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman, no objection? No objection. Very well, Mme Fauveau, these exhibits will be admitted into evidence according to the statement of the Prosecutor.

Now you are going to be asked a certain number of questions by the Defence counsel, the lawyers of General Blaskic. I do not know whether it is going to be Mr. Nobilo -- yes, it is Mr. Nobilo. You have the floor, sir.

Cross-examined by MR. NOBILO

Q. Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Mr. Kavazovic. As you have heard, I am Anto Nobilo, the attorney of General Blaskic and I would like to put a few questions to you.

Tell me, in the JNA, you got a certain rank. Did ²³⁵⁴ you attend reserve officers' school or how did this happen?

A. I did my military service in Delnice in Croatia. I attended a course for corporals and after that, I completed my military service.

Q. Were you a reserve officer after that and were you asked to attend additional courses and exercises?

A. Yes, in Turbe once I went for exercises and that was all, nothing more than that.

Q. You said that in 1992, you joined the Territorial Defence. I would like to know whether this was voluntary or were you called up?

A. It was voluntary, I was not called up.

Q. Who did you report to?

A. I reported in Vitez. Zenada Causev was the woman who was in charge of the people who were volunteering to join the Territorial Defence.

Q. Tell me, you reported to Zenada. Did you immediately get a uniform and arms?

A. No, we did not have arms then. I was wearing civilian clothes and for about 15 days, we were coming in just like that in civilian clothes. We reported in, and at that time in Zljeme the Yugoslav People's Army were creating problems, they were supposed to leave warehouses so we were just told to report in every other ²³⁵⁵ day and that is what we would do, and then we would go back again.

Q. Did you participate in the actions in Zljeme?

A. No.

Q. When did you get an uniform?

A. I did not get a real uniform. From Soko Mostar, we got blue overalls, I think from the airport. I do not know. We got this from Kresevo, so we got these overalls that are usually worn by aircraft mechanics. The Territorial Defence first had these blue uniforms, so it was not camouflage uniforms, but these were two-piece uniforms, overalls and matching blue jackets. That is all the Territorial Defence had until June, I think, from April to June. We wore them for about two months.

Q. But otherwise in the Territorial Defence were uniforms a problem?

A. Yes.

Q. So there were members who did not have uniforms?

A. Yes.

Q. When you were first arrested by the HVO, you said that you were questioned about the Territorial Defence, and that you did not tell them anything; you did not know anything or you did not want to tell them anything?

A. This was not my responsibility. I simply was not ²³⁵⁶ responsible for that. I did not have any answers to give them.

Q. I do not understand. Did you know how to answer some of their questions and you did not want to answer them or did you simply not know how to give an answer?

A. I did not know how to answer some of these questions. I did not understand some of these questions. When they asked me what Territorial Defence was and why it was there, how could I explain that? How could I know?

Q. Do you agree with me when I say that you had a relatively important position already in 1992 in view of your age, that you were head of transportation? Can you tell me, in 1992, for example in the second half of 1992, how was the Territorial Defence in the municipality of Vitez organised? Where were its headquarters and what were the units that existed?

A. The headquarters of the Territorial Defence in Vitez in 1992 were in the high school in Vitez, Boris Kidric high school in Vitez.

Q. Was there a staff platoon or someone else who was guarding you?

A. I do not know, I have no idea.

Q. You do not know; you were the driver of Hakija Cengic right?

A. Yes. ²³⁵⁷

Q. And you do not know?

A. No, I really do not know. I was not involved. I do not think there was that kind of platoon because we did not have uniforms. People asked for uniforms and we did not have any. We could not give them any, so we would come to Vitez, report in and then we would go back after two days as I said.

Q. That is what you did say for the first half of 1992, but the second half, when you got those blue overalls, in the second half of 1992, was there a platoon that was protecting the command?

A. I do not know, I really do not know.

Q. Was there a battalion of the Territorial Defence in Vitez?

A. No, there was not.

Q. Was there a detachment of the TO in Visoko with Hakija Dzelilovic?

A. I do not know.

Q. Was there one in Preocica?

A. I do not know.

Q. Was there a TO detachment in Poculice?

A. I do not know.

Q. You have never heard of it?

A. I have heard of Poculice.

Q. But the TO detachment? ²³⁵⁸

A. No.

Q. Was there a TO detachment in Dubravica?

A. Dubravica, that means Croat population.

Q. I am asking you whether it was there in 1992?

A. I do not know.

Q. Was there one in Hanka Panija?

A. I do not know about Hanka Panija.

JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo, you have already said, because you know the language, you are going very fast, but could you please slow down for the benefit of the interpreters.

MR. NOBILO: Certainly. Was there a TO detachment in Stari Vitez?

A. I do not know.

Q. Was there a TO detachment in Kolonija in Vitez?

A. No.

Q. Was there a TO detachment in Kruscica?

A. I do not know.

Q. Was there a TO detachment in Vraniska?

A. I do not know.

Q. Was there a logistics centre of the Territorial Defence?

A. Logistics centre of the Territorial Defence, yes. In the municipal headquarters in Vitez, in a private house, there was a logistics base, but it was not really a logistics base. Flour and food were there. ²³⁵⁹

Q. Were there weapons there?

A. Some weapons that I mentioned.

Q. Was there a communications unit then?

A. No.

Q. Anti-aircraft platoon -- antisabotage platoon?

A. Could you please repeat what you said.

Q. Antisabotage platoon?

A. No.

Q. As the head of transportation unit for the Territorial Defence, what was your task?

A. As head of the transportation section, first of all I only had four vehicles. My task was to provide a vehicle when the Commander was supposed to go and talk to the HVO and he was supposed to attend joint meetings. I was the one who would have to take care of who would drive him when I stopped driving his vehicle; then I appointed two new drivers for him. They would alternate every other day. So when the Commander would have this meeting, for example he would tell me, "I have a meeting at the hotel Vitez and I need a vehicle to take me to the hotel Vitez." I had to make sure that the Commander could always have one of these four vehicles for his purposes.

Q. These four cars, were all of them passenger cars?

A. There was a private van and there were two that belonged ²³⁶⁰ to the former joint Territorial Defence headquarters.

Q. What did you do with the van? What did you transport in it and where did it go?

A. When flour was supposed to be brought in, when food was supposed to be prepared, the van would go and collect that. We would simply carry out the Commander's orders.

Q. Food. Where did you bring food in from and where did you take it?

A. What place? From the store for instance from Princip we would get nine meals at one point in time. That is where the HVO also obtained their breakfast from, and if they did not have a vehicle to bring in the breakfast to the school or to another building, we would send our van in to bring in breakfast or lunch or whatever.

Q. Did you ever drive the Commander to certain villages of the Vitez municipality?

A. No, we did not get out of town at all while I was driving, and after that, I do not know.

Q. But towards the end of 1992 when you became head of the transportation service, your drivers, did they go to some villages and other places in the Vitez municipality?

A. No, I think that you have as evidence these papers giving instructions where to go, for example Vitez Lokava; from the high school to his home, which was ²³⁶¹ nearby, and then for example from the high school to the police department down there or to the hotel.

Q. So we can conclude that you were head of the transportation service, your drivers, your vehicles were driving around Vitez.

A. Yes, in that part of town and Stari Vitez for example.

Q. So it is within the town of Vitez. So that is the service you headed?

A. Yes.

Q. All right, thank you. You were the driver of the Commander. How many people were there in the headquarters of the Territorial Defence?

A. I do not know about that. I did not have access to that.

Q. Do you know the names of these people? Do you know some of the people who were members of the headquarters?

A. I knew Sajic Jelko.

Q. In the second half of 1992?

A. In the second half of 1992. I knew the Commander and I knew Zenada Causev.

Q. So two persons?

A. I knew two persons.

Q. And you were head of the transportation service?

A. I was head of the transportation service. I am sorry, I knew my boss at logistics, but logistics is something ²³⁶² different from the headquarters. There were different commanders at the headquarters and different commanders at logistics.

Q. All right, I asked you about the headquarters, the staff. You knew two people.

Tell me, this conflict in October in Ahmici, when that occurred, did you have any contact with someone from Ahmici or somebody else in your presence, either by radio or by telephone?

A. I do not know. I do not think so; I do not know.

Q. You do not think so or --

A. I do not know, I simply do not know. At any rate, I know what I saw.

Q. I am asking you: did someone in your presence speak over the radio with someone in Ahmici?

A. No.

Q. Before the morning when you went to Visoko, when you were coming back from Ahmici, when were you coming back from Ahmici, at what time?

A. About 1.30, I think.

Q. All right. At 1.30, was the conflict over?

A. No, the conflict had only started. I got into the fire, I was passing through Ahmici, I saw one house burning, another house burning, a third house burning. I did not understand what was happening. When I came to Vitez ²³⁶³ people were standing there in uniforms, by the buildings, and I went to logistics. I managed to reach logistics and nobody stopped me, I do not know why.

Q. Did you hear shooting when you were passing through Ahmici?

A. Yes, I heard shooting.

Q. Did you see any roadblocks?

A. There was a checkpoint but it was moved aside.

Q. In the morning, did you go to Visoko the same day when you came back?

A. I went in the morning.

Q. What did you see in the morning as you were passing to Visoko?

A. I saw houses, normal houses.

Q. Was there a checkpoint there, a roadblock? What did it consist of?

A. Of tyres and also two rails from a railroad that were we welded together so that you cannot pass with a heavy truck; you cannot move very fast. That is what I saw.

Q. Did somebody guard that roadblock?

A. Yes, I knew his name; I cannot remember it now. It was a member of the HVO, and also there was a similar roadblock at the railway station, so in Ahmici, a member of the HVO guarded this point.

Q. That is what you are saying? ²³⁶⁴

A. Yes, he was sitting there on a chair. I imagine he was guarding it.

Q. So whose checkpoint was it, of the HVO?

A. Yes.

Q. Thank you. Did you have any offers to switch to the HVO at the beginning of 1992?

A. Yes.

Q. Who made the offer?

A. Anto Furundzija on one occasion told me that I could be transferred to the HVO, that I would have a higher salary, because our earnings were low. I cannot remember exactly. Those were the first BH dinars, very little anyway, and he told me, "Why do you not join with us? You will have a much better salary in Deutschemarks", but I did not want to.

Q. Why did you not? It is normal to go where you are better paid?

A. That depends on the individual.

Q. What was your opinion?

A. I had my opinion. I did not think money was everything.

Q. What was your opinion?

A. That is my private view; I do not think that big money seems so much. To this day I do not think it is everything.

Q. So you do not want to explain to us? ²³⁶⁵

A. No.

JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Nobilo, you have asked the same question four times. You have been given an answer. He answered your question. It is his point of view.

MR. NOBILO: Yes, I was going to go on to another question. When you were arrested for the first time, was any reference made to this fact that you had refused to join the HVO?

A. The first time? A little bit, yes. Vlado Santic asked me why I would not joint the HVO and I had to say that I just did not want to.

Q. Do you know that a general mobilisation was proclaimed and a state of war in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

A. I do not know what you mean. For the whole population or for certain segments?

Q. Do you know that the President of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Alija Izetbegovic, the President of the whole state, had proclaimed a state of war and a general mobilisation?

A. No, I did not know.

Q. The day you saw the roadblock at Ahmici held by the HVO, which road did you take to Visoko from Vitez to Ahmici and from Ahmici -- where?

A. I was going to Lasva then Bila Selo (?), from Bilesevo to Kakanj, from Kakanj to Mostar and Visoko.

Q. Was it not closer to take the road from Busovaca and ²³⁶⁶ Kiseljak to Visoko?

A. Yes, but you had to be able to pass along that route.

Q. What was the problem?

A. It was a dangerous road.

Q. You mean there were potholes or curves or what?

A. It is a very dangerous road, there were lots of curves.

Q. So that was the only reason?

A. Yes.

Q. Why were you driving from Visoko to Vitez and what was -- which location in Visoko did you go to?

A. I went to Mostre near Visoko.

Q. What was situated there?

A. The Muslims were there who had gone there because the attack had started on Visoko. The JNA had attacked. They had attacked Bosnia-Herzegovina and I do not know under whose orders people were told to go there to be in a state of alert.

Q. So obviously you went to take something there?

A. I did not go to take anything. I just went there by orders of the Commander to see whether any vehicles were necessary there, and on my way back to Visoko, the factory at Kovin -- I think it is a steel mill mostly -- the TO at the time had some shells, 120 millimetre, I think. I do not understand them very well, but they did not have additional charge and they were literally ²³⁶⁷ confiscated from the JNA without fuses and without additional charge and by orders of somebody called Mevludin from Breza. He was a commander there; I do not know his surname. Mevludin was his name. He told me to take that back to Vitez, to the Princip Selo factory so they can try and manufacture what was necessary. So I transported 34 or 35 shells, not I but people loaded these shells into the Fiat van that I was driving. It was in private property; it did not belong to the army. I do not remember the owner's name; the man was living in Germany and he lent it to the TO, so I loaded these shells and set off.

Q. So you picked up those shells by chance? Where did you take them?

A. I took them to the house where the logistics was. That is where I arrived with the van.

Q. Was it just a van or was it a convoy?

A. No, there was no convoy.

Q. You said that when you arrived, the city was blocked.

A. Yes.

Q. What do you imply when you say "blocked"?

A. In my view, when I say "blocked", it means when civilians do not walk the streets, when they are prohibited from walking, when there is only the military in the town, when civilians cannot move freely. I did ²³⁶⁸ not see a single civilian walking in town. The shops were not working, the cafes and restaurants were not working, it was not a Saturday or a Sunday, holiday day; it was a working day, as far as I remember. There were checkpoints: at Rijeka there was a checkpoint; this is a kind of blockade. There was a checkpoint at the railway station. That is a blockade too, as well as this one in Ahmici.

Q. So there were three HVO checkpoints that you saw?

A. Yes.

Q. Very briefly, this Motorola that you mentioned, is it the small hand-held radio station?

A. I did not mention a Motorola.

Q. You mentioned a Motorola several times during your testimony.

A. As a device.

Q. Motorola is a trademark. It can imply anything so what I am asking is, what do you call a Motorola? What is it you mean when you say Motorola?

MR. HARMON: Excuse me, your Honour, there seems to be a fairly vigorous debate going on between counsel and the witness but I do not think the translators are getting any part of it. I certainly am not. I ask that Mr. Nobilo ask his question and give the witness time to answer the question. ²³⁶⁹

JUDGE JORDA: Objection sustained. Please, think of the interpreters, the Prosecution and, of course, the judges.

MR. NOBILO: I am referring to the question put to you by the Prosecution when you spoke of a Motorola. Is it a hand radio station, a portable radio station?

A. Yes.

Q. You are a professional military man. What is the range of a portable radio station if there is no relay?

A. It depends on the model. It depends on the type. Some such radios have 12 kilometres, 8 kilometres; it depends on the model.

Q. You were asked about Mujahedins in Stari Vitez. Were there any Mujahedins in Stari Vitez?

A. No. I do not know whether you know what a Mujahedin is.

Q. I am asking you. In prison with you was Patkovic Muhamed and Ahmic Cazim. Were they members of the TO?

A. Yes, they were with me in the rear. They worked with me in the rear.

Q. What were their positions?

A. Muhamed Patkovic was an officer for logistics. Cazim Ahmic was an officer for logistics, communications, organisation of the rear.

Q. You said that the Muslims did not have free access to the hotel Vitez. ²³⁷⁰

A. Yes.

Q. Could Croatian civilians enter the hotel Vitez?

A. No.

Q. Therefore civilians could not enter the hotel?

A. No, it was a command-post. It was the headquarters.

Q. In 1992 and 1993, did the discotheque in the Vitez hotel operate in the basement?

A. No.

Q. What about the brewery?

A. I do not think so, but I do not know.

Q. And the restaurant?

A. I do not know about that either.

Q. Did you ever see Tihomir Blaskic in 1992?

A. No.

Q. Did you see him in Vitez ever?

A. No.

Q. On 15th April, let us take that date, do you know what the deployment of BH-Army units was around Vitez?

A. Could you please repeat the question?

Q. On 15th April 1993, let us take the period around that date, do you know, in Vitez municipality, where units of the BH-Army were located?

A. No.

Q. Have you ever heard of the 325th Mountain Brigade of the BH-Army? ²³⁷¹

A. I have heard of it.

Q. Where did the fighters of this brigade come from and where did the brigade operate in 1993?

A. I do not know, I was a member of the TO staff.

Q. On 15th April 1993, did you have any weapons in your house?

A. No.

Q. None at all?

A. No.

Q. You said that you had to take off your uniform and leave your weapons in the headquarters when you went home to Vitez because it was under HVO control. Why? Why did you have to take your uniform off?

A. Because I did not dare move around as a member of the TO. I was not allowed to by the HVO. Not just I but no one. Under HVO control, it was prohibited for members of the TO to wear a uniform. Even the Commander himself did not dare go in the area under HVO control because he would be either captured or shot at. We did not dare and we were not allowed to.

Q. Could HVO members walk around in uniform?

A. Yes, they could.

MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, do you think this would be a convenient moment for the break? Are you planning the break now or shall I pass on to a document? Perhaps ²³⁷² this might be a suitable moment before I pass on to this document.

JUDGE JORDA: Yes, that is exactly the question that I was going to ask you. Do you still have many questions to put to this witness?

MR. NOBILO: Yes, I do.

JUDGE JORDA: Very well then, let us have the break as usual and resume at 11.40.

(11.20 am)

(A short break)

(11.40 am)

JUDGE JORDA: The hearing is resumed. Please bring in the accused.

(Accused brought in)

JUDGE JORDA: Very well. Mr. Nobilo?

MR. NOBILO: I would like to ask the usher for his assistance. I should like a document to be shown to the witness. (Handed).

Mr. President, your Honours, unfortunately we do not have the translation into English because during the cross-examination, the need suddenly arose for showing this document. It is very brief.

JUDGE JORDA: There is no translation?

MR. NOBILO: English or French, because we suddenly realised we need this document. It is a brief document and ²³⁷³ I will read it.

JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Prosecutor, any comments? The judge cannot make any comments because we do not have a French translation. What do you think about it.

MR. HARMON: I am in the same position, your Honour; I cannot make any comments about it.

JUDGE JORDA: Very well. We will have confidence in the Defence and in the interpreters, so we are not going to deprive the Defence of submitting this document during the cross-examination.

Mr. Nobilo, please read slowly so that everyone can understand the meaning and the impact of this document. Let us continue.

MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President. Let me just remind the court that we ended with the statement, before the break, made by the witness that he was not allowed to wear uniform as other members of the BH-Army were not allowed to wear uniforms, whereas HVO people could wear uniforms.

The document in the heading says: "The Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, the Croatian Defence Council, the Command of the Viteska Brigade. Defence military secret, strictly confidential."

The number is 01/117/93; Vitez, 8th April 1993. ²³⁷⁴ Heading:

"Prohibition of movement of uniformed persons wearing arms in inhabited areas."

The text: "Due to the frequency of disturbances of public law and order, murders, wounding, threats with force of arms, opening fire on settlements, as well as due to the deterioration of the overall security situation, on the basis of the orders of the Commander, Colonel Tihomir Blaskic, I hereby order:

"(1) in all inhabited areas and roads, the movement of persons wearing uniforms and carrying weapons should be prohibited if military personnel are not performing official duty, except in the course of their departure for the battle front or their return from the frontlines;

"(2) officers of the HVO military police shall be obliged to disarm all armed men, to make a record of the weapons and store it in the brigade warehouse, and report to the command of the same;

"(3) in the event of opposition, the person shall be taken to the premises of the military police, a statement shall be taken from him, and, if necessary, he shall be remanded in custody and charges placed against him with the corresponding military court; ²³⁷⁵ "(4) short-barrelled weapons (pistols, revolvers and the like) may be worn by persons only with the appropriate permits, and long-barrelled weapons by members of the military police and the civilian police. "(5) This order shall be carried out in inhabited areas and communication lines by seeking IDs and searching individuals and M through V" -- I am not aware of what that means, probably motor vehicles. "(6) Any person who opens fire in inhabited areas without authorisation shall be immediately captured, disarmed, regardless of any permit, and charges brought against that person to the competent commander. "(7) All subordinate commanders shall be held responsible for the implementation of these orders." Signed: Commander of the Brigade, Mario Cerkez. Copies submitted to the Commander Anto Bertovic, to the commanders of independent units, one copy to the Commander of the military police and one copy to the archives or the records.

JUDGE JORDA: Yes, so obviously this exhibit needs to be translated into English and French.

MR. NOBILO: It will be done subsequently.

JUDGE JORDA: Thank you.

MR. NOBILO: Mr. Kavazovic, have you heard of an order of this kind? ²³⁷⁶

A. No.

Q. Now that you have seen it, do you still claim that only members of the TO could not walk around in uniforms?

A. Yes. In this order, reference is made only to units of the HVO. Where is the TO staff? Does it exist here? Has the order been issued that no one should move around in uniform outside his working place? Is there any mention of the TO staff in Vitez? How can I know that the HVO gave these orders that I am not allowed to move around in uniform when it was not submitted to the TO staff at all?

Q. But did you not tell us a moment ago that you knew that you were not allowed to move around in uniform?

A. I knew as far as I personally was concerned. We all knew, because the HVO disarmed only Muslims, not Croats. Croats could carry long-barrelled guns. How is that, if I as a Muslim was not allowed to carry such guns according to these orders -- how is it possible that HVO and Croats could carry such weapons? Not just the police, but many other people outside the police. I knew this as far as I personally was concerned, and I apologise to the court, but I must explain. Your Honours, I have to explain something a moment ago when I was asked by Mr. Nobilo regarding my job, the duties I performed. I do not agree, I was head of the ²³⁷⁷ transportation service, but only for the municipal staff of Vitez; that is for the town. I was not head of the whole transportation service. I only had four vehicles, and I was not responsible for the rest of the transportation. I have to explain this, so that it should not be understood that I was responsible for transportation as a whole. I was responsible only for the town of Vitez. As for other transportation, that was not my responsibility.

JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kavazovic, the court thanks you for this clarification which I think you made clear already during your testimony. We have all understood that you had four vehicles.

Now let us go back to the question of Mr. Nobilo. Have you finished with that question or do you wish to continue? I think the witness has answered. Do you wish to pursue that question further? You can put it in some other way. If not, please proceed to another question.

MR. NOBILO: Just one more question. Despite these orders, you saw HVO members in uniform and carrying long-barrelled guns. Does that mean that the order was not respected?

A. No, it was not.

Q. In connection with the statement that you just made on ²³⁷⁸ your own initiative regarding the municipal TO, was it responsible for the town of Vitez or the municipality of Vitez?

A. Only the town of Vitez, not the municipality. The municipality is something else and the TO for Vitez applies only to the town itself.

Q. Why was it called the municipal staff of TO if it is not responsible for the municipality of Vitez?

A. I do not know; do not ask me that. I do not know how to answer that question, why it was called that.

Q. You said that there was tension on the 15th and the city was blocked. In your Territorial Defence headquarters, did you receive any information in that connection, in terms of mounting tension or something?

A. That day, the gentlemen from the HVO and the army had a meeting at the fire brigade building in Mahala. The atmosphere was normal, they talked, I do not know what they were talking about. I completed my work and I went home. When I came back, I heard that my Commander came in. He said, "It is over, the meeting. I had a meeting." I asked him with whom and he said he had a meeting with the HVO. That was on the 15th. Then I went home. However, nobody told me a thing and I did not know anything, believe me. I did not know what was going on, I just knew that I had to change in order to ²³⁷⁹ get home safely. This was for the sake of my personal safety.

Q. In the TO headquarters, were senior officers on duty all the time?

A. I do not really understand your question. Could you please repeat it?

Q. On the day of the 15th or the night between the 15th and 16th April 1993, in the headquarters of the Territorial Defence, were there senior officers who were on duty and was this extraordinary? Were they on duty all the time?

A. No.

Q. In Stari Vitez, do you know how many soldiers there were in the night before the conflict?

A. I do not know.

Q. Did the Territorial Defence in Stari Vitez have a military police?

A. It had 13 military policemen, something like that. At any rate, I know there were 13 military policemen in Stari Vitez.

Q. Was there any civilian police?

A. There was civilian police. I do not know how many of them, but there was a civilian police, and after they were moved out of the MUP by the HVO, they were located up there.

Q. As concerns the tensions that you noticed: did you know ²³⁸⁰ that Zivko Totic, the Commander of the HVO brigade from Zenica, had been abducted?

A. No.

Q. Do you know Darko Kraljevic the Commander of the Vitezovi?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you hear about the ambush that the BH-Army had laid for him near Vitez on 13th April?

A. Could you repeat the date for me?

Q. 13th April.

A. No.

Q. Two or three days before the conflict.

A. No.

Q. Did you hear about the attack on Darko Kraljevic in Novi Travnik on 12th April?

A. Darko Kraljevic was attacked in Novi Travnik? I did not hear about that.

Q. Did you hear about the abduction of four officers, HVO officers, in Novi Travnik on 13th April?

A. No.

Q. Did you hear about the burning of ten Croatian flags in Travnik, in Novi Travnik?

A. No.

Q. When you mentioned that you came with that van of yours, when you were arrested, and when there was a roadblock ²³⁸¹ in Ahmici, you mentioned that you arrived in the village of Mostre. Where is Mostre?

A. Near Visoko.

Q. Near Visoko? How far away from Visoko?

A. I do not know exactly, perhaps 500 metres away or a kilometre away; I cannot tell really.

Q. When you saw this tense situation, you said that you went for a walk with your wife.

A. Yes.

Q. What was the reason for doing this, in order to observe the situation or just for the sake of going for a walk?

A. I just wanted to see what was going on in town. I did not understand what was going on in town.

Q. When you realised what was going on in town, did you report your observations to the TO headquarters in Vitez because you were a military person?

A. I did not have any way of reporting because I was a civilian.

Q. A telephone?

A. A telephone where there was HVO command? No Muslims could have telephones that day from 10.00 to 3.00 or at other times, only a certain number of Croats in Vitez had access to telephones. Nobody else, all other telephone lines were cut off.

Q. On 16th April 1993, did you consider yourself to be a ²³⁸² military man or a civilian?

A. A civilian.

Q. You described mortar shelling on the 16th. Did you hear any other shooting, any other signs of a battle?

A. Yes, I did; they were shooting all over the place. It is very hard to tell. I could watch the place where the shooting was going on. I could not see a great deal, but there was a lot of shooting going on and it was very loud, but from what sides, I do not know.

Q. Was Vitez shelled on the 16th, the part that was held by the HVO?

A. I do not know -- no, I do not think so. I do not know what you are actually referring to, what positions.

Q. The positions of the HVO in Vitez: were they shelled by artillery or mortars on 16th April 1993?

A. My father-in-law lived in the centre of town, so there was shooting, but I do not know whether it was shelling. I cannot tell, because the lines were removed -- they were not in the centre of town where my father-in-law lived, so I did not know exactly.

Q. On 17th April, was Vitez shelled then, a day later?

A. I do not know again.

Q. On the 18th and 19th until you were arrested, was Vitez shelled?

A. Where I lived, in that part of town, there were not any ²³⁸³ shells, but I heard -- people told me that shells fell near the pharmacy and elsewhere. I heard about this from people, Croats, from when I was still there until I was taken to the SDK.

Q. Please help us, the pharmacy, is that the part of Vitez which was under HVO control?

A. Yes.

Q. Above the SDK?

A. No, not above the SDK, next door to a cafe which is called Benz.

Q. Was there a siren that went off in Vitez?

A. Yes, the sirens were alerted, two or three of them.

Q. Again I wish to draw your attention to something. You are a military man. Can you recognise signals?

A. Yes, these were sirens of general danger.

Q. You said that together with you there were people from the age of 12 onwards.

A. Hrustipasic Edin was 12 years old, together with his brother who was about 19. Hrustipasic Muharem and Hrustipasic Enver, their father. The three of them were from the same building that my father-in-law lived in. I only knew my father-in-law and the neighbours who lived next door; they knew that I was his son-in-law so when they were taken away, this 12-year-old boy was taken away too. His mother cried and she tried to ²³⁸⁴ explain, but this colleague of mine said that he would have to come along with us, that he would be safer in the SDK than over there, but the other thing proved to be true, that it was not safer at the SDK rather than at home.

Q. Your departure to the SDK, was this a service that your friend did to you? How do you explain this?

A. In a way, it was a service, but in a way, it was also forcible. You know, when you dare not stay some place because -- if you know that you will be arrested, that you will be taken away from that place, somebody who does not know you will come and there will be problems, but then on the other hand, if you look at it, if this is a friend of mine, he is going to protect me, so this colleague of mine helped me in one way, but in this other way in which he could not help me, it is not his fault.

Q. Were you informed that you were the person they were looking for because you were a TO officer?

A. Yes, I did have such information. This colleague of mine told me that too. He guarded the building. You know, Vitez is a small town and we all knew each other there. Everybody knew about me, that I worked in the Territorial Defence, that I was a member of the Territorial Defence, so that was a major reason for ²³⁸⁵ being afraid, knowing that people from all quarters came into the town of Vitez. I was not afraid of the people who knew me from Vitez, but I was afraid of those people who did not know me.

Q. The young boy aged 12, was he in the SDK all the time?

A. Yes, he was at the SDK all the time. He did not go anywhere. He did not go out to dig trenches, no.

Q. Now we have come to the digging of trenches. You showed us where trenches were dug and now I am trying to ask you to try to reconstruct where HVO lines were. I am going to place a map on the easel now, so let us try to see where HVO lines were, what you saw on the left-hand side and the right-hand side, and where did the people from the BH-Army see you from and where did they possibly shoot from.

MR. HARMON: Mr. President, may I approach?

MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, this is an identical map to the one we had before, that is to say made by the JNA, 1 to 50,000, and this is a general map that was used in the former Yugoslavia, in the JNA, the TO, et cetera. Let us move on to Kratine, please. You said that you saw four HVO units in a defence line. In your opinion, where did they hold this defence line?

A. Perhaps I will not be able to indicate this exactly on a map. I cannot say exactly whether it was here, but ²³⁸⁶ approximately over here (indicates).

MR. HARMON: Excuse me, Mr. President. If a mark is going to be made on the map it may be more accurate if the witness marks the map instead of counsel, because I think the witness is in the best position to make the marks on the map. I would ask that that be the modus operandi.

JUDGE JORDA: I agree.

MR. NOBILO: Please draw the line where it was. I think you can see this approximately. To the left-hand side and to the right-hand side, as far as you could see, so you were not only digging trenches but you could also see these lines. Thank you. Could you tell us now, as opposed to that, at what distance were BH-Army lines?

A. This part is covered by forest (indicates). There is a forest here, and here you can see it, but they were in Kuber, here. All of this is Kuber. I cannot tell exactly what the distance is, that is impossible, but in these clearings, I could personally see it, for example here (indicates), the line is about 2 kilometres away. I am not sure because I could not really count, so, as far as the Territorial Defence is concerned, that is what I can approximately say. I do not know what the distance is.

Q. Can you approximately show us where Kuber is, which part ²³⁸⁷ was held by the BH-Army. Just approximately; it is not that important at this point.

A. Over here (indicates). It is hard to explain that.

Q. On the left-hand side and on the right-hand side from this area; who held what? Did you see anything?

A. I could not really watch because we all had to do what we were told. We did not have much time to think who was left and who was right, but this is the only thing I could see. When I went to dig here, for example, the Jokers were on the left and another unit was there, I do not know exactly which one, and then on this part over here, this is where the Jokers were for example on the left-hand side.

Then when we built part of the -- when we dug part of the trenches they needed, they -- we moved on to the MUP part. That is where we were guarded by a person from the MUP and then we were supposed to go and cut the forest further for the military police. Then we were covering dugouts for the military police and we finished by working for the HVO, and Ivica was there. He was realistic, he was very kind to us; he even allowed us to smoke a cigarette. He simply did not behave like the rest of them, and that is how I managed to see which unit it was, because when I was working for the Jokers I was guarded by a Joker guard, and then, when I went to ²³⁸⁸ dig further on, then I was guarded -- not only I but all the rest of us were guarded by one of their men.

Q. This first location, can you show me where HVO positions were there at Rijeka?

A. Yes, at Rijeka.

Q. Which way were they facing?

A. Up here. They were facing Kruscica; I do not know where.

Q. Can you indicate where the BH-Army was?

A. No, I could not see that. You can see it in the other picture. There is a forest there, and our person told us, "Your people are out there and if you start running away, they will start shooting at you too", so we were just digging those trenches and I really do not know where they were.

Q. But in what direction did he show when he said, "Your people are over there"?

A. They showed this direction.

Q. Can you mark it please?

MR. HARMON: Objection, your Honour. Are we marking the direction where they were or are we marking what is supposed to be the positions of the ABiH? The witness has testified twice he did not know where the positions of the ABiH were. He has indicated --

JUDGE JORDA: Will Mr. Nobilo be more precise in his ²³⁸⁹ question? It is the direction. The other witness referred to this too, before this witness, so please be more specific in your question.

MR. NOBILO: So please indicate the direction in which they showed you the BH-Army was, the BH-Army positions. Okay.

JUDGE JORDA: Let us make it clear in the transcript: this is not a real military assertion; it is indirect testimony. Are we agreed? The witness is indicating what he was told. He was told this.

A. Yes, that is what I was told, so I cannot warrant that.

MR. NOBILO: Can we conclude that you are precisely stating what HVO lines were and you only know the direction in which BH-Army units were?

A. Let me tell you, this is not very precise either. I am showing you approximately where we were digging, so this is not very precise. I cannot do anything very precisely: this is a map.

Q. Can we mark this with the date of 24th April 1993?

A. Yes -- let me think. The 23rd.

Q. Which date shall we put here?

A. The 28th, but over here, please, the 22nd, not the 23rd and up here you can put the 27th or the 28th. It is not the entire period of time I spent there; these are just two dates. ²³⁹⁰

Q. On that day, do you know any other positions of the BH-Army or the HVO as they were on that date?

MR. HARMON: Excuse me, your Honour, I am not sure which day we are referring to. There are two dates referred to on the map, 22nd April and 28th April.

MR. NOBILO: This position by Rijeka is on 22nd April 1993. The position near Kratine and Kuber is on 28th April 1993.

JUDGE JORDA: Do you agree? Does the Prosecutor agree with the Defence?

MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I agree those are the dates indicated on the map. I do not know what the question is.

JUDGE JORDA: You are the person who asked the question, Mr. Harmon.

MR. HARMON: I agree.

MR. NOBILO: The next question: do you know of any other positions of the HVO or the BH-Army in April 1993?

A. I do not, but I know for example -- I know the area where people were digging trenches, where they were taken to dig trenches. I was not there, but when I came back to the SDK, I talked to people who were taken out to dig -- let me just explain this to you. They were taken to Dubravica, Sivrino Selo, Krcevine. I do not know whether this is a line but this is where they were ²³⁹¹ taken out to dig canals, people from the SDK, just as I was taken to Kratine and Rijeka.

Q. Do you agree that that which you heard about, that people were digging trenches for the HVO, that we only mark that area that you heard about with a circle, so we just circle the area.

A. Yes, but this circle can only show the place where they were digging trenches. Pirici, Sivrino Selo, Dubravica, somewhere round there.

Q. Yes, please encircle it.

A. I cannot, because I do not know which part.

Q. Just circle it --

A. Because we are circling only the area where they were digging, not the actual trenches.

Q. So we are indicating with a circle the area in which you heard trenches were being dug there. In addition to that, do you know of any other position of the HVO or the army of the BH in April 1993?

A. No.

MR. NOBILO: Thank you. Mr. President, we should like to tender this as evidence.

MR. HARMON: No objection, your Honour.

JUDGE JORDA: It will be admitted into evidence. It will be exhibit -- Mme Fauveau, which number? ²³⁹²

THE REGISTRAR: It will be D50.

MR. NOBILO: Do you know who gave permission for people to be taken to dig trenches?

A. Somebody's approval had to be given. On the 21st, they came for men to take them for digging and the policeman, Dragan Calic, asked for approval, so that Zabac should write this approval. He wanted a piece of paper to be able to take people. He needed it from Zabac but I heard him personally when he said, "Let Zabac give me a piece of paper with this permission." I do not know whether this was instructions, but anyway there was something that was given, and on one occasion they did not give anything, when the first group was taken, and it was said that they would provide a piece of paper later, but anyway they selected the people as they wanted. There was not a list of people indicated, but they simply hand-picked them.

Q. Which unit did Zabac belong to?

A. He belonged to the military police.

Q. The line facing Kuber, you said that the HVO was there. What do you mean? Were they Home Guards?

A. It was the regular Croatian Defence Council with the insignia of the HVO and nothing more. The patch said "HVO" and two crossed rifles. That was their patch.

Q. Were they local people? ²³⁹³

A. They were people from Vitez.

Q. You were given some military training before the war, as you have explained. In the process, were you trained how to place antipersonnel mines?

A. I was an infantryman, 11,101 was the unit and I worked with training ammunition and weapons.

Q. But you were trained?

A. Yes.

Q. Did Furundzija know your rank?

A. Well he worked with me in the municipal staff until he deserted it.

Q. You said you were forced to go to Zenica. Let us clarify that point. Did anyone from the Red Cross force you to go to Zenica or was it the situation that forced you to go there?

A. The situation. No, no one from the Red Cross, but the situation in Vitez. Let me explain if I may. When I went to sign for the Croatian authorities -- not the Red Cross, the Croatian authorities -- where it said Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna, number, date and then statement, "I declare that I am voluntarily leaving for Zenica where I will continue to live and sojourn", but this was against my will.

I did not want to do that, but, considering that ²³⁹⁴ I was imprisoned in town, I was not a civilian who could freely move around the town, I was forced by the situation to choose Zenica, to go and live in Zenica, though I did not like Zenica, I liked Vitez. It is a much more attractive town and it has a higher standard of living. People were much better off, life was fine there. I had to go to Zenica where I had no accommodation, where I hardly knew anyone except this woman, this aunt of mine. So I was not in a position to stay in Vitez because of the situation that existed there at the time.

Q. Briefly, were you by the Red Cross or these HVO officials -- did you tell them that you did not wish to go or did you just make this statement?

A. I did say that to a woman working in the Red Cross. Her name was Alma, she was an interpreter, and somebody called Drita. I know they called her Drita; I do not know her exact name. I asked: is there any responsibility for me to stay in Vitez, with guarantees that tomorrow somebody will not come and evict me and force me to go and dig trenches? She answered, "I do not know", and then a woman called Gordana Badro -- she stood in for Zenada occasionally and she was there when I came to sign this piece of paper.

Q. You said that you knew Darko Kraljevic. What do you ²³⁹⁵ know about him and his unit?

A. I know he was born in Vitez. He lived at the crossroads with Kruscica, a suburb of Vitez; he was a Bosnian bully.

Q. What do you mean?

A. A man who liked to fight, who had a group that he headed. He had a cafe so he was quite well off. On one occasion I sat in that cafe. It was called Benz. He was sitting there at table, talking to somebody. I do not know who it was. He was in civilian clothes like me. He was the owner of the cafe.

Q. Do you know anything about his unit and his wartime activities?

A. No.

Q. When you came to Zenica, you joined the BH-Army?

A. I apologise, when I got to Zenica, for a month I had leave. I went to see a doctor because I was in a condition of stress, but after that, about a month or maybe 40 days, I went to the unit, I went to Istok 377th unit.

Q. As head of transportation?

A. Yes.

Q. You said 377th unit. In the course of 1993 when you were its member, did it have any positions in relation to the HVO? ²³⁹⁶

A. I do not know; I had only just arrived, so I do not know.

Q. But after a month, two, three, four months of work, by the end of 1993, what positions did the unit have?

A. I do not know; it was difficult to know. I did not enquire; I was not interested. I did my own work. There were two of us working there; my colleague was sick and then there was some replacements and I started working there, so I did not think about these things, which positions it held.

Q. I am asking you again, but what was your specific task?

A. My task was, when something is necessary to transport something, only within the scope of this unit, this particular unit, just as before I had duties limited to the municipal staff. When the Commander had to go to a meeting with the HVO I had to have a car and a driver ready to take him there, so similarly in this brigade, in the 377th, when food had to be transported or something, I was told and I took care of it. I had a superior who was in charge, who gave me the orders.

Q. So let me put it this way: where did you drive this food? Where were the locations you drove to?

A. Zenica, within the town of Zenica. Only within Zenica, the stadium, the bakery and things like that.

Q. So you never transported weapons? ²³⁹⁷

A. No, I did not, I never transported weapons while I was in that brigade.

Q. Yet you were chief of transport?

A. Let me explain. You say "chief of transport" as if it meant something important. I do not agree with that, because this was a small unit in the HVO in the 92nd brigade. There was a chief of transport too, but he knew nothing about what the Third Guards Brigade was doing. The same applies to me. So that you must bear this in mind.

Q. Can I put it to you differently? When you were a member of the 377th brigade, did you know where the positions of the BH-Army were and of the HVO in the municipalities of Busovaca and Vitez?

A. No. What I have encircled, that is what I know, nothing else.

Q. So you know nothing beyond this map?

A. What else could I know when I left for Zenica? Zenica was a town like Vitez and the chief of the 92nd regiment, the chief of transport in the 92nd regiment, did not know what others were doing.

Q. When did you first make a statement about these things to any official body?

A. I cannot remember --

MR. HARMON: Excuse me, your Honour, I am going to object. ²³⁹⁸ "These things" is vague.

JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Prosecutor, what is your objection?

MR. HARMON: The question was: when did you first make a statement about these things to anybody? That is a vague question. "These things" is not precise, and the witness --

JUDGE JORDA: Will you be more precise, Mr. Nobilo, please?

MR. NOBILO: Did you make a statement about the events you have been telling us about to any official body of the BH-Army?

A. I do not think so. I think not.

Q. Did you make a statement to anybody of the Ministry of the Interior, the civilian police?

A. No.

Q. Did you talk about these things that you have been talking about today with representatives of the secret service of the army?

A. No.

Q. Did you talk to representatives and the investigators of the OTP, of the Hague Tribunal?

A. No.

Q. Never?

A. I spoke to Ole only, the person I gave a statement to. I do not know who he is. Ole was his name, and I made a statement. ²³⁹⁹

Q. How many times, once or several times?

A. Only once.

MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President. As we did not have time to consult one another, with your permission Mr. Hayman would like to continue the cross-examination.

MR. HAYMAN: Only with respect to some prior English statements, your Honour.

MR. HARMON: I am going to object to that, your Honour.

JUDGE JORDA: First of all, Mr. Hayman, you wish to continue the cross-examination. We have said several things: first that we will have one counsel per witness. Then the Trial Chamber reflected upon it and, on condition that we gain time, we may, exceptionally, but only exceptionally, go back on that principle. Do you have exceptional reasons, Mr. Hayman, for asking this departure from the rule, after which I will consult my colleagues. This is the same question on which the Prosecutor is objecting?

MR. HARMON: That is correct, your Honour.

JUDGE JORDA: Let us hear Mr. Hayman, then the Prosecutor, then I will consult my colleagues.

MR. HAYMAN: We did not expect that it would be necessary for me to conduct any cross-examination of this witness and we did not plan for that to occur, but in light of the witness's testimony just this morning, there are four ²⁴⁰⁰ passages in his two prior written statements that must be brought to the attention of the Tribunal. Those are in English, and it is simply not practical for Mr. Nobilo to cross-examine or seek to impeach this witness using an English statement, because you have two BSC people with an attempted impeachment going on with a statement in a foreign language of which neither one of them has command.

That is the reason we seek, unexpectedly, that I be able to enquire into four limited areas. I can make an offer of proof as to exactly what those areas are; the court can determine how important they are, if that is necessary.

JUDGE JORDA: Let us hear Mr. Harmon.

MR. HARMON: Mr. President, the Trial Chamber made an order that in extraordinary circumstances, where circumstances could be well articulated, and that was supposed to be in rare circumstances, there could be double cross-examination. In this case, your Honour, no such circumstances were articulated before the cross-examination.

Secondly, your Honour, this witness has been on the stand since yesterday. He has testified since yesterday.

Thirdly, we have had in respect of Defence ²⁴⁰¹ exhibit, I believe, 49 where a whole document was read from Croatian and translated for the witness, that those particular passages can certainly be read in English, be translated for the witness and then Mr. Nobilo can continue cross-examining.

If we proceed, your Honour, with double cross-examination where there are not extraordinary circumstances, this examination of witnesses will protract the proceedings. So my objection is, your Honour, the circumstances that have been described are not exceptional and I would ask that Mr. Nobilo continue with the examination and the request be rejected.

JUDGE JORDA: I am going to consult with my colleagues. (Pause).

Mr. Hayman, this statement, was it in Croatian originally? Has it been translated into Croatian, the statement whose four passages you wish to refer to in your cross-examination? That is a question we are putting to you.

MR. HAYMAN: There are a total of four statements, three in English, one in BSC. The two English statements are nine pages --

JUDGE JORDA: Three statements in English?

MR. HAYMAN: Three in English, one in BSC and of the English statements, one has nine pages of single-spaced text, ²⁴⁰² the other also has nine pages, so there is a total of 18 pages of single-spaced English text, and those are the principal statements I need to enquire to, but quite frankly there are only four specific items, they are narrow; I think I can do them quickly.

JUDGE JORDA: (Pause). Regarding the three statements in English, Mr. Hayman will put the questioning and for the one in Serbo-Croatian, it is Mr. Nobilo who would question the witness. Perhaps Mr. Nobilo could finish his part of the cross-examination.

MR. NOBILO: Thank you, Mr. President. I will complete my part.

From the Office of the Prosecution, we received a part of a statement made on 7th May 1993 in the sector of security of the BH-Army, so it is a statement made by witness Kavazovic to the security body of the BH-Army, so I would like to ask him to look at it and to tell us whether on that date, he made such a statement. (Handed). We will not enter into the contents of the statement.

A. I apologise, your Honours, this is not my handwriting. I may have spoken to somebody, but I never wrote a statement. There is no signature, there is no name or surname and this is not my signature, so I cannot stand behind this statement. I may have spoken to somebody, ²⁴⁰³ but I did not write this statement.

Q. The question is whether you spoke to the security body or you did not speak to anybody. The question is not whether you wrote the statement. The question is: did you talk to anybody on this date?

A. I answered your questions to the best of my ability. I said I did not because I know I did not. Then you ask me about the international investigators from The Hague, and I did make two statements for Ole, one for Ole and somebody else; they changed while we were working. I knew they were investigators from The Hague; they came to see me and I made two statements for them. You caught me unawares; I did not have time to think about it when you asked me whether I had made those statements. Then you asked me whether I had made a statement to MUP. Why would I make a statement to MUP? MUP is not interested in that. MUP did not have time. I did speak to a colleague and this statement for the security sector; I did not make a statement to the security sector.

Q. I am going to repeat my question. On 7th May 1993 did you make a statement to the security body?

MR. HARMON: Objection, your Honour, he has already answered the question.

JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Harmon? ²⁴⁰⁴

MR. HARMON: Your Honour, the question has been asked and answered by the witness.

JUDGE JORDA: The question has been asked; the witness has answered. This is simply to recognise a statement. It is a statement that the court does not have, so this is some kind of an imaginary exchange between you and the witness as we do not have the exhibit. You have asked the witness to recognise the statement. If that is all, we do not need to have it. If we have to go further regarding that statement, then the Trial Chamber must have it. You have asked whether he recognises this statement and the witness said that he did not recognise it.

MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, my question was whether he made a statement to the security body of the BH-Army. This paper was meant simply to refresh his memory. He said many things, but he has not answered my question, whether he made a statement to that security body or not.

A. No, I have already said no. I apologise, your Honours.

JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kavazovic, you have said that you did not make a statement to officials of the BH-Army; is that so? Mr. Nobilo, let us make it quite clear.

MR. NOBILO: Yes, exactly that, I have received my answer, ²⁴⁰⁵ I have finished my cross-examination.

JUDGE JORDA: Very well. I think we are going to stop there; we will resume work at 3.00 pm. I wish to remind you, to hear Mr. Hayman. Mr. Nobilo?

MR. NOBILO: Mr. President, I forgot to enter these orders which were sight-translated as evidence under the same conditions as all the other exhibits have been tendered.

MR. HARMON: Exhibits have been tendered under two different sets of conditions. I take it, your Honour, the condition that counsel is talking about is that he does not want to identify the source of that document at this time. Is that correct? If he is able to --

JUDGE JORDA: That is a pertinent question, Mr. Nobilo. You have not identified this exhibit. We are getting a bit impatient. If it is so important, it has to be identified. I propose that we adjourn, think about the identification of this exhibit and we will see what we will do after the break.

(1.00 pm)

(Adjourned until 3.00 pm) ²⁴⁰⁶

(3.00 pm)

JUDGE JORDA: The hearing is resumed. Madam Registrar, will you please have the accused brought in.

(Accused brought in)

JUDGE JORDA: Is that right, madam Registrar: there is only going to be one guard for General Blaskic now? I have been told, General Blaskic, that you will be guarded by a single guard. Just one guard is going to be next to you to provide security and I hope that will not affect the hearing.

We can continue. We ended with the statement in Bosnian Serbo-Croat and I think there are also three statements in English for which, exceptionally, the Trial Chamber has allowed Mr. Hayman to intervene, instead of Mr. Nobilo.

Mr. Hayman, it is up to you now.

MR. HAYMAN: Thank you, your Honour, and firstly, to clarify our request with respect to exhibit D49, that is the order of Mario Cerkez dated April 8th 1993, the witness was not able to authenticate the document, so, although we believed it should be marked for identification, if the Prosecution objects on the grounds of authentication, we agree, we concede that it has not yet been authenticated and should not yet be admitted.

JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Prosecutor? I remind you, it is the ²⁴⁰⁷ document of the 8th April.

MR. HARMON: Yes, your Honour. Unless the Defence is able to authenticate these documents and identify the source, we will object to the admission of this document and we would move to have any reference to it in the transcript stricken.

MR. HAYMAN: I do not think there is a basis for that. I think there is a basis for it not to be admitted yet at this time but we are free to use any documents in cross-examining witnesses.

JUDGE JORDA: You think, Mr. Hayman, that at a certain point in the proceedings, you will be able to authenticate this exhibit, or not at all?

MR. HAYMAN: We hope to, your Honour. In our case, of course, we will have the opportunity to call witnesses. Who we will be able to call, who will appear remains to be seen. We hope to authenticate all documents that we will produce in this court for your Honours.

JUDGE JORDA: That still poses a problem, so I am going to consult my colleagues. There is a problem of organisation. It is something that we have discussed for maybe twenty minutes and then we are apparently not going to admit it into evidence. I have to consult my colleagues; I need their counsel. (Pause). The Trial Chamber will not accept this document ²⁴⁰⁸ into evidence for the moment, because it has not been authenticated. It is up to the Defence to have it authenticated when it is able to do so in the course of the trial. It will be identified or not. If it is not, we will pass another ruling as to whether we will admit it, even if it has not been identified.

Thirdly, as regards the Trial Chamber, we have lost some precious time because the witness said straight away that he did not recognise that exhibit, and therefore in the future, we will be far more vigilant as regards the identification. If an exhibit is not identified, I am not saying we are going to do it every time, but it is quite possible that the Trial Chamber will rule that we will proceed to another question or another exhibit. For the moment, the decision is that we will not admit this document into evidence until it has been authenticated by the Defence.

So, Mr. Hayman, you can go on with the other documents which I hope do not raise the same problem. Cross-examined by MR. HAYMAN

Q. I do not believe they will, your Honour, thank you. If the usher could assist, I would like one document placed on the ELMO. If you could move the document down slightly? Thank you. ²⁴⁰⁹ We will offer this document, your Honour. It appears to be a summary of a report of interview. It is titled "Official Report, Information on Witness, name", then the name of this witness, and I believe his birth date is given, and then, "Information on the Statement", which is about halfway down the page, "Date of interview: 7th May 1993; Place of interview: security section of the BH army."

MR. HARMON: Mr. President, this is a summary apparently of the document that the witness was shown earlier this morning, the document that was in Serbo-Croatian which the witness said he could not identify as his statement.

MR. HAYMAN: I do not know what the import of that is, your Honour. This is offered as impeachment of the witness's earlier answer that he never gave a statement to the security section of the army of BiH. I do not intend to ask him any questions about it but I ask that this be marked and we offer it in evidence.

JUDGE JORDA: The problem of authentication, does it arise here too, Mr. Prosecutor? What is the source? It is an official report? What does that mean?

MR. HAYMAN: You would have to ask Mr. Harmon, your Honour; we got it from him.

JUDGE JORDA: Exactly. ²⁴¹⁰ Mr. Harmon, can you indicate the source, unless you consider it is not up to you, but you must understand that the Chamber requires the identification of the source before admitting it into evidence. It is an exhibit coming from your own information. It is not a question of asking the witness, but asking the Prosecution now.

MR. HARMON: Your Honour, I do not have that information at my fingertips. We have literally thousands of documents we have furnished to the Defence and I cannot identify right now the source of this particular document.

JUDGE JORDA: Then, with the agreement of my colleagues, we will postpone its possible admission to later. Do you have any other documents to present, Mr. Hayman?

MR. HAYMAN: I do, your Honour, although the position of the Defence would then be as to all of the documents the Prosecution have given us, they should identify the source to us, so we will not be held, in essence, in limbo, not able to use the very materials that they were compelled under the Rules of the Tribunal to give to us. I will move forward, your Honour.

If the usher could assist?

JUDGE JORDA: It will be admitted into evidence, but when the source has been identified. Next document, please.

MR. HAYMAN: Yes, your Honour, it has been placed on the ²⁴¹¹ ELMO, and should have been distributed.

Let me first ask a prefatory question of the witness. Lieutenant, I believe you said you were interviewed by representatives of the Office of the Tribunal Prosecutor on two occasions; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. At the conclusion of those interviews, was a statement that had been prepared in written form read to you in your own language?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you have the opportunity at that time to make any corrections or revisions to the statement?

A. No. I am sorry, could you repeat your question? I did not understand your question.

Q. Were you asked if the statements that were read to you in your own language, if they were true and accurate?

A. Yes, I was asked.

Q. Did you answer yes on both occasions, that the statements read to you in your own language were accurate?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you sign both of those statements?

A. Yes, I think I did. I am not sure. Most probably I did.

Q. You were asked by my colleague Mr. Nobilo whether on ²⁴¹² 20th October 1992 you heard any radio communications with persons in Ahmici during the conflict that occurred there. Do you recall that question?

A. Yes, I recall that question.

Q. Do you recall answering no to that question.

A. Yes.

Q. Let me direct your attention to the document that is on the ELMO. If you would like to turn to the last page -- the usher may need to assist -- but if you wish to go ahead you may. If you could just flip to the last page, to the page with the signatures, do you recognise your signature in the upper portion of that last page?

A. Yes, it is my signature.

Q. Is this one of the two written statements that was read to you by the OTP representative?

A. It is my signature and my statement.

Q. Thank you. Turning back, Mr. Usher, to the first full page of text, the page marked 2 at the bottom.

This, your Honour, for the record, is the statement on the face page identified as having been taken on 2nd September 1995. That appears on the face page. Turning our attention to the first full page of text, the beginning, lieutenant, references the date of the events in that paragraph as 20th October 1992. Do ²⁴¹³ you see that on the first line ? If you go up to the first line of that paragraph?

A. I cannot see it.

Q. The next one down. That is the first paragraph on the page. I am referring to the second paragraph.

JUDGE JORDA: The second paragraph towards the middle of the page, Mr. Kavazovic.

MR. HAYMAN: May I read that first sentence to orient the witness, your Honour?

JUDGE JORDA: Yes, but slowly please.

MR. HAYMAN: "On 20th October 1992, I had been organising the transportation of the BiH to Visoko and I was driving a VW golf to Visoko."

Do you recall that day?

JUDGE JORDA: Excuse me, yes, I am asking my interpreter. The transport of what?

MR. HAYMAN: I believe it reads --

JUDGE JORDA: The problem of the interpreter is the problem of the judge too. It says "the transport of Bosnia-Herzegovina" -- of the Bosnia-Herzegovina to Visoko. I suppose that is the way to translate it. Perhaps when you continue it will be clearer. Continue, please.

MR. HAYMAN: I understand your point, your Honour. It could hardly fit in the car. At the time, your duties ²⁴¹⁴ involved transportation on behalf of the army of BiH; correct?

A. For the headquarters of the Territorial Defence. At that time there was no army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. The headquarters of the Territorial Defence in Vitez.

Q. Thank you for correcting me. On the day you went to Visoko and returned you were conducting official business in that capacity; correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Now I would like to ask you to skip down to the lower portion of this page and I would like the usher to assist by moving the page on the ELMO. I would like to call your attention to the point in time where you have said you returned back to the high school in Vitez. I will read several statements:

"While I was in the high school, I could hear shooting coming from Ahmici. Ahmic Mustafa, 'Sudzuka', was on the radio in Ahmici and called us. He told us he was under attack and asked what to do. We could not help him because we were surrounded by about 70 HVO who were all well armed with RPGs. There were only 37 of us in the headquarters."

Did you make that statement?

A. I apologise, your Honours, there are two mistakes here. The first mistake is here where the word "transport" is ²⁴¹⁵ in my statement. I listened to the statement and I signed the statement, but that which is written down here, that I accompanied the transport of troops of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is something I did not say. I went to Visoko to accompany two buses full of civilians. They were not people in uniform, so these were two buses that I accompanied. It was not a convoy. A convoy is something bigger. These were people from the municipality of Vitez. They were going to Visoko, to Mostre, to support the people there, the Muslims, Bosnia-Herzegovina actually. That is one mistake.

The second mistake is here. I do not remember having mentioned the high school at all, that I was watching this from the high school. I just said that I saw the house of Ahmic Mustafa called Sudzuka burning on my way back. That is the mistake here so when I came from the headquarters I heard from Muhamed Patkovic that this Sudzuka called and asked for someone to help him save his house and family, so that is what that is about. I do not know what this is.

This is what I had stated, and also in the statement is another thing: when I was testifying about mining, about laying mines, it is not as I had said it. It has been said that the village was there and that ²⁴¹⁶ I had laid mines, but it was not said that I was taken to another minefield and they asked me at that other minefield what mines these were, so some of the things were not fully quoted in the statement.

Q. Your testimony then is that, with respect to the statement "Ahmic Mustafa, 'Sudzuka', was on the radio in Ahmici and called us. He told us he was under attack and asked what to do", that is not a statement you ever made to the OTP representative; is that your testimony?

A. I did not. I say that I did not say that Mustafa Ahmic asked for help on the radio. I am saying that when I came to logistics, I said that five houses were burning. Patkovic Muhamed, I said, and he said I know, Mustafa had asked for help because his wife was in his house, so I do not know how this happened. The statement was read to me in the Bosnian language, so I do not know. At any rate --

JUDGE JORDA: Excuse me for asking this question. I have the impression that we are going to come up against this problem very frequently. When you heard the statement in your language, was it like this or was it said differently, if I understand you well? When it was read to you -- you first read it in Serbo-Croatian, did you not?

A. It was read to me in Serbo-Croat. ²⁴¹⁷

JUDGE JORDA: And what they read to you does not correspond to what has been translated into English; is that what you are saying, at least regarding these two points?

A. Yes, that here two or three words were added which I did not say.

JUDGE JORDA: Perhaps I can turn to the Prosecution. I am sorry for dwelling on it for a couple of minutes because we are going to have the same problem with each statement. I am asking the Prosecution: is it a translation error? Do we have this statement in Serbo-Croatian? It must exist somewhere in your archives, Mr. Prosecutor. It would be interesting to see whether it is a translation error, or are we going to have systematic errors of this kind when we retranslate these declarations? Because this goes far beyond this statement. I think we are going to come up against it regularly.

In your archives, do you have anywhere a statement in Serbo-Croatian. It would be interesting to see whether this is a gross error by the translator, which can happen to anyone, or is it something else. He did not read it in Serbo-Croatian, at least what is stated here in the English version. What is your opinion, Mr. Prosecutor?

MR. HARMON: Mr. President, my answer is I do not believe we ²⁴¹⁸ do have a statement in Serbo-Croatian. I will check, but I do not believe we have one and there are oftentimes errors in translation. That is an unfortunate fact of life in these cases.

JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Hayman?

MR. HAYMAN: Yes, your Honour. Lieutenant, so I take it your testimony here today is that you were told by someone else after you arrived back in Vitez that this individual, Sudzuka, had called on a radio; is that right?

A. Muhamed Patkovic, the Assistant Commander for Logistics, told me, because I asked him what was happening when I came in -- I saw houses burning in Ahmici and he told me, "Yes, I know. Mustafa Ahmic called me." I do not know how he called him. He said that he needed help because he said that his family was on fire in that house. That is what I said.

Q. Is it your testimony now that you were never told that this individual Ahmic Mustafa called on a radio?

MR. HARMON: Your Honour the question has been asked and answered.

JUDGE JORDA: Yes, but, Mr. Harmon, I agree with you. I am the first to question putting the same question several times, but the position of the Defence is awkward because they have a statement which is several months if ²⁴¹⁹ not years old, and we are now faced with making an investigation, but that is not the objective of the hearing. I understand the substance of your objection, but we must admit that the Defence has reason to refer to this, because obviously we are going to have the same problem very often.

MR. HAYMAN: The radio, were you ever told that this individual Ahmic Mustafa used a radio to contact the TO in Vitez on 20th October 1992?

A. Nobody told me that. Patkovic Muhamed, the Assistant Commander for Logistics, he just told me that Sudzuka called him and told him his house and his family were on fire, nothing else. He did not say if it was radio, some other form of communication, I do not know; those were the words he used.

Q. Were there 37 persons in the TO headquarters on this occasion?

A. In the TO headquarters, together with the police and with the leadership of the TO headquarters, there were 37 people altogether including the military police.

Q. Just a couple more questions on this incident, then I will move on. I take it after several days of negotiations an agreement was reached whereby the TO was to be allowed to evacuate this position; is that right?

A. Yes. ²⁴²⁰

Q. Were they going to evacuate to Stari Vitez; was that the agreement?

A. Yes.

Q. Was the agreement that a certain route would be taken, that is a traffic route, outside of town, or at least that at some point it went out of town in order to accomplish that evacuation or movement?

A. I do not know what agreement was reached for the high school centre. At any rate, I do know that on the orders of the then commander, Sefkija Djidic, who replaced Hakija Cengic, we received orders from the school that, first of all, the school had to be evacuated as the headquarters, towards the stadium, the kindergarten, and then Mahala, Stari Vitez. That was done.

We remained behind, then we received orders that we do the same thing, that we withdraw towards Mahala, but as we started moving towards Mahala, we were prevented from doing so. The agreement was that we could freely withdraw, that there would not be any problems in our withdrawal. However, something completely different happened when we were withdrawing, so they let the command go and the police, these people who were with the staff, but when I left with these people, these five or six people, we were captured. ²⁴²¹

Q. Is it your testimony that no particular route or path was specified to you that you were supposed to take in moving from your location to Stari Vitez?

A. We were only told that we could freely go to Stari Vitez.

Q. If you could look and if the usher could assist on page 3 of your statement, several lines down from the line I stopped at a few moments ago, a little bit up from that -- if you move the page down slightly and if the technical staff could zoom in slightly on the highlighted double line at the top.

Let me read you this sentence, lieutenant: "I drove the van filled with grenades through the town instead of the road which the HVO told me to take because I was afraid the HVO would shoot at the van." Did you make that statement in one of your earlier interviews, specifically this interview with the OTP?

A. I said this, but before leaving the high school centre, I can explain that on the map, we were not allowed to move towards the elementary school and the clinic, so they let us pass between the cinema and Vitez; that is to say we went towards another group of people who stopped us and blocked us.

Q. In Mr. Nobilo's examination, he asked you whether at your apartment in Vitez you had any weapons. Do you recall ²⁴²² that question?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you recall that your answer to that question was no?

A. Yes.

Q. If I could draw your attention to the next page of your statement, page 4, and if Mr. Usher could assist by turning to that page, I will read the first couple of sentences of this paragraph to help orient you, lieutenant, to the point in time that is referred to. I am reading for the record from the first full paragraph on page 4 of the statement of the witness dated 2nd September 1995:

"On 15th April 1993 I was living in Vitez amongst the Croats. I was returning to my apartment at about 2130."

Then I would like to skip down two sentences and draw your attention to the sentence which is highlighted in yellow on the screen:

"I had my weapons from when I was with the JNA in my apartment."

Did you make that statement when you were interviewed on this occasion by the OTP?

A. I made this statement, but not concerning 15th April 1993. On 14th April 1993, these weapons were taken to the municipal headquarters of Vitez and that is where it ²⁴²³ stayed on.

Q. Is that what you told the interviewer on this occasion?

A. Yes, that is what I said and the time period over here is 2130, which is to say 9.30 in the evening, that is to say that I could not have been there at 9.30 on 15th April, but only on 14th April could I have been at home at 2130, not on 15th April.

Q. I have completed my work with that exhibit, your Honour, but I have another exhibit, if the usher could assist?

JUDGE JORDA: This exhibit: it comes from the Prosecution; it has just been identified. You want to tender it into evidence, Mr. Hayman, I assume?

MR. HAYMAN: My request would be that those portions read or noted be admitted. Again I object to the procedure of admitting the entire document and I am not offering the entire document, but I have provided the entire document in case that is the ruling of the court. It is already here and it can be conveniently handled in either manner, your Honour.

JUDGE JORDA: Very well, thank you. For the moment, we are going to give it a number at least.

Mme Fauveau?

THE REGISTRAR: It will be D53.

JUDGE JORDA: D53 for the totality of the document, but the Defence has required only the parts that have been ²⁴²⁴ underlined and on which it has cross-examined the witness. Mr. Hayman?

MR. HAYMAN: Yes. May I proceed?

JUDGE JORDA: Yes, of course.

MR. HAYMAN: Thank you. The next exhibit, your Honour, is another English language statement of the witness. This statement is dated 26th January 1997, and perhaps first if, Mr. Usher, you could assist the witness in finding the last page, the signature page, page 10 of the exhibit? That is the last page of the witness's text; there are some attachments. I believe it is the page that ends in 483 of the stamped numbers. Lieutenant, do you see your signature on this document?

A. Yes, I see it. It is my signature.

Q. Is this also a written statement that was provided to the OTP by you?

A. Yes.

Q. Let me ask the usher then to turn us to page 9, and while that is being done, let me ask you, lieutenant: do you recall being asked by Mr. Nobilo if you could tell us anything more about Darko Kraljevic other than what you provided in your testimony. Do you recall that question?

A. I remember the question. ²⁴²⁵

Q. Let me read to you the portion that is in yellow on the screen and then I will ask you about it. This is from page 9 of the witness's statement dated January 26th 1997:

"Kraljevic Darko: he was an addict dealing with drugs and a maniac. He was HOS commander in the beginning of the war in Rijeka area. The local term for his unit was Crnokosoljasi (Black Shirts) as they were in black uniforms. This was an exclusive unit - a kind of private army - they only took orders from the Commander and no one else."

First let me ask you lieutenant: do you agree with the statement I have just read?

A. I agree. I am sorry, your Honours, may I explain this now? When I was asked by Mr. Nobilo -- when he asked me what I knew about Darko Kraljevic, he confused me a bit. I could not say all that I knew, but I support all of this that I said that he was a commander et cetera, so the fast questions of Mr. Nobilo got me confused, so I could not prepare my answers properly. I kindly request the gentleman to speak slowly so that I understand the questions better, nothing else. Thank you.

MR. HAYMAN: Am I speaking slowly enough, lieutenant? ²⁴²⁶

A. Yes.

Q. Thank you. Let me ask you, the last sentence of this statement which reads:

"This was an exclusive unit - a kind of private army - they only took orders from the Commander and no one else."

Is the reference in that statement to "Commander" a reference to Darko Kraljevic?

A. Yes.

Q. Let me also ask you to think back to before the luncheon break, when you were making one map and being asked a series of questions by Mr. Nobilo concerning the relative positions of the HVO and the army of BiH or other BiH forces?

MR. HARMON: Excuse me, Mr. President, I am going to object to this line of questioning. When Mr. Hayman asked to cross-examine this witness after Mr. Nobilo had concluded his examination, he said he was going to cross-examine him on three paragraphs that were in English. We have now gone through six portions of paragraphs in English and now we are about to go into Mr. Nobilo's use of maps. My objection is that this is beyond the scope of what Mr. Hayman assured this court he was going to limit his examination to, and we are now going beyond that and we are going to be taking an undue amount of time ²⁴²⁷ revisiting Mr. Nobilo's cross-examination.

JUDGE JORDA: Just a moment, the objection is sustained. It is true you are not here to complement the cross-examination done by your co-counsel. You are here to clarify certain statements in the statement in English, so either rephrase your question regarding the Commander Darko Kraljevic, or proceed to another question relating to this statement.

On the other hand, Mr. Prosecutor, we have never said that Mr. Hayman could put three or four questions, I do not know how many, so please go on and try to abridge this additional cross-examination, please.

MR. HAYMAN: I will proceed in a different manner, your Honour.

JUDGE JORDA: Yes, but you know which port you are heading for, I hope, Mr. Hayman. You know which direction you are going to. I hope we are going to reach the harbour very soon.

MR. HAYMAN: Your Honour, I said I had three or four items to raise with this witness. I think if one looks at these statements and what was highlighted and what was discussed, there are three or four groupings of areas. I am on the fourth one. It is a map. It was attached to this statement; it was attached to an English language statement. I understand the Prosecution's ²⁴²⁸ distress about this map, but I would like to proceed and ask the witness about it. May I?

JUDGE JORDA: I am not here to register the reciprocal distresses of the Prosecution and the Defence. I am here to ensure an equitable debate. The

cross-examination, having been completed, I do not wish to enter into a new cross-examination. Please produce your map, but the judges will be very vigilant as to what you are going to draw from that map.

MR. HAYMAN: Lieutenant, have you seen this document before, on the ELMO? For purposes of the court, this map is attached to the statement which is before each of you, and it should be stamped W1/00488. The question, lieutenant, was whether you recognise this map.

A. Yes, I marked this.

Q. You drew it in your own hand, did you?

A. Yes, my own hand.

Q. Was that in response to a question or series of questions posed to you by the representatives of the OTP at or about the time of this interview in January of this year?

JUDGE JORDA: Please repeat your answer from the beginning, because the interpreters could not hear you well; the microphone was too far away. Could you please restart your answer. I know it is a little hard for you, but ²⁴²⁹ the interpreters did not hear you properly.

A. When I was marking this map, I did this with Ole who was questioning me. He also asked me to approximately mark the line where the army of the BH and the HVO were separated, so it is not that I knew it. He told me just like Mr. Nobilo today, "Draw this line approximately where you were digging trenches and where the BH-Army positions were", so that is what I did, approximately I drew this line, so this is an approximate map showing these positions approximately.

MR. HAYMAN: As of what date does this map reflect your best knowledge concerning the relative positions and frontlines of the HVO and the army of BiH; that is the date on which these positions were held?

A. I do not know the date. We did not talk about the date. We only talked about this approximately, the parts of the HVO and the army, which parts were held by the HVO and which positions were held by the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I did not say that I knew for sure. I said, as I did to Mr. Nobilo today as well, that over here approximately that is where they were so that was the answer and the date, I do not know the date. Actually, this concerned the dates of my trench-digging, where I was digging too, so that is the period.

Q. So the map refers to the period in April 1993 when you ²⁴³⁰ were forced to dig trenches; is that right?

A. Yes, something like that, 1993, April, May; that is where the lines were approximately.

Q. Did you write or cause to be written inside the finger, if you will, the letters HVO?

A. Yes, they asked for it. He asked me for the HVO territory and Bosnia-Herzegovina approximately so that I could approximate the zone where the Croats were and the zone where the Muslims were; that was all.

Q. What you drew indicated that the HVO positions were inside this finger, if you will, that you have outlined, whereas all territories outside the finger on this map you indicated as being held by the army of BiH; is that correct?

A. That is the area with Muslim population and with the BH-Army, naturally. That is where they were. Try to understand one thing.

May I explain this, your Honours? I could not say exactly where this line was, but I did know that Kaonik was held by the HVO, or Vitez, Vitez was also held by HVO, so was Zenica, and that is how I marked it because he asked me to mark it.

MR. HAYMAN: Thank you, lieutenant, you may be seated.

A. Thank you.

MR. HAYMAN: Your Honour, I believe this statement will be ²⁴³¹ D54.

THE REGISTRAR: Yes, D54.

JUDGE JORDA: Let us see, what was the intervention of the Defence? It is the map only, but the document will be admitted as well as the map. Have you completed, Mr. Hayman?

MR. HAYMAN: I have, your Honour. Thank you for the court's patience.

JUDGE JORDA: Fine, thank you. I think the Prosecutor may have some

clarifications to contribute. I would like to make a comment, a personal comment which does not commit my colleagues. It is in my own name only. I think that we have seen the limits of asking the participants in these tragic events to draw lines of defence of the HVO, of the Bosniak army at such a date, at such a place, even at such and such an hour, because these are events that happened four years ago, and I am not just speaking specifically regarding this witness, but others too.

We are asking them about events that took place two years ago and to redraw graphic presentations, eight months, eight or ten months after he made the statement. This is the comment that I am making, that I wanted to make in the interest of the continuation of ²⁴³² our proceedings.

I assume, Mr. Prosecutor, that you have a comment regarding this particular case as well? It is up to you and up to your party to respond to the observations of the Defence. Do you intend to ask the witness to make more drawings, Mr. Prosecutor?

MR. HARMON: I do not, your Honour.

JUDGE JORDA: Thank you. Go on then, please. Re-examined by MR. HARMON

Q. Mr. Kavazovic, I only have a few questions to ask you and preliminary to those questions, you indicated you were released from custody from the SDK building on 5th May; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. The Defence has introduced an exhibit which is D52, a summary of an official report, and if the usher could please put that back on the ELMO? While that is happening, while that exhibit is being placed on the ELMO, Mr. Kavazovic, you described for us your physical state when you were released from the HVO custody and went to Zenica. You described, I believe, your physical state as one of exhaustion that required medical attention; is that correct?

A. Yes, I had psychological problems when I left. I had to go and see a doctor in order to recuperate from all of ²⁴³³ that. Dr Mujezinovic treated me.

Q. Now if you take a look at Defence exhibit D52 on the line that says "Date of interview", do you see a date on that particular exhibit? Of course, you cannot read that, but if I can indicate --

A. 7th May 1993? That is the date of interview?

Q. Yes, that is correct. That was two days after your release from custody of the HVO; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. When you were released, Mr. Nobilo asked you a question as to whether or not you had been interviewed by a number of Bosnian government offices. He mentioned, I believe, the police and the military and the like. As you sit here today, do you have any recollection of being interviewed by anybody from the Bosnian military?

A. I am sorry, but I will have to respond to the court in connection with this question too. That is what happened to the statement that was written in the Bosnian language. The statement that was made in the Bosnian language -- I was in Zenica, I asked to see an doctor, and I went to see the doctor and as I was going back from the doctor to my aunt's house where I was staying, I met Ramiz Dugalic, a former colleague of mine who worked with me in the municipal headquarters of the Defence of Vitez. Then I went to a cafe to have a cup ²⁴³⁴ of coffee with him and to smoke a cigarette. This man worked for the Third Corps of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

He and I only talked in that cafe. He asked me various questions because he knew me. He asked me how I was, and then I told him the whole story, not all of it, but superficially. I explained the basic things that were happening to me, and I have a feeling this officer, Ramiz Dugalic, wrote that paper and I do not stand behind this paper because I did not make any statements to the security section of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and I see this date here and all that and I think that on the basis of what I told him, he wrote that paper. I do not know whether that is the way it actually happened, but that is what I feel, because I know that on the 7th, I had coffee with him and I talked to him and that can only explain the written statement in the Bosnian language. That is what I wish to say.

Q. Mr. Kavazovic, a point of clarification. When you were at Kratine on the front lines digging trenches, you testified earlier that you had seen Motorolas and a portable telephone; is that correct?

A. Yes. Mr. Nobilo, when he asked me, he asked me only about Motorolas, so I could not fully express myself and ²⁴³⁵ say that I saw that Mr. Ivica Vujica had a piece of equipment that he carried on his shoulder. This is some kind of radio telephone of the former Yugoslav Army and he was talking on that phone to someone. I do not know who he was talking to, but I saw it. It was a military device, the colour was green; it is held at the shoulder and you can talk through a receiver. I forgot to mention that in addition to Motorolas, I saw that as well.

Q. Motorola is different from a portable telephone?

A. No, Motorola is like what he has over there and this radio-telephone is different. It has a little handle which you turn and then you get through and then you talk to someone on the receiver, so a Motorola is in the Bosnian language what he has over there, and then this telephone is different and you turn the little handle and that is how you get in touch with the other person.

Q. I take it, Mr. Kavazovic, the portable telephone is different, a different device than a Motorola?

A. Yes, it is a different device; that is a communications device whereas a Motorola is something different.

Q. In respect of Motorolas, did the HVO commanders at the frontline in Kratine have Motorolas?

A. I am sorry, but I cannot hear the translation well. Could I hear it louder, please? ²⁴³⁶

JUDGE JORDA: Usher, can you increase his volume?

A. Yes, they had Motorolas. Whoever was issuing orders had Motorolas.

MR. HARMON: I have no additional questions, your Honour. Thank you.

JUDGE JORDA: Thank you, Mr. Harmon. I turn to my colleagues now.

Judge Riad, do you have any questions to put to the witness?

JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Kavazovic, I have a few small questions to clarify a little bit what you were saying, to understand it better. We start when you spoke that on April 16th you saw smoke coming from Ahmici and from other Muslim villages. Where were you at that moment when you saw the smoke?

A. I was in the apartment of my parents-in-law and I saw it from the window.

Q. Where was this apartment?

A. My apartment was in the centre near the post office in Kolonija, a part of town behind the post office which faced the upper part.

Q. From there you can see all the other villages, if they are burning and smoke coming out?

A. I am sorry, I did not see the villages, but I said that from that direction, from the direction where these ²⁴³⁷ villages were, I saw smoke. I knew approximately where these villages were, so from that direction I saw smoke. I did not say that I saw the villages, because you cannot see the villages, but you can see what direction these villages are.

Q. I am talking about the smoke. You could see the smoke?

A. Yes, I could see the smoke.

Q. Then if you go to 18th April, when a great explosion came from Mahala, you said a certain lady, Fatima, discovered that the explosion came from a truck sent to explode in the village of Mahala. How did she find out that it was a truck sent there?

A. I heard that from her. Actually, my mother-in-law heard about that from her and she told me about it, so it is not that I stand behind this statement. I heard a strong explosion and it actually blew up the windows of the apartment of my father-in-law, not only his apartment but the apartments of quite a few people in Vitez, so that is what I know about this particular matter.

Q. You mentioned that the HVO, the Jokers and the MUP and the military were working together. Was there any hierarchy? Who was controlling the others? Do you know or do you have no information about that? What was the controlling power in all this circle? ²⁴³⁸

A. I do not know about that. I cannot say. I do not have an answer to that. I do not know what the hierarchy was and who had control over whom.

Q. I remember also noting down that you said that from all camps in Vitez people were taken to dig trenches in the frontlines. To your knowledge, did many people die in this procedure?

A. I heard about that, but I am not asserting that; I did not see it. When we came back to the camp, a young man from our camp had been hit in the spine, and he died. His name was Tuco Adis. I do not know how this happened, the HVO or the army; I do not know. At any rate, I know that a young man called Tuco Adis was killed while digging trenches; that is what I was told when we came back to the SDK. This young man was with us, not in my group, he went in a different group. My group was first, and then after that they came and took him away, and some other men, and we all came back and he did not come back, because he was hit straight in the spine with a bullet and he died. That is what I know, but I did not see any of it.

Q. You also said that before the exchange of the detainees everybody had to sign a statement that they did not want to go back to stay in Vitez. You said that you had to sign it because you were afraid to be arrested again. ²⁴³⁹ Do you know anybody who refused to sign or who stayed, and what happened to them?

A. That day, when we were supposed to get out, when the Red Cross was supposed to get us out, we got from the Croatian authorities a diary and a statement, saying that we agreed that we do not wish to live in Vitez any more, but that we wanted to have permanent residence in Zenica or Travnik or wherever else we were going to. Gordana Badro worked on this protocol. I knew her personally and I asked her what would happen if I stayed on in Vitez because I did not want to go to Zenica. I preferred Vitez; it was a nicer town and it was my town anyway. I never liked Zenica very much and I said I did not want to go to Zenica, that I preferred staying in Vitez and she said, "I cannot tell." I asked her, "Who can guarantee for my life if I remain in Vitez?" She said she did not know. When I realised that, and when I thought about it, that I had been taken away for no reason whatsoever, had I stayed on in Vitez further I would have been taken away again. I do not know whether anybody stayed on in Vitez. I cannot tell. I was just praying to God that I could get out, because I had had enough of it all. I did not like going to Zenica, but I was praying to God to get out of Vitez. ²⁴⁴⁰

Q. You do not know who stayed or if somebody stayed in Vitez?

A. I do not know; I cannot tell because I do not know.

Q. None of your relatives or friends stayed?

A. I know three or four families who are still in Vitez, Karadza Jasminka and Karadza Ahro, friends of my father-in-law, but they were not even arrested in the camps, they stayed in their houses. They had Croats; they had a man called Butur who took care of them and that is why they were not taken to a camp, so they stayed in their houses throughout and they remained with the Croat population in Vitez. I know them. They stayed on in Vitez. I never saw them again.

Q. Were they collaborating with the Croats? Was that why they were accepted?

A. I do not know, believe me. I just know that Butur was their friend, a family friend, and he helped to prevent them from being taken to camp.

Q. This brings me to another question. You have been asked, as you said, you have been offered to join the HVO, and you refused, so was the HVO open also for Muslims to join?

A. To tell you, I do not know whether it was open to Muslims too. This was offered to me by a person who knew me. He said that the salary was bigger in the HVO ²⁴⁴¹ than in Territorial Defence, so that was the reason. At any rate, it was -- there were two or three Muslims in the HVO. I know that there were two or three Muslims in the HVO, but how did people take this, whether they were supposed to be here or there.

Q. Was the opposite also possible, that Croats would join the Territorial Defence?

A. People at the very outset, when the headquarters of the Territorial Defence were first established, there were 30 Croats with me. They reported all the time. They would report in and Anto Furundzija was commander of a platoon of the military police until July 1992 when he left the Territorial Defence.

Q. Do you know how things turned out after that with these Croats who joined the Territorial Defence?

A. I heard that actually when Anto Furundzija left the Territorial Defence -- when he was leaving the Territorial Defence he said that he was threatened and he would have to join the HVO and he would have to leave the Territorial Defence. That is what he told me when I saw him and when I asked him, "Why are you not in the Territorial Defence?" He said, "I have to be in the HVO." I do not know whether it is true or not, but that is what he told me, the same person, Anto Furundzija.

Q. My last question: we saw the order which concerned the ²⁴⁴² weapons in paragraph 4. The order prohibited the carrying of weapons in Vitez, I think. In practice, did Croats still continue carrying weapons in the town; was this rule strictly applied?

A. This rule was applied only in the case of the Territorial Defence. They continued to carry arms, and on that piece of paper, in those orders, it does not say that a copy was also forwarded to the TO, to the Territorial Defence, so if this order did exist, we were not aware of it. We did not know we were not supposed to move around after working hours and we were not supposed to carry weapons although we had them. Nobody had warned us about the Territorial Defence. No one from the HVO had told us about this, so they would take into custody people who were carrying weapons, a rifle, a pistol or whatever, and they took their weapons away, but this strictly applied to the Territorial Defence.

Q. In other words, the Croats could be seen moving around with arms?

A. Yes, it was possible to see Croatian military police with rifles in town and you could not see Territorial Defence members anywhere in places under HVO control, so this order applied only to one side, to the Territorial Defence, and it did not apply to the other side at all.

JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much. ²⁴⁴³

JUDGE SHAHABUDDEN: Lieutenant, let us speak a little of the last order to which you referred, that is an order prohibiting the carrying of weapons. You say that order was not directed to the Territorial Defence. Do you know whether it was directed to what were called independent units?

A. I must try and explain one thing with regard to these orders. We were not aware of those orders as the Territorial Defence, that there was any prohibition on movement under arms. Some people did move around with arms and those that did were arrested by the HVO and their weapons were seized from them. As for others, members of the HVO, of the HOS, they wore weapons, but we could not.

Q. Let me talk to you a little about exhibit D53. You remember the document? It is your witness statement concerning Ahmic Mustafa, Sudzuka. You remember the statement?

A. Yes, I remember.

Q. All I want to ask you is whether you might have given that statement in the Croatian language as well.

A. I apologise. I did not make it in Croatian; I made it in Bosnian, which was translated into English. I did not make any statement in Croatian.

Q. Did you sign a statement in Bosnian? ²⁴⁴⁴

A. Yes. The problem is that in Bosnia, the former language, Serbo-Croatian, still remains, but now in the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina we call it the Bosnian language because the country is Bosnia, but in the area under the control of the HVO, they use Croatian, so that we now have a separation. The Serbs use their own language.

Q. I understand you this way, to be saying that there were two forms of exhibit 53 which you signed. One was in English and one was in Bosnian; is that what you are saying?

A. No, that is not what I said. I said, regarding views on language in Bosnia-Herzegovina, I did not make any statements in Croatian. I only made a statement in Bosnian. I do not even know how to speak some words in Croatian.

Q. You made a statement in Bosnian. Did you make that statement in writing, and if so, did you sign it?

A. No, I did not make it in writing; I made it orally. I was questioned, I said what I knew and at the end, I just signed, so I did not make it in writing.

Q. Do I understand you this way then, that the only statement which you signed was this statement which is in English; is that right?

A. Yes, and there is another statement also in English ²⁴⁴⁵ which I signed.

Q. Then I come to this sketchmap which is appended to exhibit D54. I see that there are two sets of lines on the map. Do you remember the map?

A. I do.

Q. One set of lines is in thick ink. The other set of lines is continuously traced, a connected series of straight lines. Do you see the two sets of lines?

A. (indicates).

Q. Right. Could you explain the set of lines which consist of a series of connected straight lines. That is right.

A. I apologise, your Honour, but these lines were like that on the map. I did not draw them. These were lines that were already on the map.

Q. I see. Just look above the lower reference to BiH. Just look above that. There is a word there which I cannot decipher. Is that "Kruscica"?

A. It says "Kruscica".

Q. Was that where you were also digging trenches?

A. No. I beg your pardon, these lines were on the map when I was asked to draw in these other lines. It is not a good copy.

Q. Thank you. Let us look at the part concerning Darko. You remember learned counsel read out to you some lines ²⁴⁴⁶ concerning Kraljevic Darko at page 9 of the document? The particular sentence reads:

"This was an exclusive unit, a kind of private army. They only took orders from the Commander and no one else."

A. Darko Kraljevic.

Q. You have my apologies. Do I understand you there to be referring to the relations between Darko Kraljevic and the men who served under him, that they only took their orders from Kraljevic?

A. Yes.

Q. You were not referring there to any question as to whether Darko Kraljevic himself took orders from anyone above him?

A. No, I just said that it was known in Vitez when cafes were blown up owned by Muslims, the next day the report was in town that Darko Kraljevic can do what he likes, that whatever he wants to do he can do. He had his own private cafe where people were drinking day and night and this was a rallying place for his troops.

Q. I want to ask you about the Ludvig Pavlovic personnel to whom you referred yesterday. Do you remember you said that you were going towards Mahala when you saw some military people? According to your statement they all had HVO insignia, and you said that two soldiers also ²⁴⁴⁷ had insignia saying that they belonged to the Ludvig Pavlovic unit. Do you remember that statement?

A. I do remember, and that is correct.

Q. So these two Ludvig Pavlovic soldiers also had some additional insignia?

A. No, they just had the words "Ludvig Pavlovic" on the left side, an oak leaf and beneath it the words "Ludvig Pavlovic". This unit came just before the outbreak of the conflict in 1993 somewhere in October. They came from Mostar and they were accommodated at the railway station near the Dubravica school. I do not know exactly how many they were, but they were there, and for a time, they caused great difficulties for Muslims in the cafes. They got drunk, they did not pay their bills and that sort of thing.

Q. Let me read your statement yesterday. You said in answer to the Prosecutor:

"Yes, they all had HVO insignia. Two soldiers also had insignia saying that they belonged to the Ludvig Pavlovic unit."

My question to you is: as regards these two soldiers, the only insignia they had on their shoulders were insignia concerning their membership of the Ludvig Pavlovic unit?

A. Yes. ²⁴⁴⁸

Q. They had no HVO insignia?

A. No, I did not see those insignia of the HVO.

Q. Let us turn a little to the question of uniforms. Do I understand you to be saying that in the period 14th, 15th, 16th April 1993, you felt you could not wear your uniform in public whether you were on duty or not on duty?

A. Yes, we could not wear uniforms as of that date, because all members in the TO Defence who would enter the area under HVO control, populated mostly by Croats, were mistreated by units of the HVO or other units who were in town, so that the unit from Herzegovina caused problems to our members of the TO.

Q. Let me turn to another aspect of your testimony. Vitez is a small town, is it not, about 5,500 people?

A. Yes. Before the war, I think it had up to 10,000 or 11,000. Now it may be less, 5,000 or 6,000. I do not know the exact number, but it was a small town.

Q. Could you tell of your own knowledge whether any shells fell within Vitez?

A. I apologise, could you please repeat the question? What part of town are you referring to?

Q. Any part of Vitez, not Stari Vitez, but Vitez.

A. Yes, shells did fall. One could hear explosions, very strong explosions. ²⁴⁴⁹

Q. You mentioned Ivica whom you saw at Kratine. Do forgive me in case I do not pronounce the name correctly. He was a member of the HVO?

A. Ivica -- just a moment, I cannot recall his surname. He was from Busovaca; he was a commander of a section of the Jokers. His surname was Vujica and his first name Ivica. He was a commander of a part of the Jokers.

Q. You said he was rather well disposed towards you or something to that effect?

A. We are not referring to the same thing. There was an Ivica, a member of the HVO, a fighter of the HVO, who was a good man and he let us smoke a cigarette, he let us take a rest. He was very kind. But I was thinking of another Ivica, somebody else called Vujica Ivica.

Q. Now we have clarified that point, you know which Ivica I am talking about. Was there another gentleman who was kindly disposed towards you, Mirko Mares?

A. Yes, there was. Mirko Males who helped me when they came to our building to ask whether there were any able-bodied Muslims in the building and he would not let some of them come in. The people he did not know, he would not let them come into the building.

Q. He was a HVO guard and a Croat?

A. Yes, and he was a good man anyway. He saved people as much as he could, but when the time came that we could ²⁴⁵⁰ not stay there we were forced to be taken away by a colleague of mine, (redacted), who took us to the SDK. I also forgot another man, a young man, his name was Zoran; he also belonged to the HVO.

Q. He was a Croat?

A. Yes he was in the Croatian Defence Council, he wore a camouflage uniform, he had HVO insignia. On one occasion, he even took out a can of liverpaste and gave it to us. "Hide it", he said, "so you will have it for later." He was awfully kind; he also gave us cigarettes. He did not force us to work. He would say, "Rest and when one of the commanders appears, then you get up and work." Whenever any of the guards were there we had to work and when the guards were not there we took a rest.

Q. So there were some Croats who were kind to you although they were in HVO uniforms; is that right?

A. Yes, there were quite a number of Croats whose behaviour was exemplary. There were some who were sorry for us. There were friends of mine who apologised to me for what happened. Somebody called Mladen Prsan, he went to school with me in Vitez. He also was a member of the HVO and when he saw me, he asked me why I was there and I just shrugged and said, "I have no idea." He came up to me, said hello. He gave me a box of filter 160 ²⁴⁵¹ Croatian cigarettes. He said, "Put this in your pocket. That is how things are, I am sorry; it is neither your fault nor mine", but there were such good Croats.

Q. Do you know of other cases in which Croats in the HVO were well disposed to other Muslims?

A. I heard when I went back to SDK after digging that in Pirici, above Ahmici, there was somebody called Dragan, I do not know his surname, who helped the Muslims a lot. He was a commander but the Muslims did not dig under his command. He even sheltered them. He just said, "You stay there until someone else comes to take you over." He would not even let them do any work and I heard this from people who went to Pirici to do the digging and I heard it when I returned to the SDK.

Q. Since leaving Vitez, have you returned?

A. No, I never went back. I would like to very much, but the process of return of refugees has still not started. I hope that it will be possible to return because it is the town I was born in.

Q. Answer me on a last little point. My impression is that you told the International Red Cross that you were a civilian. You remember Mr. Nobilo's questions on the point?

A. Yes, I remember. ²⁴⁵²

Q. You were in the Territorial Defence; is that correct?

A. I was, yes.

Q. You wore a uniform, at least when on duty; is that correct?

A. Yes, I wore a uniform when I was on duty and after working hours I did not wear a uniform.

Q. My recollection is that yesterday you described yourself as a soldier; was that correct?

A. I apologise. Could you explain that a little bit? How did I explain myself as a soldier?

Q. You were answering the Prosecutor and you said this: "When I joined the Territorial Defence, I did not have any special duties; I was a plain soldier." Did that continue to be your understanding of your status in later years?

A. In 1992 when I joined voluntarily the Territorial Defence, we did not have any clothing. We did not have anything; we just reported to the TO staff which was in the process of organisation, because of the JNA aggression against the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I was an ordinary soldier; I had no assignments. I simply reported every other day like everyone else. I would report today, then after two days I would report again. We were waiting for all these blue uniforms from the Soko factory in Mostar. We were in civilian clothes ²⁴⁵³ even though the HVO already had uniforms, and we also wanted uniforms so we could at least resemble soldiers.

Q. Should it be my understanding of your position that you considered yourself to be a soldier if you were in uniform but a civilian if you were not in uniform?

A. Yes, at least that is how I understand it. When I wore a uniform, I was a soldier, and when I was in this kind of clothes, then I am a civilian. At work, one wears a uniform; when I finish work, I wore civilian clothes.

JUDGE SHAHABUDDEN: Thank you, lieutenant.

JUDGE JORDA: I think I am going to give the floor to Judge Riad once again. I think there is a correction to be made at the request of the Defence.

Mr. Registrar -- shall we have a private session for two seconds?

Mr. Hayman, yes? We are now in private session. If we are in private session?

MR. HAYMAN: Are we in private session, your Honour? That last comment was a question.

JUDGE JORDA: Are we? Yes.

(In private session)

(3 lines redacted) ²⁴⁵⁴

(page redacted) ²⁴⁵⁵

(9 lines redacted)

(In open session)

JUDGE RIAD: Lieutenant, in one of your answers to Judge Shahabudden, you spoke of Darko Kraljevic who had his group and were some kind of freelance who worked for themselves and did not obey orders from other sides. Do I understand correctly?

A. Yes, you understood correctly. I cannot say that they did not listen to some other orders as well, I just know what was happening in Vitez. If Darko Kraljevic tells his men to do something then they do it. Then he is behind it and nobody could oppose him.

Q. So it was not submitted to the authority of the HVO or the military police or of anybody?

A. No, he was separate.

Q. Good. Were there other groups like Mr. Darko Kraljevic working on their own? ²⁴⁵⁶

A. I do not know whether there were any other groups. I do not know who Ludvig Pavlovic belonged to, the Ludvig Pavlovic unit. They also made some problems in Vitez for a time. Them too I could not understand; I always wondered how come nobody was held accountable, because when a Muslim cafe was blown up, then people would say it was either the Ludvig Pavlovic unit or Darko Kraljevic's unit, so I do not know under whose control they were.

Q. In the order we saw, paragraph 4, no one was supposed to carry weapons unless the soldiers were going to the front. So how were they supposed to carry weapons around and use them and nobody would control them although the order subjected them to control and to punishment? Were they over the law?

A. I think that nobody dared control them. For instance, a member of Darko's group, nobody -- the civilian police or the MUP -- did not dare control them or ask for any ID papers, even if they wore long-barrelled weapons. As soon as they saw they were in black uniforms and they belonged to Darko Kraljevic's unit, everybody avoided them. I was always terrified of them. I tried to avoid them whenever I could, because I was afraid, having heard the rumours that were going around town about them. ²⁴⁵⁷

Q. Were they so strong that they scared the HVO and the military police, or were they just left to do their job with the blessing of the HVO?

A. I think that the HVO did not fear them, but they just let them do the things they were doing. They had no fear that the HVO would seize them or take their weapons away from them. I think they let them do it, so that -- to make it clear to the Muslims, the civilians and the TO that they should be afraid and they wanted to cause panic amongst the civilian population and among us as the Territorial Defence, that they were the ones who had the power to regulate things, and the people in Vitez feared most Darko Kraljevic's men, because nobody dared dispute them or in cafes where they were drinking; they could shoot, they could do all kinds of things. The civilian police, whether they did not want to or did not dare, but anyway they did not react.

JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Kavazovic, rest assured, I have no questions following the examination and

cross-examination you have been subjected to. So the Tribunal wishes to release you. I know the suffering you have gone through, this was a trial for you; thank you very much for coming to The Hague.

Now the Registrar is going to ask the usher to ²⁴⁵⁸ accompany you out. We wish you return to your country and your town and greatest serenity and tranquility in your future life. Please, Mr. Usher, accompany the witness out.

A. I wish to thank you all. I am glad that things went well, it was a bit tiring and I wish you every success in your work. Goodbye, thank you.

(The witness withdrew)

JUDGE JORDA: Very well, we are now going to have a break of 30 minutes, we will resume at 5.30.

(5.00 pm)

(A short break)

(5.30 pm)

JUDGE JORDA: The hearing is resumed. Madam Registrar, please have the accused brought in.

(Accused brought in)

JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Prosecutor, you have submitted a request today to the colleagues in the Tribunal for protective measures. The Chamber approved them, if I have understood you correctly.

There is translation; can you hear me? Mr. Hayman does not hear me. Mr. Hayman, you are not the object of protective measures, but you cannot hear me.

Mr. Nobilo, can you hear me? ²⁴⁵⁹

MR. HAYMAN: Your voice is distorted, your Honour.

JUDGE JORDA: Maybe I need to be protected too. Very well. Mr. Registrar. Do you hear me? Can you hear me now? Can you hear me?

Mr. Nobilo? With a different voice, a distorted voice?

Mr. Dubuisson? I am told that the button which says minimum and maximum should be reduced to the minimum, should be switched down to the minimum. Is that better now? Can you hear my voice normally now?

You hear me, Mr. Hayman.

MR. HAYMAN: Yes, we are getting an English translation. There is some background distortion, but that may be normal for this procedure. I can hear you now, your Honour.

JUDGE JORDA: Very well. As we are going to adjourn at 6.00 pm because the interpreters are very tired, let us ask the technical service to make sure that tomorrow morning everything is fine.

Is it Mr. Nobilo who cannot hear now?

MR. HAYMAN: He states he is not getting any translation on channel 6, BSC translation.

JUDGE JORDA: That is another problem. What about the booth responsible for channel 6? Is everything okay there? ²⁴⁶⁰ Mr. Nobilo?

Mr. Blaskic is going to help us apparently. Let me repeat my questions.

Mr. Hayman, Mr. Nobilo, can you hear me in your language?

Yes, Mr. Blaskic, you can hear me too, can you?

MR. BLASKIC: Yes, your Honour.

JUDGE JORDA: Everyone can hear me? In that case, Mr. Prosecutor, you have the floor. You have informed the Trial Chamber of a request for protective measures which were granted by the Trial Chamber. It is a witness, Witness D. You have taken the necessary measures which you will quickly describe before the witness is brought in. I think we have to pull down the curtains.

Mr. Prosecutor, you have the floor. Have you anything to add to what I have just said?

MR. KEHOE: No, Mr. President, it is a facial and voice distortion, as well as, as your Honour pointed out, a name that the witness will be using, which is Witness D.

JUDGE JORDA: That is it? In that case, just as I have done for other witnesses, I would like a piece of paper to be given to him with his name and surname, so that he can just say: yes, that is my name. Has that been done? ²⁴⁶¹

MR. KEHOE: Mr. President, I have that sheet of paper in my hand. After consultation with Mr. Dubuisson and Mme Fauveau, I have been instructed to, with the assistance of the usher, give this to the witness after he has come in and been sworn in.

JUDGE JORDA: Very well, but the witness must not himself give his name. We must be careful. Perhaps Mr. Registrar you should warn the witness. I am saying this for the benefit of the gallery: we are going to bring down the curtains until the witness comes in and as soon as he is protected by the screens, the curtains will be lifted. I think that is sufficient, just on this side. We do not need to do it on the other side.

Perhaps you could stay there to make sure that the witness does not pronounce his name. That is not the witness, it is a jurist from the Trial Chamber.

(Witness entered court)

JUDGE JORDA: Witness D, can you hear me?

THE WITNESS: Yes.

JUDGE JORDA: Will you please check without saying anything at all, before taking your oath that the paper given to you corresponds to your identity. It is going to be shown to you. Do not say anything; just tell me yes or no. ²⁴⁶²

THE WITNESS: (Nodded).

JUDGE JORDA: Stay there for another second. You are going to be given the solemn declaration and you are going to read it, the declaration given to you by the Registrar. WITNESS D (sworn)

JUDGE JORDA: Very well. Witness D, you may be seated. The blinds are going to be lifted, but you are fully protected in terms of your voice, your identity and your face, in accordance with the decision taken by the Trial Chamber at the request of the Prosecutor. Mr. Prosecutor, you may begin.

Examined by MR. KEHOE

Q. Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon, sir. Mr. Witness, you are going to have to speak a little louder into those microphones, if you could maybe bend them towards you a little bit. The interpreters cannot hear you. Sir, can you tell the judges where you were born and what year you were born in?

A. I was born in 1960 in Vitez.

Q. Basically, until the outbreak of the conflict, did you, for most of your life, live in the Vitez area?

A. All my life I lived in Vitez.

Q. You said you were born in 1960. Did there come a time when you went into the Yugoslav People's Army and served ²⁴⁶³ your compulsory year of service?

A. Yes, I did my military service in 1970.

Q. Sir, you are going to have to speak up just a little into those microphones because the interpreters cannot hear you, okay? Can you tell us again when you did your military service in the JNA?

A. I did my military service in 1979.

Q. Did you stay in the JNA for a year?

A. One served longer than 15 months. Until December 1980 I stayed in the army.

Q. After you left the JNA, did you come back to the Vitez area?

A. Yes, I came to Vitez and I got a job there and I went on living there.

MR. HAYMAN: Your Honour, we are not getting a translation. I do not know if I am hearing what everyone else is -- it is very loud and difficult to follow.

JUDGE JORDA: Mr. Witness, are you speaking normally? Could you speak a little louder, please?

A. I can speak loudly; I am speaking loudly.

MR. HAYMAN: I think I can more specifically identify one problem, your Honour, and that is to get the English translation, I need to turn my volume way up and then I am also hearing over the same channel the witness's distorted voice at an extremely high volume, so I am ²⁴⁶⁴ hearing a faint English and a very loud distorted live voice of the witness. It is very difficult. I regret the delay, but I need to be able to hear it.

JUDGE JORDA: Can the technical service do something? Mr. Registrar? What about the English booth?

THE REGISTRAR: I think tests were done this morning with the voice of the witness. These tests provided us with the result this morning. Apparently now there is a problem. We need five or ten minutes for a test of the voice.

JUDGE JORDA: Yes, and the judges wanted to continue with this testimony. I fear that, due to technical circumstances, we will have to postpone this hearing. Witness D has to come back again. Can we ask Witness D -- we apologise to you -- could he come back on 24th September at 10.00, hoping that this will allow the technical services to make the necessary arrangements, so these problems of interference of the protective measures do not arise, so that all the parties can hear well and Witness D will be able to testify normally. First of all, I would like the witness to be accompanied out, and before adjourning, we are going to pass into a private session because the Trial Chamber has something to say to the parties.

Witness D, thank you for coming. You will be ²⁴⁶⁵ taken out and asked to come back on 24th September, and we apologise for this inconvenience.

A. Thank you.

(The witness withdrew)

(In private session)

(20 lines redacted) ²⁴⁶⁶

(page redacted) ²⁴⁶⁷

(page redacted) ²⁴⁶⁸

(3 lines redacted)

(5.55 pm)

(Court adjourned until Tuesday, 23rd September 1997)